Why is it that the left blindly support government restriction of civil liberties (lockdowns)? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15139096
lancer345 wrote:You make an unproven blanket statement like that.
Here in France, in numerous cities, there have been protests by completely politically mixed groups, it has nothing to do with the far right.


That's true for the UK as well. Age seems more of a factor than politics in who supports what. Or I should say age is more of a factor in who follows the advice or not. I think America is different because of the "Trump" factor. Trump has made Covid19 political by being so bad at responding to this.
#15139101
The USA is permeated with bad thinking. Individualism and my personal freedom above what is the best thing to do for an entire group to stay safe. Over the years the USA is a nation of individualism above communal values. It will pay the price for it.
#15139102
lancer345 wrote:You make an unproven blanket statement like that.
Here in France, in numerous cities, there have been protests by completely politically mixed groups, it has nothing to do with the far right. I'm baffled by the imbecility of such a post. You're also the kind of person that's going to call the yellow vest movement "far right". Anything that's against the government policies must be far right in your book.

This kind of imbecilic polarising political discourse is abhorrent to democracy. Anyone you dislike and protests in the street is not "far right". You're just soaking up unproven government & progressive-liberal argumentation.

I don't consider the yellow vests right-wing at all. Here in the United States though, the people objecting to basic health and safety measures are all people on the right. Not centrists, not leftists, not pragmatists, but people on the right who all believe the virus is a hoax or a liberal conspiracy. As for me polarizing discourse, that's been done by the idiots in things like the tea party well before I was really politically active. Trump says it's a hoax or not a big deal, and the idiots in the base listen.
#15139161
noemon wrote:The Greek Communists & other Leftists are the ones on the streets protesting the lockdown.

For the Greek left, individual liberty is the highest ideal. The Greek right is the one that used to require "patriotism certificates".

Meanwhile , in an actual socialist republic , Vietnam , the government has effectively contained corona virus by imposing restrictions , and taking precautions .
#15139372
Part of the reason why the American right-wing is rebelling is because there is enough freedom of information and higher-up "leaking" to know when Daddy Gubmint is lying to you. For instance, it's well known in several circles that the COVID numbers are impossibly skewed. There is NO way that the infection rate is as low as they're claiming in a nation like this. Conversely (and you can chalk this up to anecdotal with several family members in medicine), the death toll is way too high, because there is profit to be made in death of this nature. If someone tests positive for COVID at the local doctor's office, drives home, and is hit by a truck and dies, they're a "COVID-related" death according to statistics.

The media is just as complicit. To the media, fear sells.
#15139380
@Goranhammer Standard GOP bullshit talking points. Also, I like how you use "daddy government" as if liberals and leftists actually worship the state when they don't. "Liberal = Big Government, Conservative = small government" is at best an elementary school level of understanding of American politics and it at best is a misrepresentation. Not that everyone who actually is concerned with this virus qualifies as either anyway.
#15139384
Random American wrote:@Goranhammer Standard GOP bullshit talking points. Also, I like how you use "daddy government" as if liberals and leftists actually worship the state when they don't. "Liberal = Big Government, Conservative = small government" is at best an elementary school level of understanding of American politics and it at best is a misrepresentation. Not that everyone who actually is concerned with this virus qualifies as either.


First, your quoted words would actually be correct if you added two letters. As a long-time libertarian, it's abhorrent to see conservatives touted as "small government". If you said smallER government, sure. Libertarians are the true small government people because libertarians don't feel to put a government mandate on morality.

Also, do you worship your father? I know I didn't. However, I did what I was told. Liberals just blindly accept whatever Big Gubmint tells them as fact, and obey without question or exception.
#15139395
Goranhammer wrote:First, your quoted words would actually be correct if you added two letters. As a long-time libertarian, it's abhorrent to see conservatives touted as "small government". If you said smallER government, sure. Libertarians are the true small government people because libertarians don't feel to put a government mandate on morality.

Also, do you worship your father? I know I didn't. However, I did what I was told. Liberals just blindly accept whatever Big Gubmint tells them as fact, and obey without question or exception.

1. I wouldn't even say they support smaller government. Less regulations and programs that help people but not smaller government, as they beef up the military, corporate subsidies, and enforce a surveillance state with even less respect for rights than the Democrats do. The only exception is gun rights. All others, conservatives aren't that good. Not even on free speech, were they pass anti-protest laws, and I found early conservative articles advocating a brutal crackdown on occupy wall street.

2. Liberals don't worship the government and would certainly question one that does things they don't like. Also, supporting a government to do things to protect health and safety isn't worship nor is it oppression.
#15139397
Random American wrote:1. I wouldn't even say they support smaller government. Less regulations and programs that help people but not smaller government, as they beef up the military, corporate subsidies, and enforce a surveillance state with even less respect for rights than the Democrats do. The only exception is gun rights. All others, conservatives aren't that good. Not even on free speech, were they pass anti-protest laws, and I found early conservative articles advocating a brutal crackdown on occupy wall street.

2. Liberals don't worship the government and would certainly question one that does things they don't like. Also, supporting a government to do things to protect health and safety isn't worship nor is it oppression.


1) More military spending is fine because the military is more than just meatsacks with guns in some third-world shithole. The military is doctors, lawyers, engineers, analysts, etc. Also corporate subsidies are okay because they create arguably the most positive externalities of all money given away by government.

I also think we have differing definitions. See, you tend to take the media's definition of protest. I call it as it is: riots. I don't support those.

2) You know what they say about those who would sacrifice liberty for security...
#15139400
Goranhammer wrote:1) More military spending is fine because the military is more than just meatsacks with guns in some third-world shithole. The military is doctors, lawyers, engineers, analysts, etc. Also corporate subsidies are okay because they create arguably the most positive externalities of all money given away by government.

I also think we have differing definitions. See, you tend to take the media's definition of protest. I call it as it is: riots. I don't support those.

2) You know what they say about those who would sacrifice liberty for security...

1. Yes, because your position of keptocratic. Give everything to the rich. Also, there were riots, but there were also protests. One needs to be cracked down on, the other shouldn't. They crack down on both. I don't support cuts to the military either, but with them constantly expanding that budget, the Republicans certainly don't support "smaller government."

2. And you sympathized with a fictional dictator! Liberals aren't the only ones who support restrictions on liberty here.
#15139403
Random American wrote:Yes, because your position of keptocratic. Give everything to the rich.


Actually it's "give everything to the most efficient".

That's why I don't have too much of an issue with the military. They're many things, but inefficient ain't one. Also if giving money to energy corporations means lower costs at the pump, cheaper transportation of goods and streamlined economies then so be it. Corporate welfare is much more utilitarian, in the long run, than just throwing dollar bills from the sky and letting the meager people scramble wildly for them.
#15139405
Goranhammer wrote:Actually it's "give everything to the most efficient".

That's why I don't have too much of an issue with the military. They're many things, but inefficient ain't one. Also if giving money to energy corporations means lower costs at the pump, cheaper transportation of goods and streamlined economies then so be it. Corporate welfare is much more utilitarian, in the long run, than just throwing dollar bills from the sky and letting the meager people scramble wildly for them.

Sometimes. Some subsidies are just corporate welfare and due to campaign contributions and corruption though. Regardless, it doesn't justify abolishing all programs that help poor people, which libertarians love to do. I think of the ideology as stating to society "fuck you, I've got mine" in ideological form and letting people starve and imposing economic policies that further makes that so.
#15139410
Random American wrote:Sometimes. Some subsidies are just corporate welfare and due to campaign contributions and corruption though. Regardless, it doesn't justify abolishing all programs that help poor people, which libertarians love to do. I think of the ideology as stating to society "fuck you, I've got mine" in ideological form and letting people starve and imposing economic policies that further makes that so.


I'm not sure libertarians would want the abolition of all public sector charity. Most just believe that the private sector will compensate for the difference, especially with lower taxation granting them more money to do with as they see fit.

See, what I said about the military is DEFINITELY not what I think about government. In fact, the military might be the pinnacle of efficiency while the government might be the pinnacle of inefficiency.

In addition, I don't believe in unlimited help for the poor. Of course, I'm a self-admitted Social Darwinist. The Democrat party wants people (especially blacks) to be poor, dumb and dependent. It gives them unfettered, inscrutable power. They want the peasants to crawl at their feet for crumbs, looking up in adoration in the process. Fuck that, and fuck them.
#15139569
Random American wrote:@Goranhammer Standard GOP bullshit talking points. Also, I like how you use "daddy government" as if liberals and leftists actually worship the state when they don't. "Liberal = Big Government, Conservative = small government" is at best an elementary school level of understanding of American politics and it at best is a misrepresentation. Not that everyone who actually is concerned with this virus qualifies as either anyway.


Part of the liberal/extreme left do worship the state.
They want the state to act as nanny state, and to support their ideals (BLM, welfare, antifa, etc).
They would love to see a government that enters right wing homes and takes people to jail for thought crime.

The right-wing supports big government in some cases, but most of the time it's more of a laissez faire policy. For example if Antifa didn't riot in the streets, right wingers wouldn't call for their dismantlement. It's when civil unrest is involved that right wingers support crackdowns. On the other hand, extreme leftists want any right winger to be hunted down on the basis of thought alone. This is why they want to apply extreme censorship both online and IRL.

It would be foolish to deny that the extreme left is ideologically borne out of far left marxist ideology imported in the USA around the time of WW2.

Of course I'd venture to say that mainstream liberals like you are completely not on board with marxist ideology.
#15139604
Pants-of-dog wrote:@lancer345

It is a logical contradiction to argue that the left want a bug state and to simultaneously argue that the left wants civil unrest in the form of rioting.

As long as the civil unrest points out the flaws of capitalism the extreme left is not upset.
#15139618
Goranhammer wrote:Actually it's "give everything to the most efficient".

That's why I don't have too much of an issue with the military. They're many things, but inefficient ain't one. Also if giving money to energy corporations means lower costs at the pump, cheaper transportation of goods and streamlined economies then so be it. Corporate welfare is much more utilitarian, in the long run, than just throwing dollar bills from the sky and letting the meager people scramble wildly for them.


Efficiency is third order concept. If you're doing the wrong thing it matters not how efficiently you are doing it.

Capitalism about maximizing profit not delivery of product or service to the public. Capitalism always tends towards rent taking, as it's the most profitable mode of business, getting paid to nothing at all.

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