Should Protestors Against the Lockdowns Be Stopped? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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SHOULD THE ANTI-LOCKDOWN PROTESTORS, STOP OR CONTINUE?

STOP
14
54%
CONTINUE
12
46%
#15139526
Rugoz wrote:It's not crooked if politicians in a winner-takes-all system adjust their political positions to the median voter, in fact that's how the system is supposed to work. What is unfortunate is that politicians have to act as if it was their personal conviction, at least in the US. I would say voters are to blame for that.

It's not crooked, but it is lying. But it's legal to lie. At the end of the day a politician's views on gay marriage (or anything) are 100% irrelevant and I couldn't give a shit, because what matters is their actions and what laws they vote on etc.

In a perfect world every politician would just STFU and we'd judge them entirely on their actions. It's amazing how many people still fall for their verbal bullshit.

I've spent 4 years trying not to listen to the stuff spewing out of Trump's face, except for laughs, because let's face it, the guy is a hilarious troll, and the moral panics of people he purposely triggers with his trolling is almost as funny.
#15139554
Unthinking Majority wrote:The gov didn't give a shit or try to stop the BLM protests. They need to allow protests but possibly come up with reasonable rules, like if you're in a group where a mask.


I'd rather have people protesting in their cars then, like they do in Spain. I think that's the closest to have a socially distanced protest you could get to.
#15139558
@Verv I think that is an ugly thing to say, actually.

It is entirely possible to imagine a country where all immigration policies are logical, and the needs for cheap labor are also covered within these policies. These places exist -- Korea & Japan (as far as I know), are a good example.


Ugly. Oh please. Do try to consider the facts.

Trump and the Republican openly advocate for deporting ALL illegal aliens. They have done it repeatedly. So does this mean, as I said:

@Drlee...it is simply stupid to just want to deport all illegal aliens. I know it, you know it, and every politician in this country knows it.

Illegal immigration, like gay marriage, are simply hot button issues that the right uses to control the less intelligent or savvy members of their base.


Of course it does. You are an intelligent person. Is it "smart" to contemplate deporting OVER 3% of the population? Is it wise to advocate consider deporting over 10.5 million people? And if it is wise to forward this idea as plausible, why is it wise? You tell me?

What I am saying is that the only reason that a politician might even contemplate such lunacy is that there are people who actually imagine it is desirable and then possible. These people consist of: Racists and xenophobes, those who are not intelligent enough to contemplate the issue and those who are too lazy to do the research. What other group would you add?

People pretend such a vision is impossible either because they do not really want to think out the whole line that the position calls for,


Precisely. You said it. The vision of deporting 10.5 million people, many with US citizen minor children, business owners, hard to replace employees is absurd. Those who "think out the whole line that that position calls for" realize that it is neither possible nor desirable.

or because they really, really don't like being called a dog whistler & a racist.


Well I want to hear your argument that this line of thought is not a dog whistle to racist Americans. I think that is pretty obvious. Trump even said it aloud many times when he called them "rapists and murderers" wondered why people from Norway never come here illegally and referred to their homelands as "shit holes". And I am not going to google even more outrageous Trump quotes but you know for a certain fact that they are out there.

But suppose I do what you want. Suppose I imagine how we might deport all of the folks and stop new ones from coming. There really is only one way to do it in any reasonable period of time. That is to sterilize the job market. Take away the jobs and the folks have to go home or go further underground. Mostly go home if we impose harsh enough penalties for the people who are really responsible for illegal immigration...employers who hire them.

Given that it is illegal to hire illegal aliens and I will grant you the miracle of getting harsher legislation on this practice through legislation including retroactive e-Verify, here is how to do it.

There are currently 7100 ICE agents. Starting Monday after the Holiday weekend we send them into business to check the immigration status of everyone who works there. We start with the largest of businesses that we know are the worst offenders. Hospitality (restaurants and hotels), retail, and construction. They arrest every illegal they find and cite into federal court every business owner who has hired them and lacks appropriate documentation to show that they were duped. Simple right? We could set up camps to hold those arrested. We could cite them with identity theft or forgery if they use fake documentation. Those so indited might wind up in prison but we could probably plea bargain them down if they accept deportation. Catch the business in violation three times and we revoke their EIN.

Now this remedy would suck if we caught , oh let's say Kroger in violation three times. It would close and put out of work the employees of "2,752 supermarkets and multi-department stores. Kroger's headquarters are in downtown Cincinnati. It maintains markets in 35 states and the District of Columbia,[7] with store formats that include hypermarkets, supermarkets, superstores, department stores, and 170 jewelry stores . Kroger-branded grocery stores are located in the Midwestern and Southern United States. Kroger operates 35 food processing or manufacturing facilities, 1,575 supermarket fuel centers, 2,258 pharmacies, and 222 The Little Clinic in-store medical clinics.

And then fell Walmart.

Am I being silly? I think not. If this problem is so bad that a presidential candidate and more than half of the senate can win on it then nothing short of an all out war on illegals is warranted. And this proposal of mine is OBVIOUSLY the only one that can work. Those 7100 Ice agents have not even made a dent on illegal immigrants in the US, and frankly, despite the heated political rhetoric, they are not even trying.

You mentioned Japan and Korea. Where did Korea interdict YOUR immigration status? Perhaps they check your visa periodically. Maybe they check you at the border. But the real enforcement comes at your job I'll bet. It certainly does in Japan where it is neigh on impossible for a foreigner to get a work visa without some serious sponsorship. And you are just not going to get one as a farm worker, a construction worker, or a cook. You know better than I but I bet this is true in S. Korea too.

So I am waiting. It this whole issue is not demagoguery then what is your plan that is wise to contemplate?
#15139652
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's not crooked, but it is lying. But it's legal to lie. At the end of the day a politician's views on gay marriage (or anything) are 100% irrelevant and I couldn't give a shit, because what matters is their actions and what laws they vote on etc.

In a perfect world every politician would just STFU and we'd judge them entirely on their actions. It's amazing how many people still fall for their verbal bullshit.

I've spent 4 years trying not to listen to the stuff spewing out of Trump's face, except for laughs, because let's face it, the guy is a hilarious troll, and the moral panics of people he purposely triggers with his trolling is almost as funny.


Politicians first have to make a promise before you can judge them on their actions. Past actions aren't necessarily relevant.

In any case, Obama could have been honest and said I believe in gay marriage but I'm not pursuing it for the time being because the majority doesn't want to. The question is why this kind of honesty is not being rewarded by voters.
#15139669
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's not crooked, but it is lying. But it's legal to lie. At the end of the day a politician's views on gay marriage (or anything) are 100% irrelevant and I couldn't give a shit, because what matters is their actions and what laws they vote on etc.

In a perfect world every politician would just STFU and we'd judge them entirely on their actions. It's amazing how many people still fall for their verbal bullshit.

I've spent 4 years trying not to listen to the stuff spewing out of Trump's face, except for laughs, because let's face it, the guy is a hilarious troll, and the moral panics of people he purposely triggers with his trolling is almost as funny.



Trump proved that you can lie and your followers will ignore. He did what all other politicians have done, but he was way too blatant and obvious. The faithful voter does not care.

Marion Barry the DC mayor was Trump type liar way back and his followers
voted him in. There is even a statue of Barry in DC. If you asked the voters in DC way back then the whole smoking crack incident never happened. Trump type voters are nothing new.

#15139673
Julian658 wrote:Trump proved that you can lie and your followers will ignore. He did what all other politicians have done, but he was way too blatant and obvious. The faithful voter does not care.

Marion Barry the DC mayor was Trump type liar way back and his followers
voted him in. There is even a statue of Barry in DC. If you asked the voters in DC way back then the whole smoking crack incident never happened. Trump type voters are nothing new.


This has nothing to do with the topic.

—————————-

Should someone who knowingly refuses to wear a mask and practice social distancing be held criminally responsible for the threat they are imposing on others?

What if they do it during a protest?
#15139699
Pants-of-dog wrote:This has nothing to do with the topic.

—————————-

Should someone who knowingly refuses to wear a mask and practice social distancing be held criminally responsible for the threat they are imposing on others?

What if they do it during a protest?


A government that puts people on jail for not wearing a mask smells a lot like an authoritarian government. Why do lefties always favor that angle?
#15139700
Pants-of-dog wrote:Should someone who knowingly refuses to wear a mask and practice social distancing be held criminally responsible for the threat they are imposing on others?

What if they do it during a protest?


How would you make sure they go to jail? First step being, well, arresting them.
#15139704
Pants-of-dog wrote:Should someone who knowingly refuses to wear a mask and practice social distancing be held criminally responsible for the threat they are imposing on others?

What if they do it during a protest?

If that's the law at the time, then yes.

And there's no loopholes in the law saying you're able to get away with breaking the law based on your level of outrage.
#15139706
Julian658 wrote:A government that puts people on jail for not wearing a mask smells a lot like an authoritarian government. Why do lefties always favor that angle?

I don't know about jail but at least fines. These people shouldn't be allowed to break the law without punishment. They're putting lives at risk and killing people.

Some people on the right care a lot more about personal liberty than people dying. It's the same with the gun rights issue. These people are nuts.
#15139749
Pants-of-dog wrote:Who has been put in jail?

In Maryland you could go to jail.

Failure to wear a mask in a retail establishment, however, is punishable by up to a year in prison and a $5,000 fine under Hogan's emergency orders.Jul 5, 2020

https://thedailyrecord.com/2020/07/05/m ... y%20orders.
#15139751
Julian658 wrote:In Maryland you could go to jail.

Failure to wear a mask in a retail establishment, however, is punishable by up to a year in prison and a $5,000 fine under Hogan's emergency orders.Jul 5, 2020

https://thedailyrecord.com/2020/07/05/m ... y%20orders.


Has anyone been sent to jail? Yes or no?

And are you arguing that Maryland’s Republican and right wing governor is authoritarian?
#15139752
Unthinking Majority wrote:I don't know about jail but at least fines. These people shouldn't be allowed to break the law without punishment. They're putting lives at risk and killing people.

Some people on the right care a lot more about personal liberty than people dying. It's the same with the gun rights issue. These people are nuts.



It is an issue of principle. BTW, I wear a mask 24/7 and I think it is a good idea to wear a mask. But, I would hate to live in a police state where i could be fined or sent to jail because I forgot my mask.

It has to do with the slippery slope with regards to liberty and personal freedom. This is a bit like the speech anti-racism laws in some Western nations. It is an attempt to control behaviors by the state and it is the next step to an authoritarian government. The mask issue is one where societal pressures can do the job.

Lastly, this is a tricky subject that is ruled by emotion rather than logic. The mortality rate in young people is near zero and it would simply be best to isolate those at risk and allow society and the economy to function normally. Young workers should continue to do their thing. Do not allow the old to ride the subway or go shopping. Create subsidies so the old and sick can stay home in quarantine rather than trying to quarantine the entire population. If I was at risk I would never leave my home or receive my young relatives relatives at home. That is all that needs to be done.



I
#15139754
Pants-of-dog wrote:Has anyone been sent to jail? Yes or no?

And are you arguing that Maryland’s Republican and right wing governor is authoritarian?


Don't be ignorant. The Republican governor of Maryland is a centrist. Maryland is a perennial Democrat state and would never vote for a right winger. I will also add that Governor Hogan is pandering to the liberal left wingers of the state. At the end of the day he is still a politician.
#15139755
Julian658 wrote:Don't be ignorant.


Do not be insulting.

The Republican governor of Maryland is a centrist. Maryland is a perennial Democrat state and would never vote for a right winger. I will also add that Governor Hogan is pandering to the liberal left wingers of the state. At the end of the day he is still a politician.


So, according to your argument, it is actually centrists who are being authoritarian and not leftists, so you are contradicting yourself.

And for the third time, has anyone actually bee arrested? As far as I can tell, there is nowhere in North America where you will be jailed simply because you forgot your mask.

Also, your idea of forcing old people to stay at home is just as authoritarian and has the added drawback of not working.
#15139757
I
n Maryland you could go to jail.

Failure to wear a mask in a retail establishment, however, is punishable by up to a year in prison and a $5,000 fine under Hogan's emergency orders.Jul 5, 2020


Far to light a sentence for attempted homicide.
#15139771
Julian658 wrote:It is an issue of principle. BTW, I wear a mask 24/7 and I think it is a good idea to wear a mask. But, I would hate to live in a police state where i could be fined or sent to jail because I forgot my mask.

It has to do with the slippery slope with regards to liberty and personal freedom. This is a bit like the speech anti-racism laws in some Western nations. It is an attempt to control behaviors by the state and it is the next step to an authoritarian government. The mask issue is one where societal pressures can do the job.

This is a slippery slope fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Lastly, this is a tricky subject that is ruled by emotion rather than logic. The mortality rate in young people is near zero and it would simply be best to isolate those at risk and allow society and the economy to function normally. Young workers should continue to do their thing. Do not allow the old to ride the subway or go shopping. Create subsidies so the old and sick can stay home in quarantine rather than trying to quarantine the entire population. If I was at risk I would never leave my home or receive my young relatives relatives at home. That is all that needs to be done.

The problem is young people spread it to older people, like their parents or grandparents. Schools opened for a couple of months and cases have exploded. Old people have to go out and buy groceries too etc.

Americans have it ass-backwards on dealing with COVID and are dying as a result. 270,000 dead Americans and their families don't care about some person complaining about wearing a mask.
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