Election 2020 - Page 429 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Rugoz
#15140512
Finfinder wrote:You only hear what your echo chamber tells you too. According to your echo chamber mentality OJ simple is completely innocent.


OJ was a single sentence from one court. We're looking at roughly 40 courts here. 40 misjudgements in a row? Impossible. That would require a massive conspiracy in the judicial system, across states, involving both parties.

Rancid wrote:Great question. This might be something new to the modern world though. Who knows.


A loss of trust in the authorities overseeing elections is always part of it. But that mistrust is usually justified to some degree. In this case I really don't think it is.

In fact, I still don't know whether the Trumpsters think the authorities are part of the conspiracy or are being tricked by the evil Dems.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15140513
Rugoz wrote:Is this how all Republics collapse? Because large parts of the population live in a alternate reality? Or is it something uniquely postmodern?


It is called collective consciousness and/or herd mentality. It has always existed and will not go anywhere. The funny thing is that you don't need a lot of people to do this. There are many studies on the subject.

Researchers at Leeds University performed a group experiment where volunteers were told to randomly walk around a large hall without talking to each other. A select few were then given more detailed instructions on where to walk. The scientists discovered that people end up blindly following one or two instructed people who appear to know where they are going. The results of this experiments showed that it only takes 5% of confident looking and instructed people to influence the direction of the other 95% of people in the crowd, and the 200 volunteers did this without even realizing it.


It is a bit more complicated when there is oposition and so on but the basic ideas remain the same. A small minority can easily convince a large amount of people to do anything as long as proper techniques and methods are applied. Social media made the issue worse though. I firmly believe that Trump and his cronies are doing this without understand this. While the people who fall for it usually have a reason to believe in it. But it doesn't change the fact that Trump and his cronies are propagating a lie.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15140515
JohnRawls wrote:It is a bit more complicated when there is oposition and so on but the basic ideas remain the same. A small minority can easily convince a large amount of people to do anything as long as proper techniques and methods are applied. Social made the issue worse though. I firmly believe that Trump and his cronies are doing this without understand this. While the people who fall for it usually have a reason to believe in it. But it doesn't change the fact that Trump and his cronies are propagating a lie.


Question is how many people are falling for it all? What percentage of people have to believe in the alternate Trump reality for it to be destructive to society?
By Rugoz
#15140516
JohnRawls wrote:It is called collective consciousness and/or herd mentality. It has always existed and will not go anywhere. The funny thing is that you don't need a lot of people to do this. There are many studies on the subject.



It is a bit more complicated when there is oposition and so on but the basic ideas remain the same. A small minority can easily convince a large amount of people to do anything as long as proper techniques and methods are applied. Social media made the issue worse though. I firmly believe that Trump and his cronies are doing this without understand this. While the people who fall for it usually have a reason to believe in it. But it doesn't change the fact that Trump and his cronies are propagating a lie.


Everybody ultimately follows somebody in areas outside his expertise. That also applies to politicians. The question is why anybody would follow Trump, who literally creates alternate realities. I mean sure, one could argue it's nothing new historically. I just wonder whether there's a different quality to it this time.
By Finfinder
#15140518
Rugoz wrote:OJ was a single sentence from one court. We're looking at roughly 40 courts here. 40 misjudgements in a row? Impossible. That would require a massive conspiracy in the judicial system, across states, involving both parties.



A loss of trust in the authorities overseeing elections is always part of it. But that mistrust is usually justified to some degree. In this case I really don't think it is.

In fact, I still don't know whether the Trumpsters think the authorities are part of the conspiracy or are being tricked by the evil Dems.


You don't know what people who support thing because you are a bigot. You are forced to collectively group millions of people because the truth doesn't forward your liberal cause. You have gone far down this rabbit hole and have been wrong every time, there is no turning back.
By Rugoz
#15140519
Finfinder wrote:You don't know what people who support thing because you are a bigot. You are forced to collectively group millions of people because the truth doesn't forward your liberal cause. You have gone far down this rabbit hole and have been wrong every time, there is no turning back.


That doesn't answer the question. Are courts and officials part of the conspiracy or is the Dems' dirty tricks only?
User avatar
By ingliz
#15140520
JohnRawls wrote:The election was fair

Of course, it wasn't fair. No American election is fair (gerrymandering, voter suppression, placement of polling places, etc., etc.). But, as @Verv pointed out, American elections aren't there to be fair. Their prime function is to maintain the status quo and keep the 'not us' away from the levers of power.


:lol:
By Rugoz
#15140523
ingliz wrote:Of course, it wasn't fair. No American election is fair (gerrymandering, voter suppression, placement of polling places, etc., etc.). But, as @Verv pointed out, American elections aren't there to be fair. Their prime function is to maintain the status quo and keep the 'not us' away from the levers of power.


:lol:


This is debatable, because everybody can agree on gerrymandering, voter suppression (called differently by proponents) and placement of polling places being real things that affect elections to some degree.
By Pants-of-dog
#15140525
Rancid wrote:Question is how many people are falling for it all? What percentage of people have to believe in the alternate Trump reality for it to be destructive to society?


If @Doug64 is correct, about 50 million people.

And yes, that seems like enough to make problems.

———————

Finfinder wrote:There is no need to back pedal. That was my entire point. All I did was post a link; I didn't comment on metrics. I could have posted my screen name only and nothing else, and we would be at the same place.


Yes, your lack of argument was noted. Fortunately, @Saeko was kind enough to read and critically analyse that source.

I agree with her analysis that the authors deliberately ignored plausible and legal explanations for the anomalous ballot counts.

I don't need anybodies confirmation to have common sense on such things like losing a 900,000 vote lead mysteriously in the middle of the night after they stopped counting.


Again, this is due solely to the mechanisms involved in counting mail ballots. Many polling places were not allowed to start counting these ballots until the close of polls on November 3rd. This would then result in a very large number of ballots being added that night or early in the 4th.

Trump’s allegations about voter fraud and mail in ballots would explain why these mail in ballots would be overwhelmingly for Biden.

And of course, the existence of Covid would explain the disproportionately large number of mail in ballots.

Or ....... 80 % of Republican and 30% of Democrats believe this election was stolen.


An idea is not correct simply because a lot of people believe it.

I think there is enough to look into it. Personally I don't think many of the mail in votes are constitutionally legal, fraud would just be a by product of that.


I do not think you know what fraud is. Fraud requires intentional deceit. If people thought they were voting legally, they cannot be charged with fraud.

And mail in votes are constitutionally legal.

These guys are flipping out because it takes times to make a case and there seems to be some momentum right now with circumstantial evidence. All these court rulings for or against are landmark, so the entire purpose is to get to the Supreme Court.


I will assume that you do not actually know what a landmark case is nor how this relates to getting a case all the way to the SCOTUS.

But please, take your time and build a solid argument.
By Finfinder
#15140530
@POD In your opinion :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you mean in your long long document biased opinion. You brushed off 400 signed affidavits as nothing, you have a preconceived opinion, and you always have to get the last word by deceptively spinning the context. Why would I waste my time you don't have an ounce of intellectual honesty to begin with.
By Pants-of-dog
#15140532
Finfinder wrote:@POD In your opinion :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you mean in your long long document biased opinion.


If you were trying to use the notification system, you failed.

You brushed off 400 signed affidavits as nothing,


No.

I pointed out that many of the affidavits do not deal with illegal acts, and so those are pointless.

Many have no supporting evidence, and so those are also pointless.

And many are based on a misunderstanding of what they saw, where the claimant thinks they saw something illegal but in truth they did not. And so those are pointless too.

you have a preconceived opinion, and you always have to get the last word by deceptively spinning the context. Why would I waste my time you don't have an ounce of intellectual honesty to begin with.


I am sorry if I offended you.

If you think I am not being courteous or respectful, please let moderators know so that they can review my posts and give me whatever warnings or cards they think I deserve. I am sure they will be happy to help.
By Finfinder
#15140535
Rugoz wrote:That doesn't answer the question. Are courts and officials part of the conspiracy or is the Dems' dirty tricks only?


I never said conspiracy that is just your ilks attempt at shaming your opponents when they have a reasonable point or argument. It hasn't worked for 4 years it's not working now. There are many parts to how this election was screwed up and it's not done yet these things take time, you want to run the clock out the sitting president is well within his right to use the legal system. Just like the Russia Russia Russia hoax you were completely wrong about and now 4 years later everyone knows it was fake. Your ilk hasn't rite about much for the last 4 years.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15140538
Finfinder wrote:400 signed affidavits

A Trump campaign attorney conceded in court on Thursday morning that he tried to enter hundreds of dodgy form-filed affidavits into evidence, even though their own investigation found that a subset of the sworn statements that they received were filled with lies and “spam.”

“This is concerning,” Judge Daniel Kiley, from Arizona’s Maricopa County, remarked with some understatement.


— Adam Klasfeld, Trump Campaign Lawyer Admits to Judge: Our Search for Evidence of Fraud Produced Obvious Lies and ‘Spam’ Nov 12th, 2020


:lol:
By Finfinder
#15140541
Finfinder wrote:@POD In your opinion :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you mean in your long long document biased opinion. You brushed off 400 signed affidavits as nothing, you have a preconceived opinion, and you always have to get the last word by deceptively spinning the context. Why would I waste my time you don't have an ounce of intellectual honesty to begin with.


Pants-of-dog wrote:I am sorry if I offended you.
If you think I am not being courteous or respectful, please let moderators know so that they can review my posts and give me whatever warnings or cards they think I deserve. I am sure they will be happy to help.


You just did exactly what I said you'd do ..........Hilarious massive stretch on your part to spin what I posted into you being a victim. You don't have a great handle on the English language if that is what you read from my post. :lol: :lol: :lol: ....... thanks for the good laugh
By Finfinder
#15140542
ingliz wrote:A Trump campaign attorney conceded in court on Thursday morning that he tried to enter hundreds of dodgy form-filed affidavits into evidence, even though their own investigation found that a subset of the sworn statements that they received were filled with lies and “spam.”

“This is concerning,” Judge Daniel Kiley, from Arizona’s Maricopa County, remarked with some understatement.


— Adam Klasfeld, Trump Campaign Lawyer Admits to Judge: Our Search for Evidence of Fraud Produced Obvious Lies and ‘Spam’ Nov 12th, 2020


:lol:



Your selective and deceptive posting does nothing for me.
User avatar
By Wolvenbear
#15140544
ingliz wrote:Of course, it wasn't fair. No American election is fair (gerrymandering, voter suppression, placement of polling places, etc., etc.). But, as @Verv pointed out, American elections aren't there to be fair. Their prime function is to maintain the status quo and keep the 'not us' away from the levers of power.
:lol:


You are conflating "Fair" with "perfect". Gerrymandering, for all it's faults, does not render an election unfair, absent more. That polling places are not convenient for everyone does not make them unfair. And suppression claims are wildly overexaggerated, usually, again, conflating mild inconvenience with inability to vote.

Elections in this country are largely fair. That the majority of our countrymen simply choose R or D no matter what is an indictment of the people themselves, not the system.

Rancid wrote:I agree, if it was all about keeping the status quo. Only white land owners could vote.


Some colonies had no explicit race requirement for voting, but all required landownership. There are records of some black landowners casting votes prior long prior to the Civil War, as even wikipedia notes.

The requirement of landownership was in itself a compromise. The Founders knew that unchecked democracy was a bad thing and led to abuses everywhere it had been tried. By requiring property as a condition to vote, the Founders recognized that the landowner had a reason to be moderate in his vote...as anything he voted for would affect him as well. (Usually, only property owners paid taxes or had certain civil obligations.) Those with no obligations, however, would vote themselves goodies at the expense of the rich and middle classes, as had happened repeatedly. It was another check on the tyranny of the majority, not disenfranchisement or "keeping others out."
By Pants-of-dog
#15140545
@Finfinder

Again, if you think you are the victim of my rudeness, please let moderation know so that this discussion can be cleaned up. Thanks.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15140547
NEWS ALERT!

We have another conspirator in rigging the election. Now Georgia's lieutenant Government is also chiming in on how wrong the Trumptards are.

The conspiracy widens! Everyone and everything under the sun is a part of this conspiracy. :lol:
User avatar
By Goranhammer
#15140550
Rancid wrote:NEWS ALERT!

We have another conspirator in rigging the election. Now Georgia's lieutenant Government is also chiming in on how wrong the Trumptards are.

The conspiracy widens! Everyone and everything under the sun is a part of this conspiracy. :lol:


It's not a conspiracy. It's just Republicans trying to save face and cling to their party. They don't want to be Marxists or Leninists - idiots following a long-dead and powerless fool in nothing more than a cult of personality.

It does the Republican party no good to attach themselves any further to a removed leader. This is basically "rebound talk", in the hope that Trump's followers will hit the dustbin of history and that the party isn't hijacked in the future by a non-swamper with a bullhorn.
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