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#15150764
late wrote:It doesn't matter. Your motives might be racist, or financial, or from some mental problem.

But it doesn't matter, you're broken.

OK, so if I am for reparations I am broken.
Got it.

Is this how an echo chamber operates? Any viewpoint that is different is rejected. All the forum members are expected to have similar viewpoints. Is this 1984? Is this the authoritarian left? Obviously you don't have much to say other than broken.

Carry on!
#15150771
@Julian658 I am so happy you got the opportunity to pretend you're a victim. I am sure this will make your day. :lol:
#15150774
Julian658 wrote:OK, so if I am for reparations I am broken.
Got it.

Is this how an echo chamber operates? Any viewpoint that is different is rejected. All the forum members are expected to have similar viewpoints. Is this 1984? Is this the authoritarian left? Obviously you don't have much to say other than broken.
Carry on!


You are broken because you are a racist extremist. Nobody believes you are for "reparations" as is clearly evident. You are shamelessly arguing that reparations should be a "12 year military school for the children of former slaves". That is not reparations but your transparent excuse to isolate the Black community.

If this were an echo-chamber you would have been banned a long time ago. You do not even have the decency to appreciate the massive rope you have been provided. Just in this thread alone you have fairly been warned twice not to accelerate your racism.

You 're broken indeed and have nothing interesting to contribute. You 're trash and something tells me you're Blackjack's sockpuppet behind a proxy.
#15150808
noemon wrote:You are broken because you are a racist extremist. Nobody believes you are for "reparations" as is clearly evident. You are shamelessly arguing that reparations should be a "12 year military school for the children of former slaves". That is not reparations but your transparent excuse to isolate the Black community.

If this were an echo-chamber you would have been banned a long time ago. You do not even have the decency to appreciate the massive rope you have been provided. Just in this thread alone you have fairly been warned twice not to accelerate your racism.

You 're broken indeed and have nothing interesting to contribute. You 're trash and something tells me you're Blackjack's sockpuppet behind a proxy.

OK, I admit I say incendiary things. I accept your verdict and understand why some may think it is racist.

Did you know the wealthy in the UK pay up to 50,000 pounds a year to send their kids to Eton? Where I live Georgetown Prep is almost as pricey. I sent my daughters to an all girls Catholic prep School. My son went to Gonzaga a prep Jesuit school.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15150941
Did you know the wealthy in the UK pay up to 50,000 pounds a year to send their kids to Eton? Where I live Georgetown Prep is almost as pricey. I sent my daughters to an all girls Catholic prep School. My son went to Gonzaga a prep Jesuit school.


Do consider this. One of the major reasons for why these schools are good, is the student body. You cannot reproduce Eton without two royal princes, the Earl of Camperdown, Adrian Cadbury (in addition to being a zillionaire an Olympic rower), most Rothschields, Cameron and, well, you name it. It is stuffed to the gills with the privileged/blue bloods/old and new money and the occasional scholarship student. You cannot replace this with a barbed wire fenced compound and garden variety school teachers/drill sergeants.

You sent your kids to excellent schools PRECISELY because you knew they could not get a comparable education in the public schools. This argues against your point anyway.

It seems to me that one way to make a dent is to provide vouchers to good private schools. The problem with this is that these vouchers not only rob the public schools of revenue, it also robs them of the best students.

We cannot apply the "solution" at the student level. We have to fix the parents. This comes either from making working pay much better than welfare and offering opportunities right where poor people live. We have to improve the education of the adults and that will go a long way to fixing the kids. Why not, instead of putting a couple of year's remedial schooling to the child, do it to the parent. Would this not encourage the parent to value education for the child? And would it not help lift that parent out of poverty?

What is we required all welfare recipients to attend serious classes to get the money? Four years on welfare = a high school diploma and Associate's degree (or comparable trade school.) Here you go daddy. We will pay your child support as long as you maintain a C average in school up to and including a BA/BS degree. And for heaven's sake, we have to provide professional child care and preschool for poor women who are trying to lift themselves out of poverty.

You see Julian. Poverty is the thing.

I once heard an interview with a famous black professor. I can't find it and have momentarily mislaid the gentleman's name so I will paraphrase. He was asked "why do black people loot and burn the ghettos that are their own neighborhoods and not the wealthy white ones?" His answer intrigued me. I admit I have not fully internalized it, though is sound like genius to me....He said, "you do not destroy that which you respect and desire". Gobsmacked I was. What do you think about that?
#15150979
Drlee wrote:Do consider this. One of the major reasons for why these schools are good, is the student body. You cannot reproduce Eton without two royal princes, the Earl of Camperdown, Adrian Cadbury (in addition to being a zillionaire an Olympic rower), most Rothschields, Cameron and, well, you name it. It is stuffed to the gills with the privileged/blue bloods/old and new money and the occasional scholarship student. You cannot replace this with a barbed wire fenced compound and garden variety school teachers/drill sergeants.

You sent your kids to excellent schools PRECISELY because you knew they could not get a comparable education in the public schools. This argues against your point anyway.


I sent them to Catholic schools because of family tradition. The local public High Schools in Bethesda and Potomac, Maryland are world class. They are as good as any private prep school. My daughters loved being in an all girls high school. They did not have to deal with the pressures of coed school. As a newcomer to America I wanted them to establish life long connections and friends. One of my daughters belonged to the math club and they used to compete with the boys at Georgetown. She can attest many Georgetown Prep boys were not choir boys.


It seems to me that one way to make a dent is to provide vouchers to good private schools. The problem with this is that these vouchers not only rob the public schools of revenue, it also robs them of the best students.


I have no issues with taking the best students and working with them. The NEA will always opposed vouchers because they do not want competition.


We cannot apply the "solution" at the student level. We have to fix the parents. This comes either from making working pay much better than welfare and offering opportunities right where poor people live. We have to improve the education of the adults and that will go a long way to fixing the kids. Why not, instead of putting a couple of year's remedial schooling to the child, do it to the parent. Would this not encourage the parent to value education for the child? And would it not help lift that parent out of poverty?


There are three simple steps that work and help people leave poverty. Avoid teen pregnancy, avoid drugs, graduate from high school. That is a low bar, but it helps tremendously. Delay children till age 28 and only work on self improvement.

What is we required all welfare recipients to attend serious classes to get the money? Four years on welfare = a high school diploma and Associate's degree (or comparable trade school.) Here you go daddy. We will pay your child support as long as you maintain a C average in school up to and including a BA/BS degree. And for heaven's sake, we have to provide professional child care and preschool for poor women who are trying to lift themselves out of poverty.


I cannot believe you are saying that. You sound like me.

You see Julian. Poverty is the thing.

I once heard an interview with a famous black professor. I can't find it and have momentarily mislaid the gentleman's name so I will paraphrase. He was asked "why do black people loot and burn the ghettos that are their own neighborhoods and not the wealthy white ones?" His answer intrigued me. I admit I have not fully internalized it, though is sound like genius to me....He said, "you do not destroy that which you respect and desire". Gobsmacked I was. What do you think about that?


This time there was organized looting of high end stores, but these were not protestors. I believe once a protestor gets high with the crowd the amygdala and limbic system takes over and there is little reasoning. That is the same high among the people storming the Capitol. BTW, many storming the Capitol were middle class with no prior criminal record. Once the amygdala is turned on people do crazy things.


Thomas Sowell grew up in Harlem and went to schools in his neighborhood. The neighborhood schools were much better back them. BTW, TS is 90 and still very active.
Last edited by Julian658 on 19 Jan 2021 02:33, edited 1 time in total.
#15151011
Fasces wrote:Teen pregnancy is a consequence of poverty. It has nothing to do with the sexual revolution. Rates of teen pregnancy have declined since the 40s and 50s.

I'm not talking about teen pregnancy, i'm talking about teen pregnancy out of wedlock, and the single motherhood rate overall, which is a factor in poverty, and affects the black community disproportionately.

Yes as I've previously stated I agree much of this racial discrepancy has to do with poverty, and I also stated this has affected poor white people too. However, it certainly doesn't all have to do with poverty. Births to unmarried mothers has risen dramatically since the 1960's, and absolutely a great deal of this has to do with changing cultural/social norms around pre-marital sex, and especially when we consider the awareness, effectiveness, availability, and cost of birth control has improved by orders of magnitude since 1960, not to mention availability of legal abortions.

Among white people the unmarried birth rate has actually gone up almost 800% since 1960, which is staggering. Nobody can argue white people have become poorer since 1960, and certainly not 800% poorer. The moral/religious norm in the 1950's was to avoid having sex before marriage.

Image
#15151013
Unthinking Majority wrote:I'm not talking about teen pregnancy, i'm talking about teen pregnancy out of wedlock, and the single motherhood rate overall, which is a factor in poverty, and affects the black community disproportionately.

Yes as I've previously stated I agree much of this racial discrepancy has to do with poverty, and I also stated this has affected poor white people too. However, it certainly doesn't all have to do with poverty. Births to unmarried mothers has risen dramatically since the 1960's, and absolutely a great deal of this has to do with changing cultural/social norms around pre-marital sex, and especially when we consider the awareness, effectiveness, availability, and cost of birth control has improved by orders of magnitude since 1960, not to mention availability of legal abortions.

Among white people the unmarried birth rate has actually gone up almost 800% since 1960, which is staggering. Nobody can argue white people have become poorer since 1960, and certainly not 800% poorer. The moral/religious norm in the 1950's was to avoid having sex before marriage.

Image

Marriage has disappeared in the poor and middle class. Among the middle class marriage was 90% in the 1960s. Today in 2021 the rate of marriage only remains high among the upper economic class. They know that with marriage kids do better and that there is consolidation of resources.
Last edited by Julian658 on 19 Jan 2021 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
#15151017
noemon wrote:Do not underestimate my intelligence racist troll.

You spoke for the need of education for those who need it. Not all "the descendants of slaves" need education, lots of them are more educated than you, while White and Latin trash like yourself also may require education in your "special military Eton", but for you that is reserved only for "the descendants of slaves".

Do not make any more racist extremism.

I don't understand this reaction. It's not racist to point out the poverty disparity among African-Americans (ie: descendants of slaves) as a whole or the fact that slavery and racism has been a major factor in this disparity.

@Julian658 brought up how Democrats have failed to fix black poverty in America and argued that doing more of the same won't work. He has proposed reparations for slavery in the form of improving education, specifically free military boarding schools to provide good education and teach discipline. In other words, he's proposing free admission to military Hogwarts. I don't see anything inherently racist about that. Though talking about "interning" kids from broken homes is a bit much.

You're inferring racist things he's not saying. That said, I also don't read anywhere near all of Julian's posts so maybe i'm naive or missing something here?

I agree in general with most of Julian's proposal. I certainly wouldn't force any descendants of slaves to attend, I would simply offer this free education to all those parents who want it, and the results would likely speak for themselves, which would incentivize more parents to send their kids. As you mention, certainly not all descendants of slaves would need this education (ie: you example, Obama's kids), and they have the choice not to send their kids. On top of this, I would generally improve education in all public schools so that anyone living in a poor community would not have substandard education compared to public schools in non-poor communities, and this would help people of all races succeed.

Edit: If I had the power I would also end for-profit colleges/universities, end sports scholarships, increase academic scholarships especially for low income families, and would make colleges/universities subsidized by gov in order to vastly reduce tuition so it could be more affordable for everyone.
Last edited by Unthinking Majority on 19 Jan 2021 03:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15151018
Julian658 wrote:Marriage has disappear in the poor nd middle class. Among the middle class marriage was 90% in the 1960s. Today in 2021 the rate of marriage only remains high among the upper economic class. They know that with marriage kids do better and that there is consolidation of resources.

I think the dramatic rise in dual-income families have made it that much harder for single parents to escape poverty.

I know a woman with kids whose husband left her and he's MIA so no child support. She has a very good job making about 100k, but 100k is only about an average household income for a dual-income couple (considering an average individual income is about 50k). 50 years ago when most married families were still single income she'd be upper-middle class but in 2021 she's only middle class. If she went to buy a new home she's bidding against couples with 2 incomes. I couldn't imagine being a single mother trying to raise kids on 30-40k salary.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15151026
@Unthinking Majority
On top of this, I would generally improve education in all public schools so that anyone living in a poor community would not have substandard education compared to public schools in non-poor communities, and this would help people of all races succeed.


If you do this why bother with the very expensive and largely misunderstood military schools.

Let offer an example of why this is so difficult.

Most people looking at poorly performing schools bring up discipline. This is the thing that most easily allows them to "blame" the kids and their parents. But let me ask you. If you school is a poor school is it not understandable that the kids do not respect the education they know they are NOT getting. Could a kid not say, "If you want me to respect the schools then give me access to a respectable education". It is a chicken/egg thing in some ways.

So then people say, "if a kid is going to act out at school and spoil discipline for others then kick him/her out". Ok. And then do what with him/her? They become the very problem you are tying to solve.

As a conservative I am prepared to agree that there is a roll for private schools in this problem but we can't make the private schools intellectual graveyards in the process. Part of the problem is our national fixation with STEM education. There is little to be gained by forcing little Johnny to take Algebra 3 and Trig when what you get for your trouble is a failing student, a failing school, and a kid, who wants to be a policeman unable to do it because he couldn't master a class that is irrelevant to his life goals. We are blowing students out of a system that is not doing its job. The job of the public schools is not to try to make every student live or die by some artificial STEM goals Note that the part that is almost never funded and almost always more honored in the breach than the observance is the "T"....Technology. (At least other than Computer Science.)

But again UM. Here is food for thought. We consider certain jobs to be bad jobs. The list is increasing rapidly. When I was a kid one could earn a middle class wage working at the local hardware store. No longer. To answer this for me. It the problem that these jobs are not good, honorable and necessary or is it that they do not pay enough? Back to the minimum wage. But consider what you just posted. A $15.00 per hour job is $30,000 per year.

According to the National Employment Law Project, 42.4 percent of American workers currently make less than $15 an hour.


I think the number you posted about $100K is inaccurate. If you look at the bottom 90% of American workers the number is $37K per year per worker. The Average family income is in the $50's I think. In the Top 10% it is $158K and in the top 1% a whopping $736K.

So there you go.

There is a story about a famous bank robber named Willie something. When asked why he robbed banks he famously replied, "because that is where the money is". Why tax the super wealthy? That is where the money is. For most of our history we have had a robust middle class. That is dying rapidly. For most of our history the taxes on the wealthy were extremely high (as much as 90%) and we had a highly paid middle class and very wealthy people. Now we are told that can't happen. Well it did happen. And it could again.
User avatar
By noemon
#15151040
Unthinking Majority wrote:I don't understand this reaction. It's not racist to point out the poverty disparity among African-Americans (ie: descendants of slaves) as a whole or the fact that slavery and racism has been a major factor in this disparity.

@Julian658 brought up how Democrats have failed to fix black poverty in America and argued that doing more of the same won't work. He has proposed reparations for slavery in the form of improving education, specifically free military boarding schools to provide good education and teach discipline. In other words, he's proposing free admission to military Hogwarts. I don't see anything inherently racist about that. Though talking about "interning" kids from broken homes is a bit much.

You're inferring racist things he's not saying. That said, I also don't read anywhere near all of Julian's posts so maybe i'm naive or missing something here?

I agree in general with most of Julian's proposal. I certainly wouldn't force any descendants of slaves to attend, I would simply offer this free education to all those parents who want it, and the results would likely speak for themselves, which would incentivize more parents to send their kids. As you mention, certainly not all descendants of slaves would need this education (ie: you example, Obama's kids), and they have the choice not to send their kids. On top of this, I would generally improve education in all public schools so that anyone living in a poor community would not have substandard education compared to public schools in non-poor communities, and this would help people of all races succeed.

Edit: If I had the power I would also end for-profit colleges/universities, end sports scholarships, increase academic scholarships especially for low income families, and would make colleges/universities subsidized by gov in order to vastly reduce tuition so it could be more affordable for everyone.


So you agree with me "but you do not understand why?" :lol:

He says round up only the "children of slaves" and put them in a military boarding school but you don't get why and how this is "racist"?

You repeat my own argument verbatim but allegedly fail to comprehend it?

If he said what I said and you agreed, obviously that would not be racism, but he didn't. He said that his suggestion would apply only to the "descendants of slaves" regardless if they need it and not to the white and latin trash that may need it.

That is racism and at an extreme level too.
#15151057
Unthinking Majority wrote:I don't understand this reaction. It's not racist to point out the poverty disparity among African-Americans (ie: descendants of slaves) as a whole or the fact that slavery and racism has been a major factor in this disparity.

@Julian658 brought up how Democrats have failed to fix black poverty in America and argued that doing more of the same won't work. He has proposed reparations for slavery in the form of improving education, specifically free military boarding schools to provide good education and teach discipline. In other words, he's proposing free admission to military Hogwarts. I don't see anything inherently racist about that. Though talking about "interning" kids from broken homes is a bit much.

You're inferring racist things he's not saying. That said, I also don't read anywhere near all of Julian's posts so maybe i'm naive or missing something here?

I agree in general with most of Julian's proposal. I certainly wouldn't force any descendants of slaves to attend, I would simply offer this free education to all those parents who want it, and the results would likely speak for themselves, which would incentivize more parents to send their kids. As you mention, certainly not all descendants of slaves would need this education (ie: you example, Obama's kids), and they have the choice not to send their kids. On top of this, I would generally improve education in all public schools so that anyone living in a poor community would not have substandard education compared to public schools in non-poor communities, and this would help people of all races succeed.

Edit: If I had the power I would also end for-profit colleges/universities, end sports scholarships, increase academic scholarships especially for low income families, and would make colleges/universities subsidized by gov in order to vastly reduce tuition so it could be more affordable for everyone.


Thanks for your post. I always agree with your point of view and you certainly have a kindler nicer way of expressing it. Some of the high end pricey prep schools where discipline is emphasized have intern students. Some wealthy parents believe that it is a good thing. In America kids go away to school in college, so why not high school.

I don't know if you are in America or not. Over here reparations for slavery has always been an issue. Most activists simply want cash, but I believe it would be best to simply provide the best education in the world for free. The issue is who qualifies.
User avatar
By noemon
#15151059
As I already told you posts back, if you had actually said that your "military boarding academy would be for those who need it" whoever that may be, noone would have said you 're being a racist.

Because there is nothing racist about that. Trying to photograph the "descendants of slaves" as the only people who should go to your military academy regardless if they need it and exclude the white and latin trash that may do is what is racist.

If you both fail to comprehend this simple thing then clearly there is an issue.

Copy/pasting my own argument to nominally disagree with me is extremely sinister.
#15151063
Drlee wrote:There is a story about a famous bank robber named Willie something. When asked why he robbed banks he famously replied, "because that is where the money is".

That would be Willie Sutton. Smart guy. Lol.

Why tax the super wealthy? That is where the money is. For most of our history we have had a robust middle class. That is dying rapidly. For most of our history the taxes on the wealthy were extremely high (as much as 90%) and we had a highly paid middle class and very wealthy people. Now we are told that can't happen. Well it did happen. And it could again.

No it couldn't. The super wealthy hated paying 90% of their income to the US government, and they lobbied long and hard to stop it from happening. It's even possible to argue that they built up Objectivism and Libertarianism with the aim of brainwashing the ordinary working stiffs of American that it was in their own interests to let the super wealthy keep all their money. And it worked. There's no going back now, in the age of Trumpism and QAnon.
By late
#15151075
Potemkin wrote:
There's no going back now

in the age of Trumpism and QAnon.



We did it before.

Manana, that age comes to a whiny halt.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15151078
It's even possible to argue that they built up Objectivism and Libertarianism with the aim of brainwashing the ordinary working stiffs of American that it was in their own interests to let the super wealthy keep all their money. And it worked. There's no going back now, in the age of Trumpism and QAnon.


Perhaps not. It is important though to get the idea out there that it could happen.

The HUGE numbers of votes that Trump got, especially from the working class, clearly argues for your position.
#15151079
Drlee wrote:
The HUGE numbers of votes that Trump got, especially from the working class, clearly argues for your position.



Movements rise and fall all the time. A big part of this one is a cult of personality, and that personality is in decline in nearly every way.

This isn't to say that all our problems go away. But now that the FBI is off the leash, they can deal to the psychotics, and the ones that are not rabid usually back off when they see people going to jail, and the disgust.
#15151088
late wrote:Movements rise and fall all the time. A big part of this one is a cult of personality, and that personality is in decline in nearly every way.

This isn't to say that all our problems go away. But now that the FBI is off the leash, they can deal to the psychotics, and the ones that are not rabid usually back off when they see people going to jail, and the disgust.


Trump is a goner.
Hopefully a Republican centrist emerges as a candidate in 2024. The fact that the worst president in US history got 74 million votes also suggests the Dems have a flawed message. This is a big moment for Biden.
By late
#15151089
Julian658 wrote:
The fact that the worst president in US history got 74 million votes also suggests the Dems have a flawed message.



Kind of, too many Dems are too beholden to corporate interests.

DINO, if you want to be blunt about it.
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