China vaccinates people up to 59 y.o. criticises west for vaccinating the elderly - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15151014
Politics_Observer wrote:@Igor Antunov

I personally have put those Balkan wars behind me and I don't judge Serbia based on the past but on what it does today. It seems that Serbia has a better government these days. I think the U.S. should consider increasing trade and relations with Serbia.


All outsiders should consider is what can country ### offer for trade and vice versa. That way you avoid conflict.

Has Serbia been joining the EU as well? Has the EU accepted Serbia? This would be good for Serbia.


Serbia has a fairly low economic base but huge prospects; short term the influx of any capital German included would be good for development. But in return it loses control of its economic sovereignty meaning it loses the ability to receive direct investment from China after it joins the EU. Germany would dictate who gets what from China and others outside the bloc. Why put all eggs in one basket? The Serbian government is accepting warm relations from all sides. Not demolishing any bridges. This is smart for a developing market. So it should maintain the status quo. If EU wishes to invest, let it. If there are political demands attached, then no dice. Serbia is currently undergoing major investment from China (biggest in Balkans) and is set to become a hub on the new silk road. Once that is complete see what amicable economic offers EU (cough Germany cough) makes. Accept major trade with all sides would work best for Serbia.

Germany threw Greece under the bus. Sure Greece was mismanaged and unstable, but it actively sought to punish Greece using the euro regime, a fellow EU member. So Greece said fuck you and opened itself up to massive Chinese investment. So sure you can be in the EU and still play multiple sides, but this induces conflict and you will get burnt by one side or another if you step off the plantation. Better for Serbia to not get too close with anyone policy wise. Just enough to maintain healthy economic ties, that's it. China has demonstrated it can play at this level while respecting sovereignty. Things like the Chinese debt trap are fantasy, just western projection. Best to borrow money from China too. Stay away from the IMF and EU.
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#15151020
@Igor Antunov

From what I have been reading online, a lot of this is not really "investment" so much as loans for Serbia to build it's infrastructure. It's infrastructure financing. This is not real investment Igor as far as I can tell. Investment is having foreign companies come in and set up shop, hire locals and doing business, thus helping Serbia's economy without putting it into debt. I would be leary over any sort of infrastructure financing China might be offering your country.
#15151027
@Igor Antunov saaaid:

@Drlee clearly has an irrational axe to grind. He's out to destroy me, can't work with that. Take a chill pill.


:eh: Paranoid much? Tell me Igor. How exactly is a consultant from Southwest USA a threat to you at all?

Stop talking unbalanced trash and I will leave you alone. Keep encouraging people not to be vaccinated and I will continue to expose you for the dangerous crackpot you are.
#15151033
Drlee wrote:@Igor Antunov saaaid:



:eh: Paranoid much? Tell me Igor. How exactly is a consultant from Southwest USA a threat to you at all?

Stop talking unbalanced trash and I will leave you alone. Keep encouraging people not to be vaccinated and I will continue to expose you for the dangerous crackpot you are.


China, Korea and Japan proved isolation and masks work best at containing this particular virus. You're the one promoting experimentation of an unproven technology. Kind of reckless imo.

From what I have been reading online, a lot of this is not really "investment" so much as loans for Serbia to build it's infrastructure. It's infrastructure financing. This is not real investment Igor as far as I can tell. Investment is having foreign companies come in and set up shop, hire locals and doing business, thus helping Serbia's economy without putting it into debt. I would be leary over any sort of infrastructure financing China might be offering your country.


That HBIS steel factory for example is exactly that, a Chinese company came in and made it profitable. Now the state is collecting profits from it and locals are being employed collecting salaries. As for 'muh debt traps' I showed a graph proving otherwise. So no. It's not just infrastructure financing. It's china going in and building actual utilities and industrial capacity.
#15151048
Igor Antunov wrote: So Greece said fuck you and opened itself up to massive Chinese investment.


A Chinese company bought a couple of Greek ports that were on sale under an open international tender. They could have been picked up by anyone. Cosco started this investment in Greece in the year 2000 way before the crisis.

Cosco has bought a lot more US and European ports.

Igor Antunov wrote:If EU wishes to invest, let it. If there are political demands attached, then no dice.


Right, like when Turkey was to get the vaccines she paid for from China, she had to offer up human sacrifices, literally! and hand over Muslim Uighurs to China just for the privilege of having her order, handed over. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Or like your own country of residence, Australia who got Chinese sanctions just for merely saying that "the origins of the Wuhan virus must be investigated"

And you would rather do business with that, than with Germany, France, Greece and Italy.

Mmmmkay...
#15151052
Politics_Observer wrote:From what I have been reading online, a lot of this is not really "investment" so much as loans for Serbia to build it's infrastructure. It's infrastructure financing. This is not real investment Igor as far as I can tell. Investment is having foreign companies come in and set up shop, hire locals and doing business, thus helping Serbia's economy without putting it into debt. I would be leary over any sort of infrastructure financing China might be offering your country.


The Chinese see Serbia as a backdoor into the EU. It's rather naïve, though. If Serbia wants close relations with the EU or EU membership, it'll have to abide by EU rules, including our common rules on investment from China. China is also trying to divide the EU by establishing special relations with individual EU members including Hungary, Italy, Greece or Portugal. In the end, the benefits of the EU single market by far outweigh any perks the Chinese may be able to offer individual countries.

The Chinese still have a long way to go before they can play the divide and conquer game as skillfully as the Anglo imperialists.
#15151077
China, Korea and Japan proved isolation and masks work best at containing this particular virus.


This is true. Can you post where I said that masks and isolation does not work? No you can't. You said something stupid and are now trying weasel out of it.


You're the one promoting experimentation of an unproven technology.


On the contrary. I am promoting the administering a carefully studied technology and hastily created though tested vaccine because we are on track to lose a half of a million Americans and have already lost 2 million worldwide.

Kind of reckless imo


Your opinion on this has meaning and that meaning is dangerous. You are encouraging people not to be vaccinated which will kill them. How very totalitarian of you. You probably feel right at home.

Oh yea. For those who cannot maintain a strict quarantine, the vaccine works way better at preventing the disease.
#15151080
@Atlantis @Igor Antunov

That's what I think the Chinese are doing is preying on Serbia to use Serbia as a backdoor to the EU and play the divide and conquer game with the EU. I do think Serbia would be better off in the long term being a member of the EU. Not sure why the Brits decided to bail on the EU, but I thought that was against their own interests. I think the U.S. could provide a better alternative for Serbia by offering trade relations that do not involve predatory loans to Serbia. This could in turn also help to check Chinese influence in Europe. And Serbia would benefit as well. If I were Serbia, I would in turn do the same game that Yugoslavia did between the U.S. and the Soviet Union: play them against each other to get the best deal. That being said, I think the U.S. should also see about assisting Serbia in the long term to become an accepted member of the EU without any sort of Chinese influence. The EU is not necessarily a bad thing for American interests.
#15151107
MistyTiger wrote:Yes, we are guinea pigs. But I need to work.


This honestly sounds like the mumblings of someone in a prison in a very poor country. One that has been corrupted by a megalomaniac dictator who uses his own "subjects" like lab rats and slaves.

Thanks for the honesty, Misty!
#15151199
QatzelOk wrote:This honestly sounds like the mumblings of someone in a prison in a very poor country. One that has been corrupted by a megalomaniac dictator who uses his own "subjects" like lab rats and slaves.

Thanks for the honesty, Misty!


Sure. I say it like it is. I don't see a better solution. To not take a vaccine would be thoughtless of me. If the vaccine can keep me healthy for a few years, then so be it. I want to be healthy so I don't spread the virus to anyone in my family. I can't just do nothing.

I don't mumble. I contemplate or brood about thoughts. I ramble even. :lol:
#15151203
Politics_Observer wrote:@Atlantis @Igor Antunov

That's what I think the Chinese are doing is preying on Serbia to use Serbia as a backdoor to the EU and play the divide and conquer game with the EU. I do think Serbia would be better off in the long term being a member of the EU. Not sure why the Brits decided to bail on the EU, but I thought that was against their own interests. I think the U.S. could provide a better alternative for Serbia by offering trade relations that do not involve predatory loans to Serbia. This could in turn also help to check Chinese influence in Europe. And Serbia would benefit as well. If I were Serbia, I would in turn do the same game that Yugoslavia did between the U.S. and the Soviet Union: play them against each other to get the best deal. That being said, I think the U.S. should also see about assisting Serbia in the long term to become an accepted member of the EU without any sort of Chinese influence. The EU is not necessarily a bad thing for American interests.


There's no ulterior motive. Serbia has a left over industrial base from Yugoslav days and can't afford to activate it. China is footing the bill to improve Serbia's condition in return for Serbia allowing China new silk road access via Serbia.

Chinese Copper Mine in Bor.
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#15151229
Igor Antunov wrote:There's no ulterior motive. Serbia has a left over industrial base from Yugoslav days and can't afford to activate it. China is footing the bill to improve Serbia's condition in return for Serbia allowing China new silk road access via Serbia.

After what was done to Serbia by the rest of Europe and NATO... China will be a hero.

A lot of other countries could benefit from ANY OTHER development model other than the West's "bomb and pillage" model of the last 50 years.
#15151247
QatzelOk wrote:After what was done to Serbia by the rest of Europe and NATO... China will be a hero.

A lot of other countries could benefit from ANY OTHER development model other than the West's "bomb and pillage" model of the last 50 years.


Well, that's so obvious it didn't need to be stated. Of course.
#15151252
Igor Antunov wrote:Well, that's so obvious it didn't need to be stated. Of course.


For a former Yugoslavian you sure have not tried to understand why the situation happened. You are blaming the US and Europe for putting down the conflict, but NATO didn't act for couple of years if you haven't forgotten wishing for the conflict to go away.

You also have an example of how this conflict COULD have been resolved peacefully before it even started. Yugoslavian problems didn't not appear over night nor were they not predictable.

One of the main reasons the Soviet Union dissolved is to prevent a similar to Yugoslavia situation because the alternative was to supress different dissenting nationalities. USSR did it willingly and had a lot less conflict compared to Yugoslavia who did not do it. The examples are almost identical, or at least as identical as they could be given the significance of those historical events.
#15151257
Soviet union dissolved mostly peacefully because every constituent people were mostly confined to their respective republics. Where there was overlap wars occured and conflicts continue to occur. Yugoslav war was really the three way bosnian-croat-serb war over various territories across the bosnian and croat republics because the populations were so mixed, especially in the socialist republic of bosnia-herzegovina. There is zero resemblance with the soviet union beyond situations on its periphery eg ukraine and the caucuses.
#15151259
Igor Antunov wrote:Soviet union dissolved mostly peacefully because every constituent people were mostly confined to their respective republics. Where there was overlap wars occured and conflicts continue to occur. Yugoslav war was really the three way bosnian-croat-serb war over various territories across the bosnian and croat republics because the populations were so mixed, especially in the socialist republic of bosnia-herzegovina. There is zero resemblance with the soviet union except for the usual-foreign powers supporting and propping up further chaos and non state militias. 5,000 saudis fought in the yugoslav wars, with full western support. Arms, transport, you name it.


Are you really saying this for real? Soviet Union made a mess of nationalities and borders. There are insane amount of Russians in every Soviet Republic and other nationalities mixed around. On top of their being dozens of times more of nationalities around in the USSR compared to Yugoslavia. The situation in the Soviet Union was twice if not thrice worse compared to Yugoslavia and the dissolution of the USSR was FAR, FAR more peaceful both in per capita and even total terms compared to Yugoslavia.

The conflict in Yugoslavia was a consequence of attempting to hold the country together. I am not sure why the far more complicated situation in USSR was possible to resolve peacefully and agree but Yugoslavia was not. But blaming Yugoslavian conflict created by Yugoslavians and fighting Yugoslavians on the "West" because they put the conflict down is dishonest.

NATO just crunched the numbers and decided that it will be far better to just put the conflict down and stop it because it was already causing problems in the region for a long time. Even that, NATO did with a large delay hoping not to get involved. The alternative was to just watch which, knowing what we know now, would have been far worse. NATO did the right thing.
#15151262
JohnRawls wrote:For a former Yugoslavian you sure have not tried to understand why the situation happened. You are blaming the US and Europe for putting down the conflict, but NATO didn't act for couple of years if you haven't forgotten wishing for the conflict to go away.

No, NATO came in after a "civil war" had been started by "who knows who." The original color revolution, complete with Muslim fighters from "who knows where."

Of course, the CIA and EU's ability to foment civil wars in countries with resources they desire... is one of their specialties. And Kosovo had the largest deposits of untapped coal in Europe - which many other rich nations in Europe need.

Plus, after the Soviet Union dissolved, there was no one to protect any socialist country with steal-able resources.


One great thing that the destruction of Yugoslavia did... it revealed that Europeans had no more respect for other Europeans than they do from their "backyard" countries further south and east. Why do you think your leaders have any more respect for you personally?
#15151271
Nobody in the West should be taking China's advice on health and safety. China's unsanitary practices are the reason we have this virus in the first place.

Frankly, absolutely no information about any subject from anyone in China should be trusted without verification because they rarely if ever have our best interests in mind.

Also, why are you quoting sources from the official newspaper of the CCP, is as if they have any credibility?

Also, why did twitter ban Trump but The Global Times is allowed to have a twitter account that spreads all sorts of lies?

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