Manufacturing Consent: On Way Out, Pompeo Says Chinese Treatment of Uyghers is 'Genocide' - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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WASHINGTON (AP) — On his way out the door, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo lashed out anew at China on Tuesday by declaring that its policies on Muslims and ethnic minorities in the western Xinjiang region constitute “crimes against humanity” and a “genocide.” The rarely used designation is sure to provoke an angry response from Beijing.

Pompeo made the determination just 24 hours before President-elect Joe Biden takes office. There was no immediate response from the incoming Biden team, although he and members of his national security team have expressed support for such a designation in the past.

Pompeo’s determination does not come with any immediate repercussions although the legal implications mean the U.S. must take it into account in formulating policy toward China. The U.S. has spoken out and taken action, implementing a range of sanctions against senior Chinese Communist Party leaders and state-run enterprises that fund the architecture of repression across Xinjiang.

Many of those accused of having taken part in the repression are already under U.S. sanctions. The genocide designation means new measures will be easier to impose.

“After careful examination of the available facts, I have determined that since at least March 2017, the People’s Republic of China, under the direction and control of the Chinese Communist Party, has committed crimes against humanity against the predominantly Muslim Uyghurs and other members of ethnic and religious minority groups in Xinjiang,” Pompeo said in a statement.

“In addition, after careful examination of the available facts, I have determined that the PRC, under the direction and control of the CCP, has committed genocide against the predominantly Muslim Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minority groups in Xinjiang. I believe this genocide is ongoing, and that we are witnessing the systematic attempt to destroy Uyghurs by the Chinese party-state.”

A main reason cited for the declaration of genocide was widespread forced birth control among the Uighurs, which The Associated Press documented last year. Another reason cited, Uighur forced labor, has also been linked by AP reporting to various products imported to the U.S., including clothing and electronic goods such as cameras and computer monitors.

Tuesday’s move is the latest in a series of steps the outgoing Trump administration has taken against China.

Since last year, the administration has steadily ramped up pressure on Beijing, imposing sanctions on numerous officials and companies for their activities in Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong and the South China Sea.

Those penalties have gotten harsher since the beginning of last year when President Donald Trump and Pompeo began to accuse China of trying to cover up the coronavirus pandemic. Just on Saturday, Pompeo lifted restrictions on U.S. diplomatic contacts with Taiwanese officials, prompting a stern rebuke from China, which regards the island as a renegade province.

Five days ago, the administration announced it would halt imports of cotton and tomatoes from Xinjiang with Customs and Border Protection officials saying they would block products from there suspected of being produced with forced labor.

Xinjiang is a major global supplier of cotton, so the order could have significant effects on international commerce. The Trump administration has already blocked imports from individual companies linked to forced labor in the region, and the U.S. has imposed sanctions on Communist Party officials with prominent roles in the campaign.

China has imprisoned more than 1 million people, including Uighurs and other mostly Muslim ethnic groups, in a vast network of concentration camps, according to U.S. officials and human rights groups. People have been subjected to torture, sterilization and political indoctrination in addition to forced labor as part of an assimilation campaign in a region whose inhabitants are ethnically and culturally distinct from the Han Chinese majority.

China has denied all the charges. China says its policies in Xinjiang aim only to promote economic and social development in the region and stamp out radicalism. It also rejects criticism of what it considers its internal affairs.

The genocide designation is a rare step for the U.S. government, which did not apply it to the 1994 mass killings in Rwanda until much later.

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell designated the situation in Sudan’s western Darfur region a genocide in 2004. Former Secretary of State John Kerry applied the term to the Islamic State’s repression and massacres of Yazidis and other ethnic and religious minorities in Syria and Iraq in 2016, but he couched it by saying it was a legal determination only that did not mandate action by the U.S. government.

Human rights groups, which have been generally critical of Trump administration policies, welcomed the move, which Pompeo said was taken with an eye toward the U.S. role in prosecuting Nazi war crimes during WWII at the Nuremberg trials.

“We hope to see the U.S. follow these strong words with decisive action,” said Grant Shubin of the Global Justice Center. “Where there is a risk of genocide, there is a duty to act. Moving forward, this designation should inform the entirety of U.S. foreign policy and we hope to hear more from the incoming Biden administration on how it plans to follow through on this historic announcement.”

And, some questioned the decision to apply it to China and Xinjiang and not to the situation in Myanmar, where Rphingya Muslims have been subjected to significant attacks and atrocities.

“The Secretary’s statement underscores the importance of appropriate international investigations and prosecutions of officials for the crime of genocide in Xinjiang,” said Eric Schwartz, the president of Refugees International. “At the same time, I’m baffled and deeply concerned that Secretary Pompeo has declined to make a similar finding of genocide against the state of Myanmar for its vicious mass attacks against the Rohingya population beginning in August 2017.”


https://apnews.com/article/pompeo-china ... 9ac54022db

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Hopefully this forum, having been founded during the last psy-op and propaganda push meant to justify conflict with Iraq, won't succumb to USA hypocrisy and warmongering. The goods news is that at least the military budget is safe for another year. :roll:
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Fasces wrote:https://apnews.com/article/pompeo-china-uighurs-treatment-genocide-aabe7841bc738f06f6ec2d9ac54022db

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Hopefully this forum, having been founded during the last psy-op and propaganda push meant to justify conflict with Iraq, won't succumb to USA hypocrisy and warmongering. The goods news is that at least the military budget is safe for another year. :roll:


Are you seriously implying that USA wants to fight a military conflict against a nuclear armed power?

What China is doing is genocide. It is called Cultural genocide and it has been in international law since the end of the world war 2. It is not a new concept. And that can be considered the bare minimum of whats happening.

I will not read the article because it is literally stupid to claim otherwise with all the evidence that have been floating around.
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Are you seriously implying that USA wants to fight a military conflict against a nuclear armed power?


No, they want to justify punitive action against a rising power using false pretenses. Sanctions, the remilitarization of Japan, etc.

It's needlessly turning up the heat.

What China is doing is genocide. It is called Cultural genocide and it has been in international law since the end of the world war 2. It is not a new concept. And that can be considered the bare minimum of whats happening.


If what China is doing is genocide, what do we call US actions in the Middle East since 2003, which have led to (by conservative estimates) more than 3 million dead and displaced Iraqis - 3x (according to the worst estimates) the number of Uiygher prisoners. The United States is a morally bankrupt regime and its actions are transparently self-serving despite relying on moral justifications.

I will not read the article because it is literally stupid to claim otherwise with all the evidence that have been floating around.


It's literally just an AP article about Pompeo being a coward and making a principled stand ( :roll: ) twenty hours before his term ends, as part of the Trump's administration general approach of tossing molotov cocktails left and right in the past few days.
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Fasces wrote:If what China is doing is genocide, what do we call US actions in the Middle East since 2003, which have led to (by conservative estimates) more than 3 million dead and displaced Iraqis - 3x (according to the worst estimates) the number of Uiygher prisoners. The United States is a morally bankrupt regime and its actions are transparently self-serving despite relying on moral justifications.


That is not an argument that determines whether China is genociding the Uighurs.

US actions in the M-E and Yugoslavia have been criticised by myself personally several times over with extreme prejudice.

It would be extremely hypocritical to criticise the US for all its crimes but not China and her crimes.
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noemon wrote:That is not an argument that determines whether China is genociding the Uighurs.


I am not defending Chinese actions (though I wouldn't call them genocide*), I am criticizing American motives and the potential consequences those bad intentions can lead to. A new Cold War does not benefit anyone except for American merchants of death.

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Fasces wrote:I am not defending Chinese actions (though I wouldn't call them genocide*), I am criticizing American motives and the potential consequences those bad intentions can lead to. A new Cold War does not benefit anyone except for American merchants of death.


Letting China destroy the Uighur Muslim community without even criticising China and calling it what it is(cultural genocide) can have very dire consequences both for the community itself as well as other communities subject to eradication by criminal states all around the world.

I think it has taken way too long for people to pick up on China's extremism.

As I said it would be totally disingenuous for myself and this forum to trash the US for all its crimes in Iraq but keep silent on Chinese crimes that are leading to the eradication of Uighurs as a distinct community.

Just because an idiot(Pompeo) said something true, and took him too late already, it doesn't mean that his saying it has made it less true or valid.
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noemon wrote: to the eradication of Uighurs as a distinct community.


A sanitized, domesticated and Sinicized version perhaps, but complete eradication, when Uigher food and culture are so popular across China, is a hard sell to even the Chinese.

I suppose this gets into philosophical questions about the nature of 'distinct communities'. Is Islamic extremism a requisite of being Uigher? Is Islam itself a requisite of being Uigher? The aim is undoubtedly to deislamify (or at least make them passive, like the Hui) the Uigher community, but is that the same as destroying it?
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Fasces wrote:A sanitized, domesticated and Sinicized version perhaps, but complete eradication, when Uigher food and culture are so popular across China, is a hard sell to even the Chinese.

I suppose this gets into philosophical questions about the nature of 'distinct communities'. Is Islamic extremism a requisite of being Uigher?
Is Islam itself a requisite of being Uigher? The aim is undoubtedly to deislamify (or at least make them passive, like the Hui) the Uigher community, but is that the same as destroying it?


Of course it is the same as destroying it. :eh:
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Of course it is the same as destroying it


Why? The Uighers predate Islam, and cultures change all the time. If they keep the language, the culture, the food, the dances, the costumes, and the identity, why is losing Islam* so important? Are atheists in Greek or Turkey also less Greek or Turkish?

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Last edited by Fasces on 20 Jan 2021 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Fasces wrote:Why? The Uighers predate Islam, and cultures change all the time? If they keep the language, the culture, the food, the dances, the costumes, and the identity, why is losing Islam so important?

Are atheists in Greek or Turkey also less Greek or Turkish?


Perhaps you can explain to the Jews on whether "de-Jewifying" them is genocide or not by promising not to kill all of them in the process. :roll:

Atheist in Greece are by choice not by force. :eh:
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noemon wrote:Atheist in Greece are by choice not by force.


Sure. How about the Greek Christian? Is religious indoctrination, when done to young children and enforced throughout their youth by parents and the local community, a choice, in any meaningful sense?

The most egregious anti-Islamic activities that most media focus talking about cultural erasure within Xinjiang are:

1) children under 18 are not allowed in mosques (they can choose to become religious once they graduate)

2) schools and other state institutions do not recognize religious holidays and do not allow religious displays (so no praying, no Ramadan, no Christmas, no passover, no celebration of the incarnation of Buddha, etc)

2a) Compounding 2), but due to the large area in Xinjiang and the low population density, most schools are built in centralized locations and offer Monday-Friday boarding for students, away from their families. My own public school, in the middle of a large city in Eastern China, does the same, incidentally. Is this kidnapping children or enforcing compulsory education standards in a cost effective way?

Do these efforts, in your eyes, constitute a cultural genocide? Where do you draw the line between genocide and, as @ness31 likes to say, public enforcement of state secularism?
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Fasces wrote:Sure. How about the Greek Christian? Is religious indoctrination, when done to young children and enforced throughout their youth by parents and the local community, a choice, in any meaningful sense?

The most egregious anti-Islamic activities that most media focus talking about cultural erasure within Xinjiang are:

1) children under 18 are not allowed in mosques (they can choose to become religious once they graduate)

2) schools and other state institutions do not recognize religious holidays and do not allow religious displays (so no praying, no Ramadan, no Christmas, no passover, no celebration of the incarnation of Buddha, etc)

2a) Compounding 2), but due to the large area in Xinjiang and the low population density, most schools are built in centralized locations and offer Monday-Friday boarding for students, away from their families. My own public school, in the middle of a large city in Eastern China, does the same, incidentally. Is this kidnapping children or enforcing compulsory education standards in a cost effective way?

Do these efforts, in your eyes, constitute a cultural genocide? Where do you draw the line between genocide and, as @ness31 likes to say, public enforcement of state secularism?


I think you have truly reached a level of apologetics that is absolutely unbecoming.

Children not allowed to attend services of their religion or observe their religious holidays you contrast them with Christians baptising their children and Jews having their mitzvahs.

"China will protect you from the indoctrination of your own parents!"

Kidnapped children against their will and against the will of their parents/guardians for forced indoctrination you call "offering them a compulsory education". :roll:
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Fasces wrote:Is going to school "kidnapping" to you? :eh:

Or only when China does it?


Fasces, i am sorry but you are a good example that propaganda actually works on rational people irrelevant of the person being smart etc. I might not have agreed with some things that you stood for or said previously but at least i understood them.

Nowadays, I just can't understand your arguments at all. You literally have 0 bad notions of China. It is simply not possible for a country to be flawless in every regard in its policies and actions etc. I hope that you will see it one day. Before you say that i am just shilling for the "West" here or some variation there of then remember that problems of Europe/EU and US are discussed here ad nuseum. Me and Noemon, for example, sometimes agree and sometimes disagree on what to do and why or if it is a problem or not. It is like 50/50%.

I know this is an emotional argument of sorts that doesn't prove or disprove anything. There is no other way to put it though.
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I enjoy the word sinicization. It explains so much for me.

Just a quick question. In Australia, if parents want their children to have an education with a religious component then they send them to private schools. If my memory serves, the Lords Prayer and religious studies were removed from the public curriculum, hence my being annoyed at the double standard with The Wire.
(If we’re going to enforce, I’d like to see it enforced fairly. A Christmas tree and all it’s supposed religious trappings bear no semblance to an Eruv - not in tradition or meaning)

But what of the Chinese? Do they have dedicated schools for their own traditional beliefs or religions? If a country has a proclivity towards ‘superstition’ then it must have a strong spiritual character, surely?
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I'm going to answer you a little out of order - apologies. Just makes the response more coherent.

JohnRawls wrote:You literally have 0 bad notions of China. It is simply not possible for a country to be flawless in every regard in its policies and actions etc.


This is simply not true. Criticisms I have of China:

- Anti-pluralist to the point of tyrannical.
- Limited advancements on local democratic reforms promised.
- A regression under Xi to conservative anti-science positions such as anti-homosexuality and regression on women's rights.
- Using and stoking Han nationalism as a crutch, again under Xi, and adopting an anti-global populist mindset. Honestly, online social media networks often read like thedonald.win or Parler just with certain nouns switched around.
- A draconian and all-to-often (but less so than in the past!) arbitrary justice system
- Significant income inequality and unequal levels of development coupled with the growing power of industrial oligarchs within the state that preclude the development of meaningful health and safety standards
- Instead of breaking the wheel and trying to plot a new course, is largely following the Western blueprint for great power bullying
- On that note, its overwhelming desire for stability and growth at all costs which often lead it to do things that harm the population.
- Minor niggles (why oh why is it illegal to move your car after an accident until a cop arrives, it just creates huge traffic jams and clogs up entire highways for hours. Just move to the side of the fucking road!)

Of course no system is perfect.

Fasces, i am sorry but you are a good example that propaganda actually works on rational people irrelevant of the person being smart etc. I might not have agreed with some things that you stood for or said previously but at least i understood them.


I agree that propaganda is effective, and unfortunately it has affected a lot of people in this forum. Several individuals on PoFo are completely unwilling to accept two sentiments, and it is entirely the product of a Western anti-China propaganda effort over the last ten years.

    *China does a lot of things well, and the West can learn from them.

    *The Chinese regime is not a unique, or even the worst, evil on the planet. It is fairly average, and absolutely comparable with US/NATO conduct.

This is not a claim that China is infalliable - just that China is no worse in its conduct than the Western powers, and in many ways an improvement. The difference is the subject of tyranny - Western powers prefer to do their killing abroad, and China is still stabilizing its own borders.

What I have, that many in the West lack due to a lack of language skills and receiving all news through a filter, is a nuanced concept of China.

I do see the West, in its present state, as a lost cause that has had its best days. It will not rise to the challenge of climate change, and China will serve as a catalyst for change during the 21st and 22nd centuries - just as the West was for China in the 19th and 20th centuries - but this is not the same as seeing China as without sin.

noemon wrote:Show me another country pro-actively trying to wipe out the collective memory and identity of a community and I will say the same.


Would you call efforts by Greek nationalists to abolish Italian schools and language in Corfu/Ionian islands, or to expel and dismantle Ottoman Turkish institutions and villages following WW1, an example of genocide?

ness31 wrote:But what of the Chinese? Do they have dedicated schools for their own traditional beliefs or religions? If a country has a proclivity towards ‘superstition’ then it must have a strong spiritual character, surely?


Private schools are legal in China. Some of these private schools can have a religious character, under tight controls. I've worked at a Daoist school for two years, and the number one school in Qingdao is explicitly a 'Christian school'.

However, it is illegal for any religion to proselytize to Chinese nationals under 18. The Christian school cannot force domestic students to attend mass (but can to foreign students), and cannot disperse religious literature or religious propaganda to their students. They also cannot explicitly celebrate religious holidays (ie: Christmas is OK if its about Santa and gift giving and a fun little tradition. A nativity play is not OK.)
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Fasces wrote:This is not a claim that China is infalliable - just that China is no worse in its conduct than the Western powers, and in many ways an improvement. The difference is the subject of tyranny - Western powers prefer to do their killing abroad, and China is still stabilizing its own borders.


I would say that's a major difference between both, even more so if the reason is that China is stabilizing its own borders (first?).

Fasces wrote:I do see the West, in its present state, as a lost cause that has had its best days. It will not rise to the challenge of climate change, and China will serve as a catalyst for change during the 21st and 22nd centuries - just as the West was for China in the 19th and 20th centuries - but this is not the same as seeing China as without sin.


Why? I actually think that if the West won't manage climate change, neither will China. China is, as of today, more dependent on the economic activities that a climate policy is meant to disincentivize then the West is.
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wat0n wrote:I would say that's a major difference between both, even more so if the reason is that China is stabilizing its own borders


Why? Why is it excusable for the US/NATO to bomb Iraq, but inexcusable for China to round up Uiyghers?

Dead is dead, Ahmed doesn't care that the drone that took out his village was piloted by a guy with Freedom!!! anymore than he cares the bullet that shot him in the head was fired a filthy commie conscript.

wat0n wrote:Why? I actually think that if the West won't manage climate change, neither will China.


China has demonstrated a willingness to act and sacrifice in the face of crisis over the last year, and is largely through the worst of it - even experiencing economic growth despite the worst global recession since 1929. The West has absolutely floundered. It's politics are more divided than before, in Europe and North America. It's wealth inequality has spiraled. It will get worse and worse as the climate crisis does, bringing with it refugees, resource scarcity, and other challenges.

wat0n wrote:China is, as of today, more dependent on the economic activities that a climate policy is meant to disincentivize then the West is.


China is a world leader in green technologies, and is actively taking steps to improve its environmental record - while countries like Australia, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom have actively regressed over the last five years. Yes, they are still in a bad place, but I think they're positioning themselves well for the future, with more planning and united effort than any Western state.
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Private schools are legal in China. Some of these private schools can have a religious character, under tight controls. I've worked at a Daoist school for two years, and the number one school in Qingdao is explicitly a 'Christian school'.

However, it is illegal for any religion to proselytize to Chinese nationals under 18. The Christian school cannot force domestic students to attend mass (but can to foreign students), and cannot disperse religious literature or religious propaganda to their students. They also cannot explicitly celebrate religious holidays (ie: Christmas is OK if its about Santa and gift giving and a fun little tradition. A nativity play is not OK.)


From your reply it sounds as though China tries hard to accommodate religious observance in order to give the pretense of functioning pluralism.

But I guess my query (which was quite vague) was more, do they have national pride in their religious customs? Would they show Taoism favour over others? Do they have that capacity?
I’d have thought that was one of the perks of being a superpower with a rich cultural history :)

I guess you can get away with a lot more through the art of disguise 8)
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