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#15151222
That Trump supporters have a large tendency towards racism, or identity politics, isn't an opinion.

The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment
Another study produces the same findings we’ve seen over and over again.

Over at the Washington Post, researchers Matthew Fowler, Vladimir Medenica, and Cathy Cohen have published the results of a new survey on these questions, with a focus on the 41 percent of white millennials who voted for Trump and the sense of “white vulnerability” that motivated them. The conclusion is very clear:

Contrary to what some have suggested, white millennial Trump voters were not in more economically precarious situations than non-Trump voters. Fully 86 percent of them reported being employed, a rate similar to non-Trump voters; and they were 14 percent less likely to be low income than white voters who did not support Trump. Employment and income were not significantly related to that sense of white vulnerability.

So what was? Racial resentment.

Even when controlling for partisanship, ideology, region and a host of other factors, white millennials fit Michael Tesler’s analysis, explored here. As he put it, economic anxiety isn’t driving racial resentment; rather, racial resentment is driving economic anxiety. We found, as he has in a larger population, that racial resentment is the biggest predictor of white vulnerability among white millennials. Economic variables like education, income and employment made a negligible difference.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/ ... iety-study

Julian658 wrote:I used to only date women with a waist to hip ratio of 0.7 so I discriminated.
No. You had a preference. There's a difference between the two. Discriminate is not a synonym for prefer.

eg. I can discriminate between a woman with a 0.7 waist ratio with a woman with 1.5 waist ratio, but I prefer the slimmer one.

Julian658 wrote:BTW, Do you think that in a nation with free speech racists words are allowed? Who decides what is racist and what is not racist speech?
Racist words are allowed. What you get after you say them, however, is dependent on who you are saying that stupid shit to.

Words can be racist, for sure but it's usually statements that are, moreso. Free speech doesn't mean the freedom to spread hate and cause harm, without consequence.

American freedom of speech has more to do with the freedom to not have your speech curtailed with government intervention. Most Americans think this applies to platforms like Twitter and Facebook, etc. They are wrong and very ignorant of what their 1st Amendment says.

The society at large determines what is racist speech. Most of Western society is well aware of what constitutes racist speech/rhetoric... as you've seen here.
#15151223
noemon wrote:So you agree with me "but you do not understand why?" :lol:

He says round up only the "children of slaves" and put them in a military boarding school but you don't get why and how this is "racist"?

You repeat my own argument verbatim but allegedly fail to comprehend it?

If he said what I said and you agreed, obviously that would not be racism, but he didn't. He said that his suggestion would apply only to the "descendants of slaves" regardless if they need it and not to the white and latin trash that may need it.

That is racism and at an extreme level too.

I think there's a misunderstanding/miscommunication here between us.

He says round up only the "children of slaves" and put them in a military boarding school but you don't get why and how this is "racist"?
...
If he said what I said and you agreed, obviously that would not be racism, but he didn't. He said that his suggestion would apply only to the "descendants of slaves" regardless if they need it and not to the white and latin trash that may need it.

If he did say those things (which I didn't see him say, but maybe I missed it or misread it) then I 100% agree with you that this is extreme racism and disgusting, and I certainly DO NOT agree with it in any way whatsoever.

As I said, any such program of reparations involving boarding school education should be 100% voluntary and not mandatory in any way whatsoever. Nobody should be abducting children away from their parents, as this has been a disaster in boarding schools in the past for indigenous peoples in the USA and Canada where children were forcibly removed from their homes ( essentially kidnapped). And as you stated, I agree high income black parents like the Obama's very likely wouldn't have a need or desire to send their kids as they would have the income to send their children to quality private schools or otherwise live in an area with top quality public schools.
#15151235
Rancid wrote:I think we are heading into a cyberpunk kind of future. Perhaps it's time to roll over and take it. :hmm:

I think our society is being destroyed by decadence and corporate corruption of our politics.

Corporate corruption in our politics is obvious, I don't need to expand on that.

Decadence has come because western society is so much more vastly wealthy compared to 100-200 years ago. There is relative poverty yes, but people typically aren't dying during childbirth in significant numbers anymore or dying from famine etc. Decadence means we have become spoiled and softer as a society and as people. Many people's parents are so well off that they can afford to have their kids live at home with them until they're in their 30's, essentially delaying independent adulthood. Most of us simply have far fewer things to worry about these days compared to 150+ years ago, so we transfer our worries to less and less important things by helicopter parenting or person X said something offensive about person or group Y or how good my butt looks in my instagram post. This means every generation is increasingly losing touch on what is truly important.

It may be that socially and culturally western society has peaked, and the only way to fix it is by our political corruption and decadence degrading us to the point of significant economic decline or collapse. As the saying goes: Hard times create strong people, strong people create good times, good times create weak people, and weak people create hard times.
Last edited by Unthinking Majority on 20 Jan 2021 03:56, edited 1 time in total.
#15151243
My fear about UBI is that it will create more decadence. If you have nothing to struggle for when you wake up in the morning, and you don't even have to earn a living anymore, and all we have is comfort, what will that do to us? The rich kid who doesn't have to work or learn to cook and clean may be better off financially than the non-wealthy kids, but they won't be better of psychologically, they'll be lazy spoiled brats who will never have to fight for anything, they can live off their parents wealth their whole lives if they choose, while never having to accomplish anything.

Nietzsche predicted this, he called this "The Last Man":

https://academyofideas.com/2017/10/niet ... -superman/

The Last Man is the individual who specializes not in creation, but in consumption. In the midst of satiating base pleasures, he claims to have “discovered happiness” by virtue of the fact that he lives in the most technologically advanced and materially luxurious era in human history.

But this self-infatuation of the Last Man conceals an underlying resentment, and desire for revenge. On some level, the Last Man knows that despite his pleasures and comforts, he is empty and miserable. With no aspiration and no meaningful goals to pursue, he has nothing he can use to justify the pain and struggle needed to overcome himself and transform himself into something better. He is stagnant in his nest of comfort, and miserable because of it. This misery does not render him inactive, but on the contrary, it compels him to seek victims in the world. He cannot bear to see those who are flourishing and embodying higher values, and so he innocuously supports the complete de-individualization of every person in the name of equality. The Last Man’s utopia is one in which total equality is maintained not from without, by an oppressive ruling class, but from within, through the “evil-eye” of envy and ridicule.
#15151246
Pants-of-dog wrote:At this point, it seems clear that Trump supporters like the ones who stormed the Capitol are the “crazy” ones. They are obsessed with race identity politics and they obviously are all “cancel culture” when it comes to Biden or anyone they perceive as being more left than they are.

I personally would not use the term “crazy”. People with mental illnesses deserve more respect than to be compared to those folks.

I think these people lack intelligence and critical thinking skills to believe all of Trump's lies about the stolen election. These are the same people who won't wear masks, who believe in "flat earth", believe vaccines cause autism, and all sorts of conspiracy theories that confirm their biases about a leftwing media and government elites that always lie to them and cover up the truth...except these Trumpsters don't have the critical thinking skills to find or even understand the evidence necessary to prove these conspiracy claims.
#15151248
Pants-of-dog wrote:Really?

The Capitol rioters were part of the racist faction of the right. Racism is, by definition, race identity politics. So all the racist Trump supporters are advocating race identity politics.

And the rioters decided that racist Trump supporters are the ones who decide who get cancelled, and they also gave themselves the right to decide for all US residents.

There's a racial and cultural war happening in the US right now. It's due to demographic changes in the west, from immigration and low birth rates. This war has been happening for years, and in every other western country to one degree or another.

Some white people fear losing the cultural and racial hegemony that whites have enjoyed in their societies for centuries, and in some countries millennia. This is called "white nationalism". At the same time, people of non-white cultures/races are fighting for their equal space and equal rights and representation. Conflict is inevitable.

I would have thought the backlash in countries like Britain and France and Italy etc would be much worse than the US, because those cultures have been around for far longer than the US. Plus there's also a racial component to being ie: "Italian" that isn't present in the US. I can spot an Italian by looking at them, there's no such thing as an American race since it's always been multiracial.
By wat0n
#15151250
Unthinking Majority wrote:My fear about UBI is that it will create more decadence. If you have nothing to struggle for when you wake up in the morning, and you don't even have to earn a living anymore, and all we have is comfort, what will that do to us? The rich kid who doesn't have to work or learn to cook and clean may be better off financially than the non-wealthy kids, but they won't be better of psychologically, they'll be lazy spoiled brats who will never have to fight for anything, they can live off their parents wealth their whole lives if they choose, while never having to accomplish anything.

Nietzsche predicted this, he called this "The Last Man":

https://academyofideas.com/2017/10/niet ... -superman/


That's one reason why transfers need to have some strings attached.
#15151254
wat0n wrote:That's one reason why transfers need to have some strings attached.

I agree. If you literally can't work and can't find a job, UBI makes sense. But there's some who argue it should be available to anyone, even those who simply don't want to work.
#15151263
Godstud wrote:That Trump supporters have a large tendency towards racism, or identity politics, isn't an opinion.

The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment
Another study produces the same findings we’ve seen over and over again.

Over at the Washington Post, researchers Matthew Fowler, Vladimir Medenica, and Cathy Cohen have published the results of a new survey on these questions, with a focus on the 41 percent of white millennials who voted for Trump and the sense of “white vulnerability” that motivated them. The conclusion is very clear:

Contrary to what some have suggested, white millennial Trump voters were not in more economically precarious situations than non-Trump voters. Fully 86 percent of them reported being employed, a rate similar to non-Trump voters; and they were 14 percent less likely to be low income than white voters who did not support Trump. Employment and income were not significantly related to that sense of white vulnerability.

So what was? Racial resentment.

Even when controlling for partisanship, ideology, region and a host of other factors, white millennials fit Michael Tesler’s analysis, explored here. As he put it, economic anxiety isn’t driving racial resentment; rather, racial resentment is driving economic anxiety. We found, as he has in a larger population, that racial resentment is the biggest predictor of white vulnerability among white millennials. Economic variables like education, income and employment made a negligible difference.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/ ... iety-study



That was pretty good!
I want to expand a bit on that. Humans have five dominant personality traits. One is "open to experience" which is often associated with seeking change, rejecting the old, loving the exotic, accepting the unusual. These people tend to be artistic, a bit disorganized, and love anything foreign including food. Most of the time these people are left leaning. The other dominant personality trait is being conscientious. These people like the old, favor traditions, and are not crazy about change. They mostly eat meat and potatoes and may see themselves as more nationalistic. The latter is comfortable because they prefer what they have and what they know well. They tend to be non-artistic, but work well if given a task to do. Many of these folks are conservative by nature. Those two personality traits likely explain a good portion of the split between right and left.

The other issue is multiethnic society where there is always the possibility of being susceptible to tribalism. Humans evolved in tribes and once a person becomes tribal they assume all the values of the tribe without exception. At the same time the values of the opposite tribe are entirely rejected. It becomes and "us versus them" 24/7. That explains why people on the extreme left and the extreme right punch all the holes in the ticket. The only non-tribal ones are the centrists. They freely embrace values from the left and the right.

IN a tribe kinship plays a big role and that may explains the ID politics. However, large tribes can also be bound together by similar cultural values. In this context people with no kinship can be bound together when they have common goals. Note how black conservatives intellectuals are cherished by the so-called conservative whites and rejected by minorities on the left.

What we have in America are two large tribes and they hate each other. Some of the tribal stuff is about kinship, but values and culture play a huge role. Robert Sapolsky an evolutionary neurobiologist has studied this all his life.

BTW, there is hope! The way to avoid tribalism in a multicultural and multiethnic society is to adopt single monoculture. Without a single unifying culture there is no hope. Tribalism is almost always followed by war.

The Yankees and the Red Sox dislike each other. However, if you create a 3rd team and give them the task to play someone else they become unified.


No. You had a preference. There's a difference between the two. Discriminate is not a synonym for prefer.

eg. I can discriminate between a woman with a 0.7 waist ratio with a woman with 1.5 waist ratio, but I prefer the slimmer one.

Racist words are allowed. What you get after you say them, however, is dependent on who you are saying that stupid shit to.

Words can be racist, for sure but it's usually statements that are, moreso. Free speech doesn't mean the freedom to spread hate and cause harm, without consequence.

American freedom of speech has more to do with the freedom to not have your speech curtailed with government intervention. Most Americans think this applies to platforms like Twitter and Facebook, etc. They are wrong and very ignorant of what their 1st Amendment says.

The society at large determines what is racist speech. Most of Western society is well aware of what constitutes racist speech/rhetoric... as you've seen here.

I have no disagreement with the above. Society should decide what is accepted or not.
However, quite often stating something in a blunt manner is taken as racist when it is not.
Last edited by Julian658 on 20 Jan 2021 03:58, edited 2 times in total.
#15151264
Julian658 wrote:Do you ever wonder why Trump won in 2016? It was a reaction to ID politics.


I have wondered.

Then I did research. So I know why people voted for Trump, so I know this is not true.

And this means you have no evidence. So why should anyone believe you?

I did not say racism. I said discrimination.


So no evidence.

They were wrong POD. Do you want me to read a prepared text by you. You guys tend to be authoritarian.


I note that you still refuse to condemn their race identity politics or their cancel culture. But you did insult progressives once again.

Why do you think the racism and attempts at censorship shown by the rioters is tolerable and not worthy of condemnation?

———————

Unthinking Majority wrote:My fear about UBI is that it will create more decadence. ....

Nietzsche predicted this, he called this "The Last Man":
....


This does not seem like a strong argument against UBI.

It is an unsupported prediction about how people might end up being less worthy of your respect, rather than a logical claim based on verified facts.

But even if we assume this is true, I would gladly pay this price to avoid things like sexual harassment, lack of dental care, unsafe working conditions, lack of financial stability, and other issues faced by people who work low paying jobs.

Unthinking Majority wrote:There's a racial and cultural war happening in the US right now. It's due to demographic changes in the west, from immigration and low birth rates. This war has been happening for years, and in every other western country to one degree or another.


I would not describe it as a war. We just moved to the developed world for economic reasons or to flee political problems. We are not invading.

Some white people fear losing the cultural and racial hegemony that whites have enjoyed in their societies for centuries, and in some countries millennia. This is called "white nationalism". At the same time, people of non-white cultures/races are fighting for their equal space and equal rights and representation. Conflict is inevitable.


Yes, racists will be racist and the rest of us will try to stop them so that we can go in with our day.

But many conservatives like to pretend that only the people opposed to racism are causing conflict.

I would have thought the backlash in countries like Britain and France and Italy etc would be much worse than the US, because those cultures have been around for far longer than the US. Plus there's also a racial component to being ie: "Italian" that isn't present in the US. I can spot an Italian by looking at them, there's no such thing as an American race since it's always been multiracial.


The US was literally built by stealing land from one race and developing it with the stolen labour of another race. Racism is part of the US identity in a way that is different from the racism of Europeans.
#15151270
Unthinking Majority wrote:I think our society is being destroyed by decadence and corporate corruption of our politics.

Corporate corruption in our politics is obvious, I don't need to expand on that.

Decadence has come because western society is so much more vastly wealthy compared to 100-200 years. There is relative poverty yes, but people typically aren't dying during childbirth in significant numbers anymore or dying from famine etc. Decadence means we have become spoiled and softer as a society and as people. Many people's parents are so well off that they can afford to have their kids live at home with them until they're in their 30's, essentially delaying independent adulthood. Most of us simply have far fewer things to worry about these days compared to 150+ years ago, so we transfer our worries to less and less important things by helicopter parenting or person X said something offensive about person or group Y or how good my butt looks in my instagram post. This means every generation is increasingly losing touch on what is truly important.

It may be that socially and culturally western society has peaked, and the only way to fix it is by our political corruption and decadence degrading us to the point of significant economic decline or collapse. As the saying goes: Hard times create strong people, strong people create good times, good times create weak people, and weak people create hard times.


In some Western nations it is possible for a very poor person to receive a cash for expenses, live in public apartment, and receive feee food. They will be relative poor when compared to others, however they are making a living without having to work. This is a first in world history! Obese poor people!! This leads to nihilism and drugs. That is what we see in San Francisco, LA, Seattle, etc.

BTW, look at old photos and movies from the early 20th century. There were no fat people around. Obesity is a byproduct of the excesses of this era, the most prosperous era in world history. However, if you ask some people on the left they think they are in hell. And they may be correct! The middle class is disappearing. The West has reached its peak.
#15151274
Pants-of-dog wrote:
I would not describe it as a war. We just moved to the developed world for economic reasons or to flee political problems. We are not invading.


POD

What would happen if Mexico is flooded by Anglo immigrants that demand services, schools, health care, jobs, English forms in all areas of the government, etc. Will the Mexican government do anything they can to accommodate the massive number of Anglo immigrants? Having said this I think the USA does an acceptable job with immigrants.
#15151276
Pants-of-dog wrote:The US was literally built by stealing land from one race and developing it with the stolen labour of another race. Racism is part of the US identity in a way that is different from the racism of Europeans.

I suspect you have repeat that sentence one billion times in your lifetime. You are for unlimited immigration and yet complain about the immigration of Europeans to the New World. Yes, I know it was brutal and violent, but nevertheless it was migration.
#15151279
Julian658 wrote:POD

What would happen if Mexico is flooded by Anglo immigrants that demand services, schools, health care, jobs, English forms in all areas of the government, etc.


You mean, like when the US actually invaded and took over parts of Mexico? Right. That was an actual invasion.

The same is not happening now. But your desire to portray Latino immigrants as an invading force trying to steal government resources is noted for the racist meme that it is.

Julian658 wrote:I suspect you have repeat that sentence one billion times in your lifetime. You are for unlimited immigration and yet complain about the immigration of Europeans to the New World. Yes, I know it was brutal and violent, but nevertheless it was migration.


Is there an argument here?

You also seem to have no idea what my stance is on immigration. This is not surprising.

And you seem to not know the difference between colonialism and immigration.
#15151282
Pants-of-dog wrote:You mean, like when the US actually invaded and took over parts of Mexico? Right. That was an actual invasion.

The same is not happening now. But your desire to portray Latino immigrants as an invading force trying to steal government resources is noted for the racist meme that it is.



Is there an argument here?

You also seem to have no idea what my stance is on immigration. This is not surprising.

And you seem to not know the difference between colonialism and immigration.

POD

Do not take everything so literally. I am just trying to teach a bit of common sense. Going to a host country and acting in a demanding manner is bound to run into some resistance. That is human nature.

Carry on!
#15151284
Pants-of-dog wrote:But even if we assume this is true, I would gladly pay this price to avoid things like sexual harassment, lack of dental care, unsafe working conditions, lack of financial stability, and other issues faced by people who work low paying jobs.

I'm not for those things, nor am I against UBI as an income top-up. I'm worried about the psychological and sociological effects of mass unemployment and having no need to work or find work due to UBI.

I would not describe it as a war. We just moved to the developed world for economic reasons or to flee political problems. We are not invading.

I'm not arguing immigrants are "invading", I'm arguing that some white people see it that way, hence Trumpster white nationalists.

Yes, racists will be racist and the rest of us will try to stop them so that we can go in with our day.

But many conservatives like to pretend that only the people opposed to racism are causing conflict.

Yes I agree.

War happens when 2 or more different groups of people have conflicting interests that can't be resolved. So we have a war of culture and race happening.
#15151286
Julian658 wrote:POD

Do not take everything so literally. I am just trying to teach a bit of common sense. Going to a host country and acting in a demanding manner is bound to run into some resistance. That is human nature.

Carry on!


Yes, now that you have failed to support the actual arguments, and have been shown to be wrong, you are backpedaling to these new vague claims.

Look, people can and will be racist about people like me and my family. The fact that is expected and not surprising does not make it right or acceptable.

Glad I could teach you these things.

——————-

Unthinking Majority wrote:I'm not for those things, nor am I against UBI as an income top-up. I'm worried about the psychological and sociological effects of mass unemployment and having no need to work or find work due to UBI.


Is there evidence that these fears of yours are supported by science?

I'm not arguing immigrants are "invading", I'm arguing that some white people see it that way, hence Trumpster white nationalists.


The nationalists are more than just upset. They want to get rid of us.

Yes I agree.

War happens when 2 or more different groups of people have conflicting interests that can't be resolved. So we have a war of culture and race happening.


No. We have one group attacking the other because of race and culture, and we have a whole bunch of groups who are being attacked and are trying to stop the attack.

That is not a war.
#15151290
Julian658 wrote:In some Western nations it is possible for a very poor person to receive a cash for expenses, live in public apartment, and receive feee food. They will be relative poor when compared to others, however they are making a living without having to work. This is a first in world history! Obese poor people!! This leads to nihilism and drugs. That is what we see in San Francisco, LA, Seattle, etc.

There's nothing wrong with anyone receiving welfare or unemployment or any other income supports if they legitimately can't find work or can't work due to medical reasons. I think there is something wrong with allowing people to stay on such benefits indefinitely and not even try to improve themselves, unless of course you have a legit illness/disability that prevents you. Although I did recently see a video of a man with no legs working on a construction site laying bricks with the words "what's your excuse?".

The point is in the struggle. Everyone needs something to get up for in the morning. It's psychologically healthy. A rolling stone gathers no moss.
#15151292
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. We have one group attacking the other because of race and culture, and we have a whole bunch of groups who are being attacked and are trying to stop the attack.

That is not a war.

In terms of physical violence yes. I'm talking more about a cultural battle.
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