[Heisenberg]

I posted the whole thing as it was and did not ignore anything, so please do not start with your pathetic personal insults and insinuations again.

OK, the paragraph you didn't highlight, then. Jesus.

I'm happy to drop the insults just as soon as you do. It's getting a bit boring.

[noemon]

OK, the paragraph you didn't highlight, then. Jesus.

I'm happy to drop the insults just as soon as you do. It's getting a bit boring.

Please read your own posts and mine and then say that again. This does not seem like you are but whatever.

[Odiseizam]

@noemon , @Heisenberg , hey imagine You were on academic or institutional e-forum [1] happily You are not otherwise think both will be redirected to oftopic or parallel chit-chat thread I have lost will for debating in this thread half leveled as interpretation management ...

@annatar1914 could Navalny anyhow destabilize Russia with this move, is he capable now to provoke massive protests or activate such through right-wing supporters, I know ukrainian scenario isnt possible, but how strong on street level he is in Russia eg. is it possible his supporters to block at least one city, if so as such he can become unnecessary burden for the state mids any next postcovid recession, although I think his move is just awakening signal to the sleeping western bots for new colored pressure around Russia eg. Kazakhstan etc.

[noemon]

Yes I'm sure that for pro-Russian trolls, this thread should only contain nonsensical football arguments of trolls talking passed each other. One side sanctifying Putin and his system and the other trying to get a word in.

It took us 9 pages to put all the trolling down and establish a basic agreement that:

1) Russia can and should in fact do democracy.
2) Calling all Putin's opponents as "foreign spies" is not convincing anybody and that it is merely a smearing technique to maintain Putin in power.
3) Russia is not fundamentally different than other European states despite her departure the past century that has resulted in political divergence. If Eastern Europe can do it, so can Russia.
4) There are way too many political prisoners in Russia.
5) Alexei Navalny is very popular and a real danger to Putin.
6) Russians should not fear democracy.

To ensure that Navalny does not merely replace Putin if he does win, all the other political prisoners must be released, term limits be upgraded and the separation of powers firmly established.

I genuinely want to see my Orthodox Russian brothers prosper and join us in Europe like in the past.

Even if democracy comes with bumps, all these bumps are instructional for the future.

[Odiseizam]

@noemon You did noticed recently that eU is chocked in its exhaust, just piling problems and resolving none thats crucial, except the possible oil drainage through brexit but with half closed valve! and You say Russia should and will join You, when, maybe now in some parallel reality!?

hm prisoners are prisoners just coz they think their earlier freedom didnt carry responsibility in certain circumstances, its same in eU, just now they have no more room for dissidents in prisons, they are conditioned through psychotronic torture [1]

[JohnRawls]

Saints Putin house:



Navalny released new video about Putins residence. Well its huge and costs over 1.5 billion. The total land size is around 39 Monacos. There are videos and full explanations about it. (All those towers and building behind the palace is part of it).

Video in Russian but probably has english translation with subtitles:

[noemon]

@Odiseizam I said Europe and Europe is not just the EU.

Russia is already a member of the Council of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

[JohnRawls]

@noemon You did noticed recently that eU is chocked in its exhaust, just piling problems and resolving none thats crucial, except the possible oil drainage through brexit but with half closed valve! and You say Russia should and will join You, when, maybe now in some parallel reality!?

hm prisoners are prisoners just coz they think their earlier freedom didnt carry responsibility in certain circumstances, its same in eU, just now they have no more room for dissidents in prisons, they are conditioned through psychotronic torture [1]

Europe/West/Eu is "Baaaaaad" but we are the best places to live in. There are relatively very few places as good to live in by many statistics.

Some places in Europe are perhaps the best places to live in or the richest in the world but that is debatable. The beauty of "Western" systems that the margin of error for "Western" leaders is huge because of the system and how it works compared to other places and countries. Even with all the conflicts and making problems for ourselves or imploding inside the "West" is a far far more successful.

The funny thing is that Russia could have been there already. Eastern Europe started from a far lower place and is several fold ahead now compared to Russia. Per capita, average salaries, standards of living, HDI has far surpassed Russias. While Russia is still a developing Nation most of Eastern Europe has already become developed.

[Odiseizam]

@Odiseizam I said Europe and Europe is not just the EU.

Russia is already a member of the Council of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

ok is this fairytail, also when needed Russia is guest in G7 too or nato watch, would that mean they should join nato as well!?

► Show Spoiler

in some eu-sponsored video contest when intentionally I market eU as Europe they refused my proposal, so many in eU dont share Your optimism!

btw how I am russian troll, maybe having own opinion by Your standards is wrong?

[Odiseizam]

The funny thing is that Russia could have been there already. Eastern Europe started from a far lower place and is several fold ahead now compared to Russia. Per capita, average salaries, standards of living, HDI has far surpassed Russias. While Russia is still a developing Nation most of Eastern Europe has already become developed.

Please open new thread for this fantasy to be explored deeply eastern europeans live in way miserable conditions than earlier, except stolen funds and cheap infrastructure they didnt welcomed any positive change! one third already migrated in western europe and the rest indulged in dept, now they are all starting to live alienated lifes something that was not so common for the warm and friendly eastern europeans, aside all the resources and privatization robbery along brain drain exploitation!

[JohnRawls]

Please open new thread for this fantasy to be explored deeply eastern europeans live in way miserable conditions than earlier, except stolen funds and cheap infrastructure they didnt welcomed any positive change! one third already migrated in western europe and the rest indulged in dept, now they are all starting to live alienated lifes something that was not so common for the warm and friendly eastern europeans, aside all the resources and privatization robbery along brain drain exploitation!

I don't know if you seriously spatting this, trolling or just consumed too much propaganda. What you say is blatantly untrue. Some Eastern European countries are starting to catch up and surpass countries that were considered "Western" in the past. For example Estonia where I live has higher standards than Portugal in most categories now. We started 10 times lower though in 1990 and 1991.

While Portugal is not the most richest or the most developed "Western" country, it is still a good achievement. Additionally we are still growing faster than places like USA or Germany or France so there is a high chance that Estonia will be able to do an additional double and reach parity with Germany, UK, US in the next 15 years perhaps. (Honestly probably a bit longer)

[Odiseizam]

@JohnRawls get real ... Poland Latvia and Estonia (not sure about Lithuania) are exemptions first because own geostrategic position, and second their mentality is northeuropean i.e. more workoholic alike [1] as You go sothern this difference is more and more evident, but again measure the togetherness vs alienation and You'll see that today people in eastern europe became also selfish closed and thriving for rat race happiness, russians on other hand are not even as south europeans but as south-east europeans , en-masse north-slavic drink bodies, so dont full Yourself its not so simple like hey look the stats, as I pointed that is due to overexploatation and usually hedge funds that artificially pump the ee-economies!

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls get real ... Poland Latvia and Estonia (not sure about Lithuania) are exemptions first because own geostrategic position, and second their mentality is northeuropean i.e. more workoholic alike [1] as You go sothern this difference is more and more evident, but again measure the togetherness vs alienation and You'll see that today people in eastern europe became also selfish closed and thriving for rat race happiness, russians on other hand are not even as south europeans but as south-east europeans , en-masse north-slavic drink bodies, so dont full Yourself its not so simple like hey look the stats, as I pointed that is due to overexploatation and usually hedge funds that artificially pump the ee-economies!

Those are some unsubstantiated claims that can easily be disproved with statistics.



But we are side tracking here. The argument is about Navalny and corruption in Russia. Russia not taking a better path is just a fact by now and the worse part is that Russia is only declining and not going anywhere. Putin is at fault. Navalny might be a way out, I mean it is hard to be worse than Putin at this point.

[Odiseizam]

Those are some unsubstantiated claims that can easily be disproved with statistics

hm, what have working hours with productiveness efficiency or individualism, in question is loosen mentality, PIGS even today cant recover from the past crisis, in Russia (soon after any (imaginary) union with eU) people will also stumble like easteuropeans in trap of mass indepting and that will brake them, I am sotheastern european and I can freely say eU till now just misused us because incompetence i.e. living us to local clans corruption fiascos ...

But we are side tracking here. The argument is about Navalny and corruption in Russia. Russia not taking a better path is just a fact by now and the worse part is that Russia is only declining and not going anywhere. Putin is at fault. Navalny might be a way out, I mean it is hard to be worse than Putin at this point.

Navalny in my opinion could just be western agitprop, sadly many are buying this as necessary

[ingliz]

how strong on street level he is in Russia

My son, who lives in Moscow, says everyone he knows either tuts (as in why is this idiot in the street again) or laughs when his name is mentioned.

His mass protests are not massive.

[Potemkin]

My son, who lives in Moscow, says everyone he knows either tuts (as in why is this idiot in the street again) or laughs when his name is mentioned.

His mass protests are not massive.

The West is hoping to install another Yeltsin in the Kremlin, but it's not going to work this time. The Russian people aren't quite as naive as they once were.

[noemon]

The West is hoping to install another Yeltsin in the Kremlin, but it's not going to work this time. The Russian people aren't quite as naive as they once were.

Putin is the hand-picked successor of Yeltsin. The west already has her stooge in the Kremlin. A stooge that is unable to grow Russia's economy despite being the largest and resource richest nation on earth.

Navalny looks like a proper grassroots patriot by comparison.

[Ganeshas Rat]

Putin is the hand-picked successor of Yeltsin. The west already has her stooge in the Kremlin.

Does repeating bullshit ever and ever and ever again make it less bullshit or something? The hand-picked successor of Yeltsin was Nemtsov. He died. End of story. And if the west has its stooge there then what's the problem? What's the reason for all the hate and such a strong desire to remove him ASAP? If he's already a stooge.

[noemon]

Does repeating bullshit ever and ever and ever again make it less bullshit or something? The hand-picked successor of Yeltsin was Nemtsov. He died. End of story. And if the west has its stooge there then what's the problem? What's the reason for all the hate and such a strong desire to remove him ASAP? If he's already a stooge.

Putin was appointed by Yeltsin. If Yeltsin was a western stooge so is Putin and hence his inability to fix the country in any meaningful way.

The "west is hating Putin". That's a good one. Greece gets more negative press in western news than Russia and she is not doing anything to affect global relations. Putin has invaded the Ukraine and several western media have been defending him, several western countries providing tacit cover. He is tripping over and imprisoning all potential opposition candidates and there is not even a whisper in the supposed "pro-democratic" western media who value these things more than anybody. He is signing business deals with Europe that go against European interests(Nordstream 2) when Europe has her own gas reserves to develop but is opting to prop Putin instead of develop her own.

All the western media running a profile on Navalny are all accusing him of being a "nationalist" and keep mum on Putin.

Of course Putin is a western stooge and has been all along. He ensures Russian mediocrity.

[Igor Antunov]

This guy is infinitely more popular in the west than in Russia. That tells you all you need to know regarding his antics. Why didn't he stay in the EU-US, do interviews and make book deals, play the dalai lama long game? He's clearly dumb as a doorknob. He was told he'd be arrested if he returned, then he returned.

Our collective oxygen, it is just that little bit less because this guy breathes. Wow. I want it redistributed to the masses from his stupid lungs.

Putin was appointed by Yeltsin. If Yeltsin was a western stooge...

The only good thing Yeltsin's actions ever amounted to during his tenure. Also he was no stooge, just a total drunkard incapable of staying sober.