Alexey Navalny detained on return to Moscow - Page 11 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15151371
noemon wrote:Logic is what should determine how things should be done. Not feelings or identities.

What is logical for one is not logical for others. Because people usually have different resources and different goals to achieve. And of course the logic only rules the process of achieving a goal with available resources, nothing else. Establishing the goals is the prerogative of philosophy that can be whatever: rational, irrational, religious, maybe even senseless (there are people who like Nietzsche after all). Let's say I'm a paperclip maximizer, my only goal in life is to produce as many paperclips as possible, preferably to transform all of matter in the universe into paperclips. You can be my partner only as long as doing something useful to you let me maximize my paperclips, and, well, I'm ok with you only helping me with paperclips only when it suits your interests. It doesn't matter if I maximize paperclips or GDP: both are senseless irrational things.
#15151372
noemon wrote:Putin has foreign stooge written all over him.


in propaganda terms this is would be AdHo + Transfer, strange to see it in forum debate, maybe like this people could become more aware at least how spinns work, and wasting time to dissprove this it would mean I am on someones payroll, so I'll say until someone havent understood Adropov Doctrine for compacting Russia in its natural borders so it would would survive these decades of direct pressure, til then he will never grasp that any R-President is carefully selected and promoted by russian strategists so any later action could be done in russian interests, even so when Yeltsin unbelievably stretch his arms and offered russian membership in nato or later Putin pushed for partnership, in this way geopolitically speaking Russia was buying time for revival, and it got it, now with the hypersonic missiles Russia is one decade ahead of nato, and thats why Putin even in the wildest dreams cant be called western stooge but surely eastern bogyman that holds now the western realm for its neck!
#15151373
Potemkin wrote:If Putin is a 'stooge' of the West, then he's a stooge who has cut his own strings....

...and then even turned against them.

However, @noemon, just because Putin and his system have their own limits, it doesn't mean he's a stooge. He actually made Russia great again or at least reestablished and stabilised it so much so that it became a major player in global politics again. He brought back Russia from the woods, so to speak. I agree, though, that he should transfer his power to someone more modernistic (and yes, even liberal), before it's too late, to secure his legacy. He undeniably fulfilled his historic role.
Last edited by Beren on 20 Jan 2021 15:06, edited 2 times in total.
#15151374
noemon wrote:It wasn't one article in Jacobin, it was several of them and plenty of them already quoted in this thread but for good measure here are those quoted by you and then some:

The funniest thing about this is you insist these are smear jobs when they are literally just accurately reporting his words and actions. The Times article starts with the sentence Liberal activists who have backed Russia’s leading opposition politician are reassessing their support after he gave his public backing to an extreme right-wing march in Moscow today.

In the Spectator piece, we hear about Navalny's stance on the South Ossetia war. "Not only did he back the invasion, he also called for the expulsion of Georgian people from Russia and called them ‘rodents’ (grizuni) – a common ethnic slur used by Russian nationalists."

In Politico: "In 2006, he appealed to Moscow City Council that the Russian March — a far-right gathering — be allowed to take place. In 2007, he founded a political movement called The People, which allied itself with two nationalist groups, the Movement Against Illegal Immigration and Great Russia."

In case you were wondering, these are two neo-Nazi groups. :lol:

How does this tally with your view that he is the "Keir Starmer of Russia"?
Last edited by Heisenberg on 20 Jan 2021 15:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15151375
Ganeshas Rat wrote:Though these pictures are bullshit too of course. Their authors proved it day after day that statistics is the great way to detect elections meddling, and then, when all this shit started in the US with sudden peaks and dead voters and no observers policy, they immediately switched to 'STATISTICS PROVES NOTHING! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! IT'S NOT THE SAME!'


Those statistics were created for US election also and they are exactly the same as they were from places like France and Germany adjusted for the turnout. Basically this means that the peak will move around depending on average turnout but the characteristics should remain the same. It just proved that the election wasn't fake and the NORMATIVE GAUSSIAN DISTRIBUTION rules were working and applicable. Nobody reported on them because it wasn't a sensation that the election wasn't a fraud.

But you are claiming here that they showed "fraud". Please post them then and by them i mean Normative Gaussian distribution with turnout on the x axis and total votes for that turnout on the y axis. Or the other way around. Anybody with half a brain will be able to see if there was something fishy going on on a significant scale or not.
#15151379
Heisenberg wrote:In case you were wondering, these are two neo-Nazi groups.

I never heard about the second one and the first one is definitely not neo-nazi. Well, of course in the case if definition of 'neo-nazi' isn't 'everything I don't like'.

JohnRawls wrote:Those statistics were created for US election also and they are exactly the same as they were from places like France and Germany adjusted for the turnout. Basically this means that the peak will move around depending on average turnout but the characteristics should remain the same. It just proved that the election wasn't fake and the NORMATIVE GAUSSIAN DISTRIBUTION rules were working and applicable. Nobody reported on them because it wasn't a sensation that the election wasn't a fraud.

Everybody seen this shark tooth or what it's called. The climb of faith? The mission to the stars? The dead man's hard-on? Someone noticed this vertical line, someone preferred to use words like normative gaussian distribution. Statistics is a cool thing, it can prove anything as long as you don't use scientific method and know exactly which result you want to get.
#15151381
Ganeshas Rat wrote:I never heard about the second one and the first one is definitely not neo-nazi. Well, of course in the case if definition of 'neo-nazi' isn't 'everything I don't like'.

If I wanted to make it clear that I'm definitely not a neo-Nazi, I might think twice about using this kind of symbolism. Lol
Image
#15151386
@Heisenberg @Ganeshas Rat

Putin is beloved by the people according to you, i don't think that I will be able to convince you otherwise. So what is your opinion on Putins house that costs at a minimal of 1.5 billion or more?

Where did he get the money from? His presidential salary ain't that high? Or is he a genius investor on top of being a president of Russia?
#15151408
@noemon ;


They are not showing anything, just mentioning a couple of names of Russian writers does not mean anything, I can do it too.

Alexander Solszhenitsyn, Igor Sharefevich, and Andrei Fursov say Russia is as European as the other Europeans.

What now? :eh:


Having read them, it would be apparent to anyone that they hail from another civilization than the West's, among many others.


I'm referring to that block of text you quoted(you did not say it yourself) it was a large quote from some blog and it was a diatribe that made no sense, calling Russians "integrators" as opposed to western "conquerors" and was contrasting Russian communalism to western liberalism. The question is fair indeed. Now you 're saying that the Communists were more Liberal than the western liberals. Okay, what does anyone say to that when words can apparently have any meaning even for the person using them from post to post.


Now you are perhaps being disingenuous, refusing to see the clear links between Liberalism and the Marxism that sprang from it.


So all the Russian governments for the past 500-600 years were all western traitors but Putin who was directly appointed by the official western puppet Yeltsin is the only pure distillation of the Russian spirit. Okay mate!


Definite strawman argument, as the Westernization began in the 1700's and was resisted from time to time, as the radical consequences of radical ''Enlightenment'' thought began to take effect among the Russian upper classes. One of the later examples of a Russian leader who resisted to a degree would be Podbedonostyev Procurator of the Holy Synod...


They have not, please have the decency to reply to the questions of your interlocutor.

2) Why not elect a Russian guy directly?
3) How is Russia fundamentally different to other countries in the west?


Russia has maintained it's Orthodoxy to a greater degree than the West managed to for one thing. Whereas the West lost Orthodoxy ages ago.



So you are saying that because the Greek Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchate recognised Ukraine as the same status as Russia, Bulgaria, Albania, Czechia, Poland, Serbia and others; that was a schismatic act that deserves the announced Russian split with our Churches, and that you do not wish for the Russian and Greek people to attend each other's religious services or any other Orthodox services in fact as they all abide by the decision of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

You have no argument to justify that other than, the Head of my Church told me to break up with you guys, so I will!

Fabulous.


:roll:

The Ukraine has been under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow since the 1600's, and so the unilateral action of the Phanar to grant an autocephaly to that local ''church'' (which basically exists anyway under Moscow's omphorion) was both uncanonical and a schismatic act, a form of Papism in which a spiritual leader exceeds their authority in the Church established by Jesus Christ for the salvation of mankind. You are looking at this from a political perspective, as is the Phanar and the soon-to-be Uniates of this breakaway body.

Why should the Ukraine, an independent nation not have its own independent Autocephalous Church, like Russia and all the other countries?


You're looking at Orthodoxy from a political and ethnic perspective, a worldly perspective, instead of seeing It as the ''One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'' mentioned in the Creed. You wanted to know what separates Russia from the West, and this degree of understanding or lack thereof is precisely it.
#15151413
Heisenberg wrote:This is precisely it. Cheers bud. :up:


With all the humblest respect, it is harder to be not the right guy when Putin is so shit. Once upon a time, he would have been considered good when nobody really understood what system he is creating or were not sure about it. Especially Medvedev times made everyone hopeful but all that was a lie and nobody really wanted any change from the side of the system or Putins elite. Now a decade later it has all gone to shit with no prospect for a better future.
#15151415
JohnRawls wrote:With all the humblest respect, it is harder to be not the right guy when Putin is so shit.

This exact attitude is the cause of so many foreign policy disasters in the past 20 years alone that I have no patience, let alone sympathy, for it.
#15151418
Heisenberg wrote:The funniest thing about this is you insist these are smear jobs when they are literally just accurately reporting his words and actions.


Again you're confusing your own strawmen. You claimed that Navalny is a western media star as opposed to Putin. These western media articles demonstrate that your ridiculous claim is simply untrue. I did not make any claim one way or another but simply addressed your one.

Heiseberg wrote:How does this tally with your view that he is the "Keir Starmer of Russia"?


He is more liberal than Putin who is worse than Navalny even when it comes to nationalism and imprisoning migrants along with all the opposition.

I believe that Putin is more of a foreign stooge as I explained thoroughly:

Putin has invaded the Ukraine and several western media have been defending him, several western countries providing tacit cover. He is tripping over and imprisoning all potential opposition candidates and there is not even a whisper in the supposed "pro-democratic" western media who value these things more than anybody. He is signing business deals with Europe that go against European interests(Nordstream 2) when Europe has her own gas reserves to develop but is opting to prop Putin instead of develop her own.

All the western media running a profile on Navalny are all accusing him of being a "nationalist" and keep mum on Putin.

Of course Putin is a western stooge and has been all along. He guarantees Russian mediocrity and ensures that Russia never goes on par with the west.

He survives by crushing dissent, pathetic military adventures abroad and tacit European & western support.

He's got foreign stooge written all over him and he was also appointed by the official foreign puppet, Yeltsin.

Still waiting for an argument to the contrary!
#15151423
noemon wrote:Again you're confusing your own strawmen. You claimed that Navalny is a western media star as opposed to Putin. These western media articles demonstrate that your ridiculous claim is simply untrue. I did not make any claim one way or another but simply addressed your one.

So the leaders in major western newspapers this week calling him a "Russian hero" whose "bravery needs backing" are irrelevant. Got it.

noemon wrote:He is more liberal than Putin

Uh huh.

noemon wrote: believe that Putin is more of a foreign stooge as I explained thoroughly:

It's hilarious that you spent so much of this thread shrieking at me for calling Navalny a "CIA stooge" - something I didn't even do! - and now you're tripling down on this rather silly line of argument, which doesn't even make sense on its own terms. Apparently he's a stooge for the west so that Europe can get a gas pipeline deal specifically against its own interests? Lol. Was the war with NATO-aligned Georgia in 2008 an inside job? Is Russian intervention in support of Assad in Syria secretly about advancing NATO's foreign policy goals? Maybe, as a foreign stooge, he had to call up Barack Obama to ask for permission to annex Crimea in 2014. It's quite an elaborate and self-defeating conspiracy, all things considered. :lol:
#15151435
Heisenberg wrote:So the leaders in major western newspapers this week calling him a "Russian hero" whose "bravery needs backing" are irrelevant. Got it.


You 're a funny lad.

Within the last page alone when confronted with the reality that western media are not "cheerleading Navalny" which is what you explicitly claimed, you retorted with:

"but, but, they 're only just telling the truth!!!" :lol:

noemon wrote:Times: Alexei Navalny’s support wavers as nationalist link is exposed

The Atlantic: Navalny Liberal or Nationalist

Politico: Navalny Russian Nationalist

Spectator: Why Navalny may not be a friend of the West.

I sure do get the gist, do you?


When you posted the articles of the media simply calling a politician "brave" for going to Russia after being poisoned and threatened with imprisonment, you also said explicitly that western media are reporting the truth and that you agree with that characterisation.

Make up your mind please because going the obtuse denial route is boring.

Heisenberg wrote:Apparently he's a stooge for the west so that Europe can get a gas pipeline deal specifically against its own interests? Lol. Was the war with NATO-aligned Georgia in 2008 an inside job? Is Russian intervention in support of Assad in Syria secretly about advancing NATO's foreign policy goals? Maybe, as a foreign stooge, he had to call up Barack Obama to ask for permission to annex Crimea in 2014. It's quite an elaborate and self-defeating conspiracy, all things considered. :lol:


Evidently "western interests" are not monolithic as evidenced by several western states doing their own thing in all these things, quite unlike the black and white narratives that trolls in here are pushing forward.

The fact that Europe has gone out of her own way to prop up Putin with a pipeline that goes against European interests and by tacitly supporting Putin in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia by refusing to put any substantial sanctions on Russia says quite a lot indeed. Putin has been provided victories in all theatres he has challenged "the west" with western blessings and western media focusing more on the US than on Russia. While he commands a state with an economy the size of Italy.

Putin has imprisoned everybody who may challenge him and not a single peep is heard in western media.


----



annatar1914 wrote:@noemon ;
Having read them, it would be apparent to anyone that they hail from another civilization than the West's, among many others.


Having read them it is quite apparent that they belong to the tradition of European writers.

Now you are perhaps being disingenuous, refusing to see the clear links between Liberalism and the Marxism that sprang from it. Definite strawman argument, as the Westernization began in the 1700's and was resisted from time to time, as the radical consequences of radical ''Enlightenment'' thought began to take effect among the Russian upper classes. One of the later examples of a Russian leader who resisted to a degree would be Podbedonostyev Procurator of the Holy Synod...


You claimed that both the Czar Romanovs and the Communists were foreign traitors and that neither of them are representatives of 'Russianess'. You 're calling me 'disingenuous' for pointing out your own contradictions which is indeed the very height of being disingenuous.

Russia has maintained it's Orthodoxy to a greater degree than the West managed to for one thing. Whereas the West lost Orthodoxy ages ago.
:roll:
The Ukraine has been under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow since the 1600's, and so the unilateral action of the Phanar to grant an autocephaly to that local ''church'' (which basically exists anyway under Moscow's omphorion) was both uncanonical and a schismatic act, a form of Papism in which a spiritual leader exceeds their authority in the Church established by Jesus Christ for the salvation of mankind. You are looking at this from a political perspective, as is the Phanar and the soon-to-be Uniates of this breakaway body. You're looking at Orthodoxy from a political and ethnic perspective, a worldly perspective, instead of seeing It as the ''One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'' mentioned in the Creed. You wanted to know what separates Russia from the West, and this degree of understanding or lack thereof is precisely it.


You see, you don't believe your own nonsense. You claim that Orthodoxy should be Ecumenical instead of national but you go against the Ecumenical Patriarchate because it is politically convenient to you. You believe that the Ukraine should be subject to the Russian priesthood instead of appointing its own priests to speak to its own people like Russia, Bulgaria, Albania and so many others do. You accuse me of seeing this "politically" when you see it from the perspective of a Russian imperialist.

If you saw it as "One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", you would not hate on your religious brethren for no actual reason nor would you defy the decisions of the Holy Synod, decisions made on the exact same principle that made the Russian Church itself Autocephalous and Independent.

But most Russians are not like you, they defy these Russian nonsense and visit our churches every Sunday with no meat whatsoever. Russian ultra-nationalist/imperialist politics do not fracture our Church that has survived a lot more waves throughout the centuries.

Your petty nationalism means nothing, eventually Putin will go and his politics will go too, while our Church is eternal and the oldest religious organisation in continuous and unbroken existence. You 're just lost as a nation and it is clear why, you have not had the chance to have a proper national conversation for at least 100 years, your national wounds fester without resolution, you have gone from one tin-pot dictator to another and you believe that this is the right way for you instead of grabbing fate in your own national hands. It's sad.
#15151452
noemon wrote:Within the last page alone when confronted with the reality that western media are not "cheerleading Navalny" which is what you explicitly claimed, you retorted with:

"but, but, they 're only just telling the truth!!!"

Did the editorials I shared with you from this week express support for Navalny or not?

Were the articles you used as evidence that Navalny is supposedly demonised by the Putin-loving western media (an utterly absurd concept on its face, but you really want to run with this) recent, or old? And yes, since you're having trouble: honest publications couldn't really ignore his nationalist and far-right connections, as you seem to want them to do. The fact they mention these connections doesn't stop them continuing to advance the idea that Navalny is a "Russian hero", who "needs our backing", as the recent editorials show. Of all of them, the only one that I would say comes to a definitively negative conclusion on Navalny is the Jacobin piece.

noemon wrote:The fact that Europe has gone out of her own way to prop up Putin with a pipeline that goes against European interests and by tacitly supporting Putin in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia by refusing to put any substantial sanctions on Russia says quite a lot indeed.

Wait, is Europe controlling Putin, or is Putin controlling Europe? I'm losing track.

Image

noemon wrote:Putin has imprisoned everybody who may challenge him and not a single peep is heard in western media.

:lol: absolutely comical.
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