Alexey Navalny detained on return to Moscow - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15151455
Heisenberg wrote:Did the editorials I shared with you from this week express support for Navalny or not?

Were the articles you used as evidence that Navalny is supposedly demonised by the Putin-loving western media (an utterly absurd concept on its face, but you really want to run with this) recent, or old? And yes, since you're having trouble: honest publications couldn't really ignore his nationalist and far-right connections, as you seem to want them to do. The fact they mention these connections doesn't stop them continuing to advance the idea that Navalny is a "Russian hero", who "needs our backing", as the recent editorials show. Of all of them, the only one that I would say comes to a definitively negative conclusion on Navalny is the Jacobin piece.


Strawman arguments again, putting words in my mouth that I never said. I do not want these publications to do anything of the sort or ignore anybody. I have made no judgement calls either way. You have made several.

Your ridiculous claim that Navalny is a "western media star" that "western media is cheerleading for" is absolutely false.
You were wrong, digest it and move along. But of course you never implied anything by it, your B&W troll narrative had no purpose or cause! No of course not. :lol:

Heisenberg wrote:Wait, is Europe controlling Putin, or is Putin controlling Europe? I'm losing track.

:lol: absolutely comical.


If you believe that a country with an economy the size of Italy can control "the west", be my guest.

Please do not engage in insults and ad-homs again. Focus on the arguments if you can:

Evidently "western interests" are not monolithic as evidenced by several western states doing their own thing in all these things, quite unlike the black and white narratives that trolls in here are pushing forward.

The fact that Europe has gone out of her own way to prop up Putin with a pipeline that goes against European interests and by tacitly supporting Putin in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia by refusing to put any substantial sanctions on Russia says quite a lot indeed. Putin has been provided victories in all theatres he has challenged "the west" with western blessings and western media focusing more on the US than on Russia. While he commands a state with an economy the size of Italy.

Putin has imprisoned everybody who may challenge him and not a single peep is heard in western media who are far more likely to describe Navalny as nationalist than Putin. As I explained to you, it is because of "the devil we know and control" while Navalny is a jump into the unknown that as you yourself said "could get out of control because he's a nationalist".

Do you regret your own statements or have you forgotten them already?
#15151458
noemon wrote:putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Gee, imagine that. :lol:

noemon wrote:You made a ridiculous claim that Navalny is a "western media star". You were wrong, digest it and move along.

So ridiculous that this week we have major newspapers calling him a "Russian hero" who "needs our backing". :lol:

noemon wrote:If you believe that a country with an economy the size of Italy can control "the west", be my guest.

So I take it you think the west is in favour of Russian control of Crimea, and in favour of the Syrian government then? Uh huh. And it voluntarily goes against its own interests by supporting Russian pipelines? Either way, this is a really weird, self-defeating conspiracy.

noemon wrote:Please do not engage in insults and ad-homs again. Focus on the arguments if you can:

I don't think you know what ad hominem means. It's dismissing an argument because of who said it. I think your arguments are insane and do not make any sense, regardless of the fact it's you making them. While I've certainly thrown insults around, the only one who has actually made an ad hominem attack in this thread is you, dismissing my arguments out of hand as "agitprop for Putin".

noemon wrote:Evidently "western interests" are not monolithic as evidenced by several western states doing their own thing in all these things, quite unlike the black and white narratives that trolls in here are pushing forward.

The fact that Europe has gone out of her own way to prop up Putin with a pipeline that goes against European interests and by tacitly supporting Putin in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia by refusing to put any substantial sanctions on Russia says quite a lot indeed. Putin has been provided victories in all theatres he has challenged "the west" with western blessings and western media focusing more on the US than on Russia. While he commands a state with an economy the size of Italy.

Putin has imprisoned everybody who may challenge him and not a single peep is heard in western media.

Simply repeating the nonsense argument doesn't make it stronger. On the one hand, "western interests are not monolithic," but at the same time, Putin is a "western stooge" (whose stooge?) and this is proven by the fact Russia has asserted itself in opposition to western foreign policy interests on several occasions, because "the west" actually supports Russia's goals in these conflicts? Is the west a monolith or not? You manage to change your mind on this within the same sentence.

This whole "western stooge" line of argument sounds like something I'd expect from a paranoid Russian ultranationalist, rather than from a supposed liberal. It boils down to "Putin is actually working hand-in-hand with the west to keep Russia down and prevent her from regaining her Imperial Glory".
#15151481
Heisenberg wrote:Gee, imagine that. :lol:
So ridiculous that this week we have major newspapers calling him a "Russian hero" who "needs our backing". :lol:


Heisenberg:

Heisenberg wrote:For the record, I don't deny Navalny's personal courage.


Make up your mind, please. Western media in both cases have reported the truth about Navalny, both ugly(nationalist) and good(bravery to return to Russia). You 're the one who ridiculously insists that Navalny is a "western media star" when almost nobody in the west knows his name at all. I am not saying he is a star, nor that he is a good guy nor a bad guy. I'm not making any judgement calls whatsoever. You are and these judgement calls have been shown to be wrong. Get over it and move on.


Heisenberg wrote:So I take it you think the west is in favour of Russian control of Crimea, and in favour of the Syrian government then? Uh huh. And it voluntarily goes against its own interests by supporting Russian pipelines? Either way, this is a really weird, self-defeating conspiracy.


The west places Putin above the Ukraine, Syria, Georgia and its own faux principles. Indeed.

As I said "the devil we know". Your problem is that this makes more sense that anything you have put forward.

Heisenberg wrote:I don't think you know what ad hominem means. It's dismissing an argument because of who said it. I think your arguments are insane and do not make any sense, regardless of the fact it's you making them. While I've certainly thrown insults around, the only one who has actually made an ad hominem attack in this thread is you, dismissing my arguments out of hand as "agitprop for Putin".


Your graphic meme above is your attempt to insult your interlocutor again. You have used several strawmen, put words in my mouth numerous times, called me several names. I am asking you politely to stop it.

Your narrative is agitproping Putin. I stand by it because that is what your narrative is performing. Igor said "Navalny is more popular in the west than in Russia", you did not call any bullshit despite knowing it's untrue and instead took issue with me proving otherwise, why? because it does not suit your pro-Putin narrative.

You allegedly fail to comprehend how the west is agitproping Putin by doing nothing against his numerous invasions or how Europe is going against its own interests to get gas from Russia while refusing to develop its own gas reserves. You do not fail to comprehend this, you refuse because this runs counter to agitproping Putin.

You brought forward an article that called Navalny a nationalist for supporting the rioters that were beating migrants, while totally ignored that Putin imprisoned the same migrants that were being beaten.

You still fail to say out loud that Putin is worse than Navalny, why? Because your narrative is agitproping Putin.

You called Navalny a "nationalist that will go out of control for the west", now this has been turned on its head you don't know what to say because you 're scared that if you take this to its natural conclusion it may undermine Putin who is well within the control of the west.

Heisenberg wrote:This whole "western stooge" line of argument sounds like something I'd expect from a paranoid Russian ultranationalist, rather than from a supposed liberal. It boils down to "Putin is actually working hand-in-hand with the west to keep Russia down and prevent her from regaining her Imperial Glory".


Another ad-hom in lieu of an argument, but but but you never ever make ad-homs!!! :lol:
#15151498
noemon wrote:Make up your mind, please.

Reading comprehension once again appears to have escaped you.

I think it takes bravery to willingly return to a country where you are wanted as a political prisoner. I do not think it follows that acknowledging this bravery requires me, or anyone else, to support or back Navalny. I also think going off to fight for ISIS takes bravery, but I'm not going to start writing editorials demanding we support them. :lol:

noemon wrote:I am not saying he is a star, nor that he is a good guy nor a bad guy. I'm not making any judgement calls whatsoever.


He is the Keir Starmer of Russia.

Alexei Navalny, the more I read about him the more I take my hat off. This is a guy to be proud of a lot more than former communist appointees.

Navalny has more decency, integrity, & bravery than all his detractors combined

Sounds like an angel compared to Putin

Indeed, your propaganda that Navalny is anything other than a Russian hero risking his own life in the service of Russia and its people has 'no mercy' indeed.

No judgement calls at all...

noemon wrote:The west puts Putin above the Ukraine, Syria, Georgia and its own faux principles. Indeed.

:lol:

noemon wrote:Your graphic meme above is your attempt to insult your interlocutor again. You have used several strawmen, put words in my mouth numerous times, called me several names. I am asking you politely to stop it.

Boo fucking hoo. You started this by making a ludicrous caricature of my position, calling me a racist, and attributing several false quotes to me. When asked to stop, you doubled and then tripled down on it. Don't pretend you've behaved well. I can take all of that, but adding self righteous moral outrage into the mix is a bit much.

noemon wrote:Your narrative is agitproping Putin.

Here we go again! So polite. So focused on the arguments. :lol:

noemon wrote:You still fail to say out loud that Putin is worse than Navalny, why?

Because I don't think that Navalny is necessarily an improvement on Putin, for the reasons I have made very clear throughout this thread: namely, his ties to some particularly grisly people on Russia's far right. Everyone else in this thread seems to grasp that this is my position, apart from you.

My whole position can be summed up pretty succinctly as "be careful what you wish for". You, and a few others, have tried the "anyone is an improvement on Putin" line, and I would suggest that experience and history proves otherwise.

noemon wrote:You called Navalny a "nationalist that will go out of control for the west", now this has been turned on its head you don't know what to say because you 're scared that if you take this to its natural conclusion it may undermine Putin who is well within the control of the west.

I see you're back to reading my mind. Let's see how good you are: I'm currently thinking of a number between 1 and 1000: what is it? :lol:

noemon wrote:Another ad-hom in lieu of an argument, but but but you never ever make ad-homs!!!

Nah, I explained why I think your argument is drivel in the paragraph before. In this case, it's an ad hominem in addition to an argument. ;)

Nonetheless, it's not exactly wrong: your actual position in this thread is that Putin is a stooge of the west whose goal is to keep Russia from reaching its potential. In this regard, you do in fact have quite a lot in common with Russian ultranationalists. :lol:
#15151522
Beren wrote:In my opinion @Heisenberg only tries to say Navalny is not the right man.


The right man for what? Nothing short of a revolution is required to get rid of Putin and his system for good. Hence you need revolutionaries, not politically correct do-gooders.
#15151525
Rugoz wrote:The right man for what? Nothing short of a revolution is required to get rid of Putin and his system for good. Hence you need revolutionaries, not politically correct do-gooders.


Sadly I feel you are closer to the truth than most might think but I always have trouble admitting this. I am not sure why I can't admit it although I have seen countless examples of why it should be the case. :hmm:
#15151528
Heisenberg wrote:Because I don't think that Navalny is necessarily an improvement on Putin, for the reasons I have made very clear throughout this thread: namely, his ties to some particularly grisly people on Russia's far right. Everyone else in this thread seems to grasp that this is my position, apart from you.
My whole position can be summed up pretty succinctly as "be careful what you wish for". You, and a few others, have tried the "anyone is an improvement on Putin" line, and I would suggest that experience and history proves otherwise.


The problem is that you can not even stand by your own arguments.

You used 'nationalism and anti-immigration stance' as the barometre by which Navalny should be judged but when your hypocrisy became prominent since by your own standard Putin is worse according to the article you yourself brought forward you started the ad-homs and insults. Despite this being demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt, you still pretend as if it's untrue. Even right now you still fail to acknowledge this reality, if we judge Navalny and Putin based on how they have treated migrants(which is your argument), then Putin is objectively worse. All the statements I have made for Navalny, have been to highlight this proven fact and in response to your nonsense.

I posted Navalny's positions from the source that you brought in here and you ignored that too because it just makes Navalny look like an average bog-standard conservative and that is way too normal in a thread where you believe only the superlatives will do.

Superlatives is a stage that you set in here.

Heisenberg wrote:Boo fucking hoo. You started this by making a ludicrous caricature of my position, calling me a racist, and attributing several false quotes to me. When asked to stop, you doubled and then tripled down on it. Don't pretend you've behaved well. I can take all of that, but adding self righteous moral outrage into the mix is a bit much.


I was not the one who put words in your own mouth. You said that everything reeks of "Ukraine neo-nazis", you doubled down saying that "democracy can only happen with stolen colonial resources" to justify your stupid claim that democracy in Russia and Ukraine is just not suitable. I would have challenged that regardless of who said it. This is not an attempt to attack you in any way. You feel you 're a victim and that this justifies your pathetic behaviour. It doesn't. You were shown to be wrong, accept it and move on instead of quadrupling down.

Heisenberg wrote:My whole position can be summed up pretty succinctly as "be careful what you wish for". You, and a few others, have tried the "anyone is an improvement on Putin" line, and I would suggest that experience and history proves otherwise. Nonetheless, it's not exactly wrong: your actual position in this thread is that Putin is a stooge of the west whose goal is to keep Russia from reaching its potential. In this regard, you do in fact have quite a lot in common with Russian ultranationalists


You need to do better criticism if you want to be taken seriously, you have spent 10 pages regurgitating the same Putin troll farm tripe over and over again no matter how many times it is thrown back at you. Your arguments being "neo-nazi" or "euromaidan CIA, MI6", I have naturally stood by these 2 narratives and showed you that by your own logic the opposite is true, as these are the only 2 narratives you or anyone else in fact have forwarded in here. You have aped pro-Putin Russian troll ultra-nationalist propaganda through and through and now you don't have anything else left.

I actually want Russia to improve her position both internally and externally. I want to see Russia prosper, I want to see Russian people discussing, and solving their numerous problems in a fair and open manner. I want to see all the political prisoners released, free elections to take place, Russia to return to its natural position as it was under the Concert of Europe. I empathise with the Russian condition because I have grown up in state that has been treated as sub-par, ridiculed and treated either as a leper or irrelevant.

You on the other hand went as far as claiming that democracy cannot happen in Russia because of "a lack of colonial resources" or because of "neo-nazis", I corrected you and you have lost the plot ever since.

Get a grip, take a step back and find your equilibrium.
#15151529
JohnRawls wrote:Sadly I feel you are closer to the truth than most might think but I always have trouble admitting this. I am not sure why I can't admit it although I have seen countless examples of why it should be the case. :hmm:

Could you imagine Putin overthrown democratically? :lol:
#15151531
Rugoz wrote:Nothing short of a revolution is required to get rid of Putin and his system for good.


Navalny clearly doesn't think he can have much effect outside of Russia than he does inside. But whilst he has his admirers within Europe, people obviously haven't read the memo. Giving Guaido lip service didn't remove Maduro and patching up Navalny and sending him back home won't do much either. Navalny will be tolerated until he becomes a pest and then locked up on some trumped up charge. He simply doesn't have the movement the West wish he had behind him to do anything inside or outside Russia. He should have stayed in Germany.
#15151532
Beren wrote:Could you imagine Putin overthrown democratically? :lol:


That is the weird thing that no, not likely at all but I would have trouble admitting it if asked how to change Russia.
#15151534
Rugoz wrote:The right man for what? Nothing short of a revolution is required to get rid of Putin and his system for good. Hence you need revolutionaries, not politically correct do-gooders.

Sorry, but the ideology of the revolutionaries matters. A "revolution" led by right-wing nationalists is unlikely to bring about a thriving democracy, to put it mildly.

@noemon I really can't be bothered to argue with you any more. I don't like you, you don't like me, we aren't ever going to agree, and we're both clearly too stubborn to try and find common ground, so let's just call it quits. I'm sure it's just as boring and irritating for you as it is for me.
#15151537
Beren wrote:Could you imagine Putin overthrown democratically? :lol:


I can. Putin is not as strong as people imagine with images of him shirtless riding on a horse or whatever. He is growing old and no replacement is on the horizon.

He presides over poverty, stagnation, foreign adventurism, and ultra-cronyism.

Russians have access to Europe, have relatives all around Europe, they talk to each other, they know that something is wrong and know that something must change.

It can happen.

Do you know what is required for it to happen, discussing these matters logically without memes and propaganda but seriously and with calm. Russians are smart and educated people.

Heisenberg wrote:@noemon I really can't be bothered to argue with you any more. I don't like you, you don't like me, we aren't ever going to agree, and we're both clearly too stubborn to try and find common ground, so let's just call it quits. I'm sure it's just as boring and irritating for you as it is for me.


If you don't want to discuss with me, then don't.

I like you enough to have offered you a moderator position. I have always liked you. Just because I have disagreed with you it doesn't mean I don't like you. If I were like that I would not be discussing with anybody in here.
#15151539
JohnRawls wrote:That is the weird thing that no, not likely at all but I would have trouble admitting it if asked how to change Russia.

Russia has been changing anyway, it's not the same Russia as it was when Putin started, you don't need a revolution for that. You only need a revolution to get rid of Putin, if that's what you want.

noemon wrote:Putin is not as strong as people imagine with images of him shirtless riding on a horse or whatever.

Elections in Russia still go according to his scripts, presidential and duma elections especially, so he mostly gets the results he wants.
#15151609
@noemon ;

Despite the obvious truth of Russia being a separate civilization from the West, you double down without any contrary facts, saying of the Russian writers and thinkers I mentioned;

Having read them it is quite apparent that they belong to the tradition of European writers.


Very wrong, but given your intransigence, let's move on;

You claimed that both the Czar Romanovs and the Communists were foreign traitors and that neither of them are representatives of 'Russianess'. You 're calling me 'disingenuous' for pointing out your own contradictions which is indeed the very height of being disingenuous.


What ''contradictions"? Besides, I never made out like they were a solid uniform bloc of Westernizers anyway, either Tsars or Soviet leaders, as some of them did what they thought best for Russia even when totally besotted with Western ideas and techniques.

On Orthodoxy

You see, you don't believe your own nonsense.


What? :eh:


You claim that Orthodoxy should be Ecumenical instead of national but you go against the Ecumenical Patriarchate because it is politically convenient to you.


Whoah, stop right there. The title ''ecumenical patriarch'' doesn't make the patriarch of Constantinople a Pope. All Bishops of the Orthodox Church, which is the Universal Church established by Christ, are equals. If some have grand titles it is because of the dignity of their See historically, not deriving from spiritual power within the Church.


You believe that the Ukraine should be subject to the Russian priesthood


The Ukraine is a land inhabited by Russians, either Velikorussians or Malorussians, or Rusyns, but all Russians. Many if not most were and still are quite happy to remain under the spiritual jurisdiction or Omphorion of the Moscow Patriarchate, as they have been so since the 1600's. The Patriarch of Constantinople literally has no canonical authority to create an artificial autocephaly from a jurisdiction he has no spiritual leadership over to begin with.

instead of appointing its own priests to speak to its own people like Russia, Bulgaria, Albania and so many others do. You accuse me of seeing this "politically" when you see it from the perspective of a Russian imperialist.


That is the exact opposite of the true situation, as I explained above.

If you saw it as "One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church", you would not hate on your religious brethren for no actual reason nor would you defy the decisions of the Holy Synod, decisions made on the exact same principle that made the Russian Church itself Autocephalous and Independent.


''Hate''? Hate rather is what is impelling the uncanonical creation of this fake autocephalous ''church'', which will in a few short years without a doubt subject itself to the Vatican.

But most Russians are not like you, they defy these Russian nonsense and visit our churches every Sunday with no meat whatsoever. Russian ultra-nationalist/imperialist politics do not fracture our Church that has survived a lot more waves throughout the centuries.


People these days are often ignorant of even the most elementary beliefs of the Christian faith, much less the rules by which the Church governs itself.

Your petty nationalism means nothing, eventually Putin will go and his politics will go too, while our Church is eternal and the oldest religious organisation in continuous and unbroken existence. You 're just lost as a nation and it is clear why, you have not had the chance to have a proper national conversation for at least 100 years, your national wounds fester without resolution, you have gone from one tin-pot dictator to another and you believe that this is the right way for you instead of grabbing fate in your own national hands. It's sad.


Once more you assume a tremendous deal, and project your own national tragedy of failing to recover spiritually from the Turkocratia, and the supine assumption of seductive Western ways in the 19th century as your nation was being reborn, onto Russia. I said '' failing to recover'', but more than a few of what are mockingly referred to as ''Old Calendarists'', traditional Orthodox Christians, know quite well that this is true. But there's plenty of people in every land who will sell out their spiritual heritage and truths for the promise of material wealth in modern capitalism...
#15151619
annatar1914 wrote:Very wrong, but given your intransigence, let's move on;


You are wrong to call these Russian writers non-European, and since you made the claim and provided not a single argument why that is, other than "I said it it must be true" then I can tell you back the same.

What ''contradictions"? Besides, I never made out like they were a solid uniform bloc of Westernizers anyway, either Tsars or Soviet leaders, as some of them did what they thought best for Russia even when totally besotted with Western ideas and techniques.


The contradiction of creating false dichotomies and then falling victim to your own false dichotomies. I have mentioned these false dichotomies numerous times namely the "aggressor", "integrator" and the "communalist", "individualist". Your author also spoke of the "anti-wealth" derision which are all hallmarks of 70 years of communism, when you were told that you said: communism is just "western liberalism gone mad". You redefine any term just to say something, no matter how inane that may be.

Whoah, stop right there. The title ''ecumenical patriarch'' doesn't make the patriarch of Constantinople a Pope. All Bishops of the Orthodox Church, which is the Universal Church established by Christ, are equals. If some have grand titles it is because of the dignity of their See historically, not deriving from spiritual power within the Church. The Ukraine is a land inhabited by Russians, either Velikorussians or Malorussians, or Rusyns, but all Russians. Many if not most were and still are quite happy to remain under the spiritual jurisdiction or Omphorion of the Moscow Patriarchate, as they have been so since the 1600's. The Patriarch of Constantinople literally has no canonical authority to create an artificial autocephaly from a jurisdiction he has no spiritual leadership over to begin with.
People these days are often ignorant of even the most elementary beliefs of the Christian faith, much less the rules by which the Church governs itself.


The decision was made by the Holy Synod as is customary and proper thousands of years now in our Church. The Ukrainians petitioned our Church to grant them Autocephaly just like Russia was granted Autocephaly along with Serbia, Bulgaria and many other countries.

''Hate''? Hate rather is what is impelling the uncanonical creation of this fake autocephalous ''church'', which will in a few short years without a doubt subject itself to the Vatican.


Hateful anti-Orthodox trolls have been saying that for a thousand years. You are proactively undermining our Church and Religion for your petty Russian nationalism.

Once more you assume a tremendous deal, and project your own national tragedy of failing to recover spiritually from the Turkocratia, and the supine assumption of seductive Western ways in the 19th century as your nation was being reborn, onto Russia. I said '' failing to recover'', but more than a few of what are mockingly referred to as ''Old Calendarists'', traditional Orthodox Christians, know quite well that this is true. But there's plenty of people in every land who will sell out their spiritual heritage and truths for the promise of material wealth in modern capitalism...


My nation is doing just fine with what it has, you have everything and doing shit. You are selling our church in the gutter for your petty feelings. You give reasons for others to mock us and sow disunity because you cannot digest reality, that the Ukraine is no longer a Russian territory.
#15151639
@noemon, alright, it's clear that we of all people, sharing a common faith and on this day the synaxis of the St. John the forerunner, are now in a minefield of misunderstandings, so I'll take the first step to see if we can turn back from that ;

You are wrong to call these Russian writers non-European, and since you made the claim and provided not a single argument why that is, other than "I said it it must be true" then I can tell you back the same.


I, like many Russian and Orthodox Christians, define the West in spiritual terms related to it's loss of Orthodoxy, of it being in a state of spiritual poor health, and spreading that sickness around the world. Most of the men I mentioned were Orthodox Christians, and Anti-Socialist and Anti-Communist as well.

The contradiction of creating false dichotomies and then falling victim to your own false dichotomies. I have mentioned these false dichotomies numerous times namely the "aggressor", "integrator" and the "communalist", "individualist". Your author also spoke of the "anti-wealth" derision which are all hallmarks of 70 years of communism, when you were told that you said: communism is just "western liberalism gone mad". You redefine any term just to say something, no matter how inane that may be.


I'm sure you're aware that the Fathers aren't exactly fond of the Wealthy either, right? Here's where I'm trying to find some common ground with you. I mean, if it is possible to have an ethical and philanthropic Capitalism, an Orthodox Christian Capitalism, by my own nature I'd be the first to want to believe in it. Perhaps you do not read my posts that much, but I do mention my sympathies with the so-called ''Old Believer'' Orthodox, and my familial relations to them also. They basically were the Capitalists, the Bourgeoisie, to a large degree in pre-revolutionary Russia, despite the official Tsarist persecution of them which Solzhenitsyn said produced at least 15 million martyrs over a period of 300 years. They frequently made a shining example of what is possible under a Capitalist system. I'm not a doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist.


The decision was made by the Holy Synod as is customary and proper thousands of years now in our Church. The Ukrainians petitioned our Church to grant them Autocephaly just like Russia was granted Autocephaly along with Serbia, Bulgaria and many other countries.


A minority petitioned Constantinople, when under the Moscow Patriarchate the faithful in Ukraine are already largely autonomous just as ROCOR is overseas in North America and elsewhere.

But as I was earlier trying to indicate, my sympathies I mentioned before give me open eyes when it comes to the official clergy over the Church, given the previous history.



Hateful anti-Orthodox trolls have been saying that for a thousand years. You are proactively undermining our Church and Religion for your petty Russian nationalism.


How do you think the original ''Unia'' began in the first place? It was by force and fraud and people found themselves being forced to submit to the Papacy. Like I said, you misjudge me, and perhaps people like me.


My nation is doing just fine with what it has, you have everything and doing shit. My mother is an Old Calendarist. You are selling our church in the gutter for your petty feelings. You give reasons for others to mock us and sow disunity because you cannot digest reality, that the Ukraine is no longer a Russian territory.


The Ukraine is now a German and American elites territory, same as the rest of the EU.

But aside from that @noemon , when I try to indicate to you where my heart lies in these matters, mentioning traditional Orthodox Christian groups such as the ''Old Calendarists'' and ''Old Believers'', I'm tying to get you to see that I'm not thinking as a ''petty nationalist'' or whatever, but as a Christian trying to see to it that our common faith is preserved. It isn't being preserved by Bartholomew in the Phanar, he the ecumenist, the Turkish military reserve officer and graduate of the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, is it? I'm not saying Kiril in Moscow is doing such a good job of it either, but still...

As to Navalny, and Putin, these men (whatever else they are or are not) are transitional figures. The political leadership to come will (by will of God and the Russian People) be Orthodox and Patriotic. Some do not want to see that happen, out in the world, of course.

Glad to hear when any of my brethren are prayed for by the pious, for I myself am a wretched sinner.
#15151645
annatar1914 wrote:I, like many Russian and Orthodox Christians, define the West in spiritual terms related to it's loss of Orthodoxy, of it being in a state of spiritual poor health, and spreading that sickness around the world. Most of the men I mentioned were Orthodox Christians, and Anti-Socialist and Anti-Communist as well. I'm sure you're aware that the Fathers aren't exactly fond of the Wealthy either, right? Here's where I'm trying to find some common ground with you. I mean, if it is possible to have an ethical and philanthropic Capitalism, an Orthodox Christian Capitalism, by my own nature I'd be the first to want to believe in it. Perhaps you do not read my posts that much, but I do mention my sympathies with the so-called ''Old Believer'' Orthodox, and my familial relations to them also. They basically were the Capitalists, the Bourgeoisie, to a large degree in pre-revolutionary Russia, despite the official Tsarist persecution of them which Solzhenitsyn said produced at least 15 million martyrs over a period of 300 years. They frequently made a shining example of what is possible under a Capitalist system. I'm not a doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist.


You are only using that whenever is convenient to you. Normal people do not care how you define Russia and Europe.

Reality is independent of your religious prejudice. Russian history is a fact. Russia is a European nation like all the rest. It has been for centuries.

I'm sure you're aware that the Fathers aren't exactly fond of the Wealthy either, right? Here's where I'm trying to find some common ground with you. I mean, if it is possible to have an ethical and philanthropic Capitalism, an Orthodox Christian Capitalism, by my own nature I'd be the first to want to believe in it. Perhaps you do not read my posts that much, but I do mention my sympathies with the so-called ''Old Believer'' Orthodox, and my familial relations to them also. They basically were the Capitalists, the Bourgeoisie, to a large degree in pre-revolutionary Russia, despite the official Tsarist persecution of them which Solzhenitsyn said produced at least 15 million martyrs over a period of 300 years. They frequently made a shining example of what is possible under a Capitalist system. I'm not a doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist.


Honestly, I do not care for your use and abuse of the Christian Old Calendarist interpretation in the service of sowing disunity among the Orthodox, the Christians and the Europeans. That is not Christian but anti-christian down to its very core. More to the point, there can be neither charity nor power, nor independence without wealth. Our Church has the civilisation to treat all matters in a democratic fashion, using Holy Synods and asking everybody's opinion. Democracy is not a dirty word that implies "wokeness, cultural degeneracy" and other nonsense. It is the only political expression for Logos/Logic to manifest itself through dialogue.

A minority petitioned Constantinople, when under the Moscow Patriarchate the faithful in Ukraine are already largely autonomous just as ROCOR is overseas in North America and elsewhere.


The Ukrainian nation petitioned Constantinople, like Russia, Bulgaria and Serbia had done themselves in the past.

How do you think the original ''Unia'' began in the first place? It was by force and fraud and people found themselves being forced to submit to the Papacy. Like I said, you misjudge me, and perhaps people like me. But aside from that @noemon , when I try to indicate to you where my heart lies in these matters, mentioning traditional Orthodox Christian groups such as the ''Old Calendarists'' and ''Old Believers'', I'm tying to get you to see that I'm not thinking as a ''petty nationalist'' or whatever, but as a Christian trying to see to it that our common faith is preserved. It isn't being preserved by Bartholomew in the Phanar, he the ecumenist, the Turkish military reserve officer and graduate of the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, is it? I'm not saying Kiril in Moscow is doing such a good job of it either, but still...


I don't misjudge you at all. You 're explicitly defending a Russian excommunication against the Orthodox for petty nationalist reasons.

All petty nationalists use religion as a cover for their nationalism, imperialism, terrorists do the same.
#15151691
noemon wrote:You are only using that whenever is convenient to you. Normal people do not care how you define Russia and Europe.

Reality is independent of your religious prejudice. Russian history is a fact. Russia is a European nation like all the rest. It has been for centuries.



Honestly, I do not care for your use and abuse of the Christian Old Calendarist interpretation in the service of sowing disunity among the Orthodox, the Christians and the Europeans. That is not Christian but anti-christian down to its very core. More to the point, there can be neither charity nor power, nor independence without wealth. Our Church has the civilisation to treat all matters in a democratic fashion, using Holy Synods and asking everybody's opinion. Democracy is not a dirty word that implies "wokeness, cultural degeneracy" and other nonsense. It is the only political expression for Logos/Logic to manifest itself through dialogue.



The Ukrainian nation petitioned Constantinople, like Russia, Bulgaria and Serbia had done themselves in the past.



I don't misjudge you at all. You 're explicitly defending a Russian excommunication against the Orthodox for petty nationalist reasons.

All petty nationalists use religion as a cover for their nationalism, imperialism, terrorists do the same.


@noemon ;

At this point, with you mistaking everything I say (whether deliberately or out of emotional reflex, doesn't matter), I think it would be best to put this conversation at an end. If you read what I have said, you will find that you have quit simply wronged me and my positions.
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