[Beren]

Is this supposed to be a blog?

[Local Localist]

Is this supposed to be a blog?

Might as well be at this point, nobody else engages with it.

[Wellsy]

I wonder why America doesn’t have a labour or workers party that remains prominent even if it were a coopted one like the labour parties in Australia and the UK. There do seem to be those interested in workers rights in such parties but lost their edge and seem much like liberal reformers at times, centrists.
To not have representatives of our class seems a huge lacking although it is insufficient for workers in their struggle. I like the example of the Bolsheviks in vying for both legal political power and using illegal organization and agitation.

[B0ycey]

I wonder why America doesn’t have a labour or workers party that remains prominent even if it were a coopted one like the labour parties in Australia and the UK.

I think the problem with America, is there system only favors a two party system @Wellsy. The same is true for the UK as well I guess, but a marginal MP seat is significantly more easier to gain for a fringe party than an entire state. Which is why we have an array of different parties, including Labour. Although I will say UK Labour isn't the same party since new Labour became a thing.

So is there hope for America? Not really. Or not yet anyway. The lobbyists have their fingers in the system and super delegates manipulate movements that are growing. The only way you can break this is to back someone like Sanders and put all effort behind that candidate specifically. Or in laymen, you need a Socialist reformer to infiltrate a party and get the nomination in one of the main parties rather than create a US Labour party.

[Steve_American]

I think the problem with America, is there system only favors a two party system @Wellsy. The same is true for the UK as well I guess, but a marginal MP seat is significantly more easier to gain for a fringe party than an entire state. Which is why we have an array of different parties, including Labour. Although I will say UK Labour isn't the same party since new Labour became a thing.

So is there hope for America? Not really. Or not yet anyway. The lobbyists have their fingers in the system and super delegates manipulate movements that are growing. The only way you can break this is to back someone like Sanders and put all effort behind that candidate specifically. Or in laymen, you need a Socialist reformer to infiltrate a party and get the nomination in one of the main parties rather than create a US Labour party.

Yes, the problem in America is the 1st past the post voting system. This combined with the Senate makes it very unlikely that a minor party can gain control of the Gov.

IMHO, the only non-violent solution is for the progressives and workers of America to go out into the street like the Black Lives Matter people did.

. . . In the street they can see just how may of us there are.
. . . This will work because there is a Progressive mass of voters consisting of all who agree with the many things that the American say they want by 65% totals in polls.
. . . They just need to meet in the street and realize that they are actually the majority of the voters.
. . . The corporate media refuse to cover any progressive candidates, like they did to Bernie in 2020.
. . . The internet lets Progressive candidates collect large amounts of campaign contributions and now go around the media to communicate with each other.

One thing that Progressives must do is to reject many things that liberals have begun to do. The main one is to 'virtue signal' by demanding the everyone who is not 100% pure be thrown out of the tent. There is a very old proverb that goes; 'politics makes strange bedfellows'.
If you insist on kicking all the 'strange bedfellows' out of your political bed, you will not have a 'big tent', and you will lose. There is zero doubt that this cancel culture purity thing was invented by the Oligarchs in order to weaken the liberals and made them lose. You are playing their game to do that.
. . . Right now, everyone should be allowed into the tent who agrees on just 3 things. They are 1] that the vote by all the citizens is sacred & the most votes wins; 2] we need a set of economic programs to help the bottom half of the population live better lives; and 3] we must win the fight against ACC.
. . . The 1st 2 are what we need to get the most votes, and the 3rd is a priority because we don't have time to waste in that fight.

The Black Lives Matter protests didn't win (or didn't win much) because they were done on behalf of a minority. Progressives are not the minority. They are the majority. The problem is that they are not yet united behind one set of attainable goals.

Chris Hedges has said that every successful people's movement has begun by going into the streets. Americans just have not done that for a long time.

History shows that the Revolutionary War happened because the people met in the streets. In the early to middle 1800s political campaigns were mostly parades. The phrase 'get on the bandwagon' came from then. Now, Americans just don't do it anymore. France does and the UK is starting to. We have to rediscover this critical tool. The time is right now and extending until the 2022 election. And then, until the 2024 election.
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[B0ycey]

IMHO, the only non-violent solution is for the progressives and workers of America to go out into the street like the Black Lives Matter people did.
.

I certainly agree with most of your post and I don't disagree the solution is to go on the streets and protest eventually. But America is a divided nation and the problems of the system are blamed by the wrong people currently. If the progressives (Democrats) went onto the streets and protested and caused destruction now, the moderates would then side with the extremists views and you will get Trump or someone like him in power next term. I guess the only solution is education. Explain why America needs a radical reform. Socialism is growing in America slowly due to people understanding the situation better and every election cycle we see, more people start backing Sanders given the younger the voter, the more 'Lefty' his view. If the movement can grow to the point that is is the consensus of a significant portion of the US population, that is the time to protest like in every revolution in history as that is the concesus of the voter. Today, I don't think Socialism is even the majority thought in America so any form of protest now won't convince anyone.

[wat0n]

I think the problem with America, is there system only favors a two party system @Wellsy. The same is true for the UK as well I guess, but a marginal MP seat is significantly more easier to gain for a fringe party than an entire state. Which is why we have an array of different parties, including Labour. Although I will say UK Labour isn't the same party since new Labour became a thing.

So is there hope for America? Not really. Or not yet anyway. The lobbyists have their fingers in the system and super delegates manipulate movements that are growing. The only way you can break this is to back someone like Sanders and put all effort behind that candidate specifically. Or in laymen, you need a Socialist reformer to infiltrate a party and get the nomination in one of the main parties rather than create a US Labour party.

I think that's only one side of the coin. The US even back in the 19th century didn't have nearly as many revolutionary workers' unions as Europe did at the time, as far as I'm aware. American unions were and still are far more concerned with getting concrete benefits than achieving some major systemic change AFAIK.

[B0ycey]

I think that's only one side of the coin. The US even back in the 19th century didn't have nearly as many revolutionary workers' unions as Europe did at the time, as far as I'm aware.

The mere fact we are discussing unions at all is a problem in itself @wat0n. I don't know what percentage of unions were in America compared to Europe at any given time, or how revolutionary they were (my father was a union rep and wasn't revolutionary but demanded better standards and wages for his members as an example), only that unions were part of the American economic fabric within the past century and that isn't true now hence the BS wages and conditions and job vacancies not being taken up because of them.

But that is besides the point and only part of the problems in America right now. America's problem is their entire system is unfair and is spliting their society into two. Where people are looking at the extremes as a solution to their problems. Where those in power do not represent the voters but themselves and both political parties are sponsored by the same type of lobbyists anyway. There is no difference between Republicans and Democrats, the only difference is their voter base. So I would be surprised if in the future people do stand up and are counted and make it onto the streets to demand change. But we aren't there yet given people would rather fight amongst their own class than demand change and those who are waking up are the younger generation who also are the generation that are being left behind.

[Steve_American]

I certainly agree with most of your post and I don't disagree the solution is to go on the streets and protest eventually. But America is a divided nation and the problems of the system are blamed by the wrong people currently. If the progressives (Democrats) went onto the streets and protested and caused destruction now, the moderates would then side with the extremists views and you will get Trump or someone like him in power next term. I guess the only solution is education. Explain why America needs a radical reform. Socialism is growing in America slowly due to people understanding the situation better and every election cycle we see, more people start backing Sanders given the younger the voter, the more 'Lefty' his view. If the movement can grow to the point that is is the consensus of a significant portion of the US population, that is the time to protest like in every revolution in history as that is the concesus of the voter. Today, I don't think Socialism is even the majority thought in America so any form of protest now won't convince anyone.

In my view the BLM protests were remarkably peaceful.
Yes, there was some violence.
However, over 90% of them were totally non-violent. IIRC.
Even the violent ones only saw violence by maybe 5% of the protesters.

Contrast this with Jan. 6th. There 100% of the 1 and only protest was violent.
Or, 50%, if you separate the violent part from the peaceful part.
And, way more than 5% of the mob at the Capitol was violent.

I'm calling for totally non-violent protests.
I'm not even sure we need to block streets.
We just need to show up and be there day after day.
Also, make videos and share them on line.
I just want 10s of millions in the streets. Being peaceful.
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[Political Interest]

There is little hope for the labour movement when the working people don't want to vote for it.

They had the chance to pick Corbyn but they rejected him for various reasons, notably that he was middle class.

[B0ycey]

If I recall correctly, there was a lot of looting and vandalism with BLM @Steve_American. In fact, we were discussing that more than racism on PoFo at the time because there looting and vandalism happening and that makes a more of an interesting story for the media which in turn dictates what posts we make. I suspect most protests were peaceful, but that doesn't matter when you have an objective. The violence is what matters more for moderates and now we are back at the beginning, with just as much racism as before because to ordinary people, they side with the least destructive movement.

Having said that I agree it would be great if tens of millions did indeed protest and not loot or cause destruction for radical change, but these types of movements always attract those types as well as the peaceful types. And to be frank, Socialism is growing but we aren't there yet and America is perhaps much further behind than the West in general. So I would rather wait and see what the next generation brings to the table. Because one thing I am absolutely certain of is the status quo is not sustainable forever.

[B0ycey]

They had the chance to pick Corbyn but they rejected him for various reasons, notably that he was middle class.

People didn't reject his policies and the last election was the Brexit election in any case. Corbyn was the right man with the wrong history and his voter base are the next generation of voters which means the next Corbynite may well steal the show if they can get back into leadership given they won't be associated with terrorism sympathy.

Never give up hope.

[Rancid]

Tl;dr: We don't have the culture for a labor movement. It's not even about the system that is in place and how entrenched it is.

I don't think there's any hope for some sort of true and sustained labor movement in America.

We worship corporations and the individuals that run them. People like Bezos, Musk, Gates, ZUckerberg, Buffert, etc. have actual fan bases in America. I work with people that are fans of these people. People hang on their words like they are prophets. Hell, Buffet is in fact nick named "The oracle of Ohmaha". How can a labor movement be born out of that culture?

Fans, people are fucking fans of rich assholes that would throw us all to curb in a moments notice. Even our poor worship these assholes. The culture here is a little more dog eat dog, and it is viewed as good and right. That is to say, everything is your fault and your fault alone even if the system is stacked against. Funny enough, I think this is also what has helped America become such a strong economy. It forces everyone to get out there and "make it". Lots of successes, but also lots of failures, and lots of people left behind. It's economic mad max baby! This is also where the optimistic attitude in Americans tends to come from. Which is interesting. YOU have to be optimistic and believe you can "make it" in such a system. Like I said, many actually do "make it", including me. At a huge cost to those that don't "make it".


"Look at me! I'm making it! I may live badly, but at least I don't have to work to do it"
- Richard Linklater's Slacker

Side note: Did you know that it is in Amazon's business plan/strategy to churn through warehouse workers? That is to say, Amazon is not interested in employee retention, they expect and want their workers to work for them for no more than about two years. The idea being, Amazon churns through the population of desperate workers to save money since few people stay long enough to get raises and promotions. On the surface it sounds unsustainable, but what they do in parallel to this is invest in automation so that the number of people they have to churn through shrinks as they churn through the population. They're in a race to be fully automated before they get to a point where no one wants to work for them. The end goal being "Lights out" at wear houses. Meaning, they can turn off all the lights in a warehouse and it will still work because it's all a bunch of robots that don't need light to do their job.

[B0ycey]

Side note: Did you know that it is in Amazon's business plan/strategy to churn through warehouse workers? That is to say, Amazon is not interested in employee retention, they expect and want their workers to work for them for no more than about two years. The idea being, Amazon churns through the population of desperate workers to save money since few people stay long enough to get raises and promotions. On the surface it sounds unsustainable, but what they do in parallel to this is invest in automation so that the number of people they have to churn through shrinks as they churn through the population.

Amazon UK are having to pay people a signing in fee just to work there. And their wages here are actually exceptional for warehouse working so if Americans are getting fucked over by Bezos, then they need to see what is happening in the UK right now. And high turn out isn't much good if people can't buy the stuff Amazon sells in any case. But really it is up to people to work out what is happening right now and act accordingly. And perhaps they are starting to smell the coffee by not accepting BS wages and shit conditions. I had a thread the other month about McDonald's hiring 14 year olds rather than actually addressing their pay and conditions and I was greeted with, yeah hiring kids is good and Maccies workers don't deserve good pay because the job is low skilled blah blah blah, rather than people saying, yeah McDonald's shouldn't be fleecing their workers and address why they aren't attracting new staff rather than looking for loopholes for their labor shortages and actually if the job doesn't appeal to people, then that alone is worthy of a pay rise despite the skill level. So perhaps Americans are the own worse enemy by looking for excuses than seeing the elephant in the room. So perhaps you guys aren't ready for labor movements which is why they don't exist as you say. Or maybe some of America are, the Blue states as I do see movements occurring in the youth age bracket in America, the blogs, the movements, the voice etc and unions gaining traction. But like the UK it seems to be a generation at best away. But unlike the UK, the Tories despite their sins do strive for a high skilled, high wage economy and I noticed minimum wage went up again in the last budget which is witchcraft in America to even suggest a $15 minimum wage.

[Rancid]

Amazon UK are having to pay people a signing in fee just to work there. And their wages here are actually exceptional for warehouse working so if Americans are getting fucked over by Bezos, then they need to see what is happening in the UK right now. And high turn out isn't much good if people can't buy the stuff Amazon sells in any case. But really it is up to people to work out what is happening right now and act accordingly. And perhaps they are starting to smell the coffee by not accepting BS wages and shit conditions. I had a thread the other month about McDonald's hiring 14 year olds rather than actually addressing their pay and conditions and I was greeted with, yeah hiring kids is good and Maccies workers don't deserve good pay because the job is low skilled blah blah blah, rather than people saying, yeah McDonald's shouldn't be fleecing their workers and address why they aren't attracting new staff rather than looking for loopholes for their labor shortages and actually if the job doesn't appeal to people, then that alone is worthy of a pay rise despite the skill level. So perhaps Americans are the own worse enemy by looking for excuses than seeing the elephant in the room. So perhaps you guys aren't ready for labor movements which is why they don't exist as you say. Or maybe some of America are, the Blue states as I do see movements occurring in the youth age bracket in America, the blogs, the movements, the voice etc and unions gaining traction. But like the UK it seems to be a generation at best away. But unlike the UK, the Tories despite their sins do strive for a high skilled, high wage economy and I noticed minimum wage went up again in the last budget which is witchcraft in America to even suggest a $15 minimum wage.

What American worker is going to go study what is happening in the UK though?

[B0ycey]

What American worker is going to go study what is happening in the UK though?

It only takes one to tell the rest. Besides, it all depends on what working conditions people are willing to accept. If the dogma is worshipping corporations and the billionaires that own them, then ultimately the worker gets shit on and the fault lands on the worker for accepting that condition. But America wasn't always anti Union and the dogma is changing in any case. The question now moves to will the change be sustainable and if so when will the straw snap. This is Dia-Mat in motion and the numbers are in the 99% not the 1%

[ingliz]

high wage economy

After allowing for inflation (4.9%) and the rise in NI contribution (1.5%), the increase in National Minimum Wage amounts to less than 2p per hour (68p per week).

So much for your high-wage economy.

[B0ycey]

So much for your high-wage economy.

Not that I don't demand an even higher minimum wage to make work pay, it should be said that clearly wages have rose SIGNIFICANTLY above inflation since the 60s given the last time you trolled me the equaviance of wages would mean a weeks wage today was more than your house back then. And although I would say we aren't a high wage economy now, or that we will ever be, we clearly are better than what Americans are as their minimum wage is $7 an hour.

[ingliz]

a weeks wage today

Are you being paid over £7,000 a week, or do you just have difficulty with numbers?

[B0ycey]

Are you being paid over £7,000 a week or just mathematically challenged?

Well, I didn't say earnings equaviance this time but wages today compared to your house back then. Perhaps you are reading challenged.

Anyway, I am not on the train this time and don't have to rely in Potes dodgy Dollar converter. Average wages in the 60s was £14 and when converted average wages in 2021 back to 1960 that is £30. So double better off so above inflation which was my point.