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By wat0n
#15153203
XogGyux wrote:Woulnd't be holding my breath for that. Didn't we have economic progress with Obama after yet another republican destroyed the economy? Did it help anything?
I mean, you say "all americans" but that seems kind of utopian.
We are not dealing with rational people. If you gave all Americans a mansion, a Bentley and 2billion dollars they would still be complaining about pizzagate, pedophiles and communism. You have people in this thread that have argued in the past that vaccines are part of a conspiracy by billgates to implant tracking chips into people. It is pretty hard to convince people with rational arguments and evidence when the thought processing unit is defective to begin with. :lol:


Maybe you or @Rancid did but my understanding is that the decline of rural America has been going on essentially uninterrupted since the late 20th century, regardless of who's in charge. It's unclear to me whether there would be so much whining about random stuff if the situation was different - I guess there would still be, but I still think it's fair to point this out.

This is also not something politicians could (or should) have stopped since there are good reasons for why it happened - but the transition could have arguably been managed better.
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By annatar1914
#15153226
ingliz wrote:Are you sure?

List of lawsuits involving Donald Trump


:lol:


@ingliz ;

Yes, I am certain President Trump is going to be around for a while, politically speaking, whether I or anyone else personally likes it or not is irrelevant. That man has been involved in myriads of lawsuits his entire adult life, I don't think he'll drown in the ocean he swims in.
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By annatar1914
#15153227
Pants-of-dog wrote:@annatar1914

Feel free to provide an example from the past of Trump playing any long term strategy politically speaking. You do not have to give away his current supposed plan.


@Pants-of-dog ;

It's out there, for anyone smart enough and willing enough to see it. I'll just say that I'm open to not underestimate him and almost just leave it at that... Well, maybe not quite; I spent a great deal of time trying to explain his worldview and his ''ideology''.

Imagine overlapping circles that each represent these elements;

America/American Exceptionalism----------Israel/World Jewry/Zionism---------Capitalism/Objectivism-influenced philosophy--------Himself and his family--------Anti-Communism/Anti-Socialism

All these are fused together pretty much with him and rise and fall together. Now think of a long term strategy that attempts to save all these elements.
By pugsville
#15153231
annatar1914 wrote:@Pants-of-dog ;

It's out there, for anyone smart enough and willing enough to see it. I'll just say that I'm open to not underestimate him and almost just leave it at that... Well, maybe not quite; I spent a great deal of time trying to explain his worldview and his ''ideology''.

Imagine overlapping circles that each represent these elements;

America/American Exceptionalism----------Israel/World Jewry/Zionism---------Capitalism/Objectivism-influenced philosophy--------Himself and his family--------Anti-Communism/Anti-Socialism

All these are fused together pretty much with him and rise and fall together. Now think of a long term strategy that attempts to save all these elements.



It;s the vibe of thing, don't bother he with details, rational; explanations or coherent argument thaose things are just so pre-Trump. Trump is post-rationalist,

Yeah other people need to think up rational explanations for your BS.

No we do not .

If you unable to it;s fine, you can admit that your amongst friends.
By Finfinder
#15153233
annatar1914 wrote:Weeks later and we're still talking about this election, and still talking about President Trump. It seems like this 2020 election will go down in history like the other contested elections of US history, except that this is all happening when this nation has serious internal problems and a definite case of Imperial over-extension worldwide.

Trump has broken Liberals, he really has. And the GOP establishment as well. I well understand their motivations for all this Impeachment madness-they don't want President Trump running for and winning a second Presidential term in 2024, at all costs-which is interesting in itself...I guess people in the Deep State are not as dismissive of Trump as a political foe as their propaganda from 2015-2020 has tried to suggest to the public.

Fact is, I think in important respects President Trump is even more powerful now than when he was President, accomplishing several strategic goals already which favor his longer term planning. Or rather, he is letting his opponents help him accomplish his long term strategic goals for him.


They are still talking about it because they are scared shitless that the more right minded voters are figuring out the value and power of collectivism.
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By Tainari88
#15153234
blackjack21 wrote:The neoconservatives/neoliberals describe themselves as Trotskyists who have been mugged by reality. They are using capitalism toward an end, but they aren't particularly interested in capitalism itself.

Trotskyists who are mugged by reality who aren't interested in capitalism? Milton Friedman is not interested in capitalism? Clinton is not into profit or Biden or Obama even though all of them had very powerful Big Pharma and Big Banks contributed to their very expensive campaigns and Chelsea Clinton is married to a banker...bankers have nothing to do with capitalism? Where do you get these lame takes on what the neocons and neolibs get their playbook from? Leon Trotsky died with a pickax in his head in Mexico City and had a torrid affair with Frida Kahlo. Kahlo and Rivera are on the Mexican currency. Both Communists. Name me one damn Communist that ever made it on to the USA system of money and banking? None is the answer. Yet somehow the neocons are associated with an eternal revolution proponent like Trotsky who got in huge arguments with Lenin and others....I will tell you something though...the Trotskys were incredibly disciplined in academics. And are an integral part of Mexican life now. Tell me how Obama and the rest became Trotsky followers? Ave Maria Blackjack--are you for real with this shit? Do you believe in your own theories that somehow they don't like capitalism? Pelosi, Biden, etc all have stated inequivocally that they are pro-capitalist and believe in that fully. So do you....you are part of that crowd of believers. I am not.


They tend to embrace critical theory.

Critical theory about what BJ? They successfully defeated the conman Trump. Trump has a big group of loyalists. Now the neocons/neolibs are gonna have to pay attention to what they do a lot more....I happen to think violence is inevitable now. No one has faith in what they do due to their naked selfish shit for years. They brought it on themselves by neglecting what government should be about and also being aggressive warmongers and imperialists.


When the other choices are Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio or Hillary Clinton, they don't have any other choice.

There is always other choices BJ. For all of us human beings. They might not be ideal choices but there is a better choice than a lying conman narcissist from Queens. Working people in the USA need to realize the conman is not caring about working class rights. If they don't get that basic truth? Not much hope for American perceptive intelligence.


No. However, he's the only one that bothered trying to appeal to the working class. That's why people were chanting, "We love you!" at his rallies, when Biden couldn't even fill an auditorium.
I don't agree with this statement. Bernie Sanders appealed to the working class. But he is a Democratic Socialist. A declared one. Since the American public has been BRAINWASHED against any form of socialism at all for years and years? A Conman like Trump is the alternative. They are going to have to deprogram themselves from that. All of Europe, Africa and Asia have socialist political parties. It is basically a mainstream political ideology all over the world. The USA is the one that has an issue with it. Why? They eliminated the socialist group from the popular political scene post WWII and the Cold War. McCarthyism and bullshit. My family had tremendous pressure put on them for their socialism and their pro Puerto Rican Independence stand for years. Only conservative or boot licking shit was allowed in the USA possessions. Violence, political repression and punishment for something that all over the world is mainstream. WHY? It is about Capitalism in Latin America and the USA empire. They can't allow Central America, the Caribbean or any nation in South America to be truly LEFTIST. If the Capitalists had confidence their system was the best and the brightest and the one that works smoothly and brings prosperity to the people? Why feel threatened by socialism in the world? They are threatened by it because it is about losing money and control and the elite wants to squeeze everyone dry that is below them. Got to get rid of the ones who are effective and not damn lying conmen who are mafia types like Trump. Roosevelt was hugely popular because he SOLVED a terrible economic depression in the 1930s with socialist social and economic programs. The Capitalists had to compromise. They are going to have to give in again with this pandemic. Because the option of no schools, no hospitals, mass homeless evictions and no unemplolyment insurance is not going to go well for the Republican party or the Democratic party full of neoliberals who fund perpetual wars and who are being sponsored by the Defense industry, banks and private corporations who know American democracy is for sale and is a sham.


Again, they describe themselves at Trotskyists mugged by reality.
And what does that mean to you Blackjack?


I believe they exist. That doesn't mean I endorse an arbitrary caste system. It means I recognize that they exist, even when you strip away institutions that would enforce them. It means I think they are innate in many respects, and not merely social constructs or political constructs as such.

Have you read the debates in the USA congress during and before and after the American Civil War BJ? The slaveholders truly believed that the hiarchy is there and it is natural and it is right. But some people challenged that thought process. A clip from Harriet the movie. Yeah, for some pigs who belive owning another human being is 'natural'and ínnate....they sound like you do with the bullshit about pecking orders of chickens. The USA has people who have come from deep poverty and become bourgeois and elitists. The same person. That lets me know that the pecking order is arbitrary and malleable and not done in concrete. It is not a fixed and natural system. It is artificial BJ. Whether you want to believe the opposite has more to do with your far Right stuff than any real science. For sure. Harriet:

Why isn't she accepting the chicken pecking order? It is innate isn't it? Why don't people just accept their pecking order? Wasn't the USA about a new society where people were free to choose their own destinies? Or is that bullshit for the Fascists? They are going to wind up where all the damn fascists wind up in history....in an ash heap.








I don't fail to see. I don't agree. Chickens have pecking orders.

You keep believing in that chicken shit theory about humans and their need to be free and to be treated with justice. Whether it is for slavery or capitalist exploitation all over the world. It is going to go down.


Yea, because capitalism made slavery inviable.


And capitalism has an expiration date too BJ. It does.
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By Tainari88
#15153239
Rancid wrote:It's past due.


Rancid, when profit and Mammon are the ones running the value system of an entire nation? Things are not going to go well.

In the end? The conditions are going to dictate if the USA system survives or not. If almost half the country wants a conman to break the back of the neoliberals and neocons? It will.

But what will replace it?

The fight for the control of Stalingrad was a terrible fight in WWII. It cost 1 and a half million people's lives for the Soviet side and about 800,000 for the Nazi Third Reich side. The Soviets burned all their property, food and supplies, and did it deliberately. They fought in a rubbled city with starvation conditions and so on....there were women combat soldiers in that war and women Soviet fighter pilots. The Nazis did not allow women in combat roles. But the Soviets had seen that the Nazis killed women, children, old people. No real distinction of not killing....so it was a battle til the death that battle.

They underestimated the Slavs and thought them 'low on the chicken pecking order' and unworthy of equality and they felt confident that they could defeat the Soviets and their inferior genes. They called them underlings. Arrogant ones the Nazis are...all of them believing in the natural pecking orders. The underlings won that battle.

We are no longer in the era of WWII. It is about nuclear bombs and drone strikes and mass contamination of the Earth and mass extinction events if we fail to cooperate and fail to realize that the pecking order capitalism is leading to small elite wealth that is astronomical in size and the mass group of HAVE NOTS is enormous and growing.

Stop looking for excuses. Start dealing with justice, fairness and caring about everyone's well being.

If you don't give a shit about Latin America and getting a vaccine program done here? The thing aint going away in the USA. You got to start caring about others that are not your little bubble group. Or perish. That is the bottom line. Socialism is coming in some way and massively. Whether it is socialized medicine, socialized wealth or socialized work places. Because the capitalism of shitty pecking orders isn't solving a damn thing.

It is past due indeed Rancid. :D
By Pants-of-dog
#15153245
annatar1914 wrote:@Pants-of-dog ;

It's out there, for anyone smart enough and willing enough to see it. I'll just say that I'm open to not underestimate him and almost just leave it at that... Well, maybe not quite; I spent a great deal of time trying to explain his worldview and his ''ideology''.

Imagine overlapping circles that each represent these elements;

America/American Exceptionalism----------Israel/World Jewry/Zionism---------Capitalism/Objectivism-influenced philosophy--------Himself and his family--------Anti-Communism/Anti-Socialism

All these are fused together pretty much with him and rise and fall together. Now think of a long term strategy that attempts to save all these elements.


Your original claim was that you were surprised that none of us think that Trump is capable of long term political strategy.

I then pointed out that he has never shown any examples of long term political strategy and asked you to provide an example.

You have not done so.

Since there are no examples of Trump successfully concocting and carrying out a long term political strategy, why should anyone assume his current behaviour is an example of long term political strategy?
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By annatar1914
#15153248
@Pants-of-dog ;

Your original claim was that you were surprised that none of us think that Trump is capable of long term political strategy.


No, my original claim is more along the lines of my surprise at the seemingly default assumption that he does not. He is not a politician, remember?

I then pointed out that he has never shown any examples of long term political strategy and asked you to provide an example.


Look back a couple decades, then recall that four years is not a long time, nor even eight.

You have not done so.


Burden of proof is one the ones making the assumptions, not me.

Since there are no examples of Trump successfully concocting and carrying out a long term political strategy, why should anyone assume his current behaviour is an example of long term political strategy?


Are you kidding? Look at what he's done in his business life, which is also political. You're looking at something quite new here I'll admit, but while it is new to American politics it is as old as civilization in fact.

Look at those elements I cited, the things that he has merged together into a worldview (America First, Zionism, Capitalism, Anti-Communism/Socialism, etc...). Are those things increasingly under attack in today's world? To him they are, all of them. He won't stop until he's won or gone for good.
By Pants-of-dog
#15153250
annatar1914 wrote:@Pants-of-dog ;


@annatar1914

No, my original claim is more along the lines of my surprise at the seemingly default assumption that he does not. He is not a politician, remember?


@annatar1914

As long as we agree that he has never shown himself to be capable of long term political strategy, and that this logically implies that his current behaviour is almost certainly not long term political strategy.

this would, of course mean that it would be illogical to claim that President Trump is even more powerful now than when he was President, accomplishing several strategic goals already which favor his longer term planning, and it would be just as illogical to claim that he is letting his opponents help him accomplish his long term strategic goals for him.

Look back a couple decades, then recall that four years is not a long time, nor even eight.


@annatar1914

Yes, and this is why Trump will never beat the Establishment. The establishment is capable of thinking farther than four years in advance while Trump is lucky to think about the next four minutes.

Burden of proof is one the ones making the assumptions, not me.


@annatar1914

Yes, if someone is assuming that Trump is even more powerful now than when he was President, or assumes that he is accomplishing several strategic goals already which favor his longer term planning, or assuming that he is letting his opponents help him accomplish his long term strategic goals for him, then the burden of proof would be on that person making those assumptions.

Are you kidding? Look at what he's done in his business life, which is also political. You're looking at something quite new here I'll admit, but while it is new to American politics it is as old as civilization in fact.


I have looked at what he has done.

This is how I know there are no examples of him doing anything that could be described as long term political strategy.

You were also unable to provide an example.

Look at those elements I cited, the things that he has merged together into a worldview (America First, Zionism, Capitalism, Anti-Communism/Socialism, etc...). Are those things increasingly under attack in today's world? To him they are, all of them. He won't stop until he's won or gone for good.


Yes, his ability to smear contradictory slogans together and trick right wingers into voting for him is impressive, but this is due to Republicans supporting post factual paradigms for the last few decades and Trump is just conning them.
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By Godstud
#15153266
Sorry @colliric, but this was a pic that Kelly Anne took off her phone. The pic was from several months ago. The daughter even asserted this. Now you're defending immoral Trump cultists, as well as Trump. :knife:

The daughter wants her to go to jail! :up: :up:
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By colliric
#15153274
Saeko wrote:No, the daughter was 16 in the nude photo. The photo was a photo of a photo on her daughter's phone. That means that she intentionally acquired, possessed, and distributed child pornography. Of her own daughter.


If her account was hacked, then it wasn't her that "distributed child porn". She is a public figure so foreign agents or Democrat sympathisers easily could have hacked the account, found photos of the daughter and posted it online as "Kelly Anne".

A mother possessing such embarrassing photos could be because she was showing them to her dad and/or trying to discipline her for taking the nude photos herself(maybe she was sexting).

The fact is parents have often possessed embarrassing photos for a variety of rather valid reasons since photos were first invented.
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By Godstud
#15153281
Parents having embarrassing photos is one thing. Parents having nude photos is quite another. You trying to conflate the two is dishonest, but typical of those defending Trump and anyone else who supported him.

No parent should have a nude picture of their 16 year old daughter on their phone, and the "hacking claim", sounds like complete bullshit, and an excuse for making a horribly hurtful mistake.

The daughter wants her mother to go to jail. That's how much she trusts this "hacking" excuse.
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By Drlee
#15153283
A nude picture is not necessarily pornography no matter what the age of the person in the picture. I would not test it but the law has been tested time and again in the US. You could consider the work of Sally Mann and David Hamilton.
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By colliric
#15153291
Godstud wrote:Parents having embarrassing photos is one thing. Parents having nude photos is quite another. You trying to conflate the two is dishonest, but typical of those defending Trump and anyone else who supported him.

No parent should have a nude picture of their 16 year old daughter on their phone.


I'm not defending her, I'm waiting to see what happens.

Sounds like either Kelly Anne or her daughter(who seems to be extremely rebellious) is a revenge loving Gaslighter with both calling the other one crazy and in need of a mental institution. I'm waiting to see which one is. Maybe they both are.

The daughter wants her mother to go to jail. That's how much she trusts this "hacking" excuse.


Kelly Anne apparently threatened her daughter to go to a mental institution, at least according to what the daughter said. One wants to send her mother to Jail the other wants her daughter sent to the Psychiatric Ward. Sounds like a battle of the Gaslighters to me if I ever saw one.

sounds like complete bullshit


I got my eBay account hacked last year by a Russian girl who used it to buy cheap make-up. She's Kelly-Anne Conway so way more likely to be targeted by hackers than me.
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By Saeko
#15153292
colliric wrote:If her account was hacked, then it wasn't her that "distributed child porn".


Actually, even in that case, she is guilty of both distribution and possession since she copied the illicit materials.

She is a public figure so foreign agents or Democrat sympathisers easily could have hacked the account, found photos of the daughter and posted it online as "Kelly Anne".


"Hackers hacked my phone and stole my cp of my daughter" isn't a valid excuse.

A mother possessing such embarrassing photos could be because she was showing them to her dad and/or trying to discipline her for taking the nude photos herself(maybe she was sexting).


Could be. But guess what? It's still illegal.

The fact is parents have often possessed embarrassing photos for a variety of rather valid reasons since photos were first invented.


Embarrassing baby pictures? Sure. Your 16 yo's nudes? You're doing time.
#15153294
Just a friendly reminder that Donald Trump chose to give up in the face of the most blatant election fraud ever committed. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Alexandria Ocasio-Orteiz just snatched a clear historical landslide from Trump's weak, tiny fingers and declared victory in the face of all truth, invalidating the very premise of our republic and ignoring the hundreds of millions of people who voted for Trump. Which, I would like to remind you, is the greatest number of votes ever cast for an incumbent in the history of time, so there's absolutely no way he could have lost.

For reasons known only to him, Donald Trump (the greatest president ever and the strongest patriot to ever live) chose to stop fighting for truth, justice, and the continued restoration of America to its former glory. Only one question remains: is he a traitor or a bitch?

@Doug64 What are your thoughts Re: Trump being a traitor or a bitch?
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By annatar1914
#15153299
Pants-of-dog wrote:@annatar1914



@annatar1914

As long as we agree that he has never shown himself to be capable of long term political strategy, and that this logically implies that his current behaviour is almost certainly not long term political strategy.

this would, of course mean that it would be illogical to claim that President Trump is even more powerful now than when he was President, accomplishing several strategic goals already which favor his longer term planning, and it would be just as illogical to claim that he is letting his opponents help him accomplish his long term strategic goals for him.



@annatar1914

Yes, and this is why Trump will never beat the Establishment. The establishment is capable of thinking farther than four years in advance while Trump is lucky to think about the next four minutes.



@annatar1914

Yes, if someone is assuming that Trump is even more powerful now than when he was President, or assumes that he is accomplishing several strategic goals already which favor his longer term planning, or assuming that he is letting his opponents help him accomplish his long term strategic goals for him, then the burden of proof would be on that person making those assumptions.



I have looked at what he has done.

This is how I know there are no examples of him doing anything that could be described as long term political strategy.

You were also unable to provide an example.



Yes, his ability to smear contradictory slogans together and trick right wingers into voting for him is impressive, but this is due to Republicans supporting post factual paradigms for the last few decades and Trump is just conning them.


@Pants-of-dog ,

What is clear at least to me is that under no circumstances would you ever concede the idea of President Trump having a distinct ideology and strategy, for better or for worse, no matter what I said or provided by way of evidence.

So you'll have to learn by experience, and that'll obviously take longer than the five years that we've seen of him in political life. When you do find out, well, it will be a different America for sure, either way.

One beginning clue however is how this stupid second impeachment will turn out. It is a clumsy attempt to deny President Trump the opportunity to run for a second term in 2024, and may well provide him with plenty of opportunity instead to do some damage to his political enemies.

Another indication of a long term strategy is President Trump's continued control over the GOP, coupled with threats to form a third party as yet another form of leverage. A short term conman doesn't operate in this way for short term benefits. So, he's not a short term conman, despite the propaganda that the propagandists are starting to believe themselves. No, what our enemy is is something different than that.
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