The Death of the British Labour Party - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15136131
wat0n wrote:You sound like those who believe Trump won in 2016 only because of the propaganda campaign on social media.

The truth is, there have also been lobbyists pushing a message against Israel just as relentlessly, as is their right to. And yet... For now, at least, the American public seems to have made its choice. American support for Israel goes deeper than simply being a matter of propaganda.


Correct, polls and surveys usually show the chief reason is based on affinity values. Even with a split result, that's the top of the list.
#15136134
skinster wrote:Labour members in Keir Starmer’s own constituency...

@JohnRawls

How embarrassing is that for your 4 points behind the fat fuck in the polls dear leader. Much, methinks.


:lol:
#15136166
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/TheProleStar/status/1326533853880545285


Labour is already 2 points ahead on average and 5 points ahead in best cases. From -20 defecit after Corbyn :D
#15136167
ingliz wrote:@JohnRawls

How embarrassing is that for your 4 points behind the fat fuck in the polls dear leader. Much, methinks.


:lol:


2% lead on average. You and Skinster are both salty because Corbyn was -20 points behind.

As for the socialist hate on Starmer: if that is the only price he will need to pay for becoming the leader of Britain in this uncertain times then so shall it be.

You both need this as much as the Trump fans. Just instead of a MAGA hat, there needs to be a Corbyn hat of some sort. :lol:
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#15158440
Regardless of their performance, it has been an incredibly unlucky time to be an opposition in the UK, and an incredibly lucky time to be in government. Despite having the greatest bafoon as PM in living memory, who has led the most breathtakingly incompetent response to a pandemic imaginable, the British public are in no mood to punish him or his inept government. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I suspect its a combination of a 'rally the flag' sentiment during a major global crisis, as well as continued residual fallout from the massive hit job by Murdoch on Corbyn's labour during the 2019 election.

That said, the polls are relatively tight, and its a long way until the next election. Starmer may yet stumble over the line.
#15158457
JohnRawls wrote:becoming the leader of Britain

Doubtful.

A crowdfunder was launched this week to help ‘buy a spine’ for Sir Keir Starmer.

"In these difficult times it is more important than ever to stand up to the Tories and hold them to account. Poor Keir is leader of the opposition and seems unable to do so. We all take our spines for granted – spare a thought for those who seem to be without – and give whatever you can spare for this worthy cause."

Donate here.
#15158497
Even if Keir Starmer does win an election (which I seriously doubt will happen), what would be the point? What does he stand for? :?:

So far, their big policy initiative has been a "British recovery bond", which I'm sure the Tories will happily implement just like they are happy to implement many dull, technocratic policies proposed by New Labour types. I also see that Starmer is now running to the right of the Tories on corporation tax, in direct opposition to the majority of the country, while trying to wrap himself in the flag and prattle on about "patriotism".
#15158500
GandalfTheGrey wrote:Regardless of their performance, it has been an incredibly unlucky time to be an opposition in the UK, and an incredibly lucky time to be in government. Despite having the greatest bafoon as PM in living memory, who has led the most breathtakingly incompetent response to a pandemic imaginable, the British public are in no mood to punish him or his inept government. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I suspect its a combination of a 'rally the flag' sentiment during a major global crisis, as well as continued residual fallout from the massive hit job by Murdoch on Corbyn's labour during the 2019 election.

That said, the polls are relatively tight, and its a long way until the next election. Starmer may yet stumble over the line.


Boris has Brexit. So perhaps the polls are a reflection of that. But don't forget that he was polling amazingly high pre-Cummingsgate and then things went south for him on an industrial scale thereafter so actually on that point in particular, the polls shouldn't be so tight.

Nonetheless I agree, this pandemic has been fortunate for him. Not the decisions he has made or that it hasn't made him look like a total bafoon, but it has cloaked the clusterfuck that is Brexit. All key industry that would have suffered badly from Brexit has been hit tenfold by Covid and high unemployment that was expected from Brexit again can be masked from Covid. Basically we will never see the impact of Brexit due to Covid and that is where the blame will fall. That is fortunate because that would have swug the polls to Labour.

Having said all that, I don't see BoJo lasting this full term. He looks so tired, must know he is a diplomatic nightmare and perhaps just wants to settle down with his new child. Starmer vs Sunak would be nice. Sunak knows how to answer a question. Although I think Starmer would be a great leader in any case. His issue on PoFo is that he is a Blairite, but he would move the UK away from populist politics and bring order to Westminster again. But four years is a long time and perhaps we can discuss what direction Labour should head after the next election in any case.
#15158525
ingliz wrote:Doubtful.

A crowdfunder was launched this week to help ‘buy a spine’ for Sir Keir Starmer.

"In these difficult times it is more important than ever to stand up to the Tories and hold them to account. Poor Keir is leader of the opposition and seems unable to do so. We all take our spines for granted – spare a thought for those who seem to be without – and give whatever you can spare for this worthy cause."

Donate here.


Brexit is not Starmers doing. The problem for Britain right now is that the businesses are already under pressure so increasing taxes on them will make the situation worse.
#15158527
JohnRawls wrote: The problem for Britain right now is that the businesses are already under pressure so increasing taxes on them will make the situation worse.

Corporation tax is paid on profits. By definition, the only companies paying it will be the ones who are not struggling.
#15158528
Heisenberg wrote:Corporation tax is paid on profits. By definition, the only companies paying it will be the ones who are not struggling.


So your definition of not struggling is having a profit, ok. While there might be some logic if we lived in a very simplified world but then there is the problem of financial markets and the modern economic systems being more complicated then that. A simple example is that if you tax all the profits away then your country is bound for stagnation and decline eventually. Although this is a very simplified example.
#15158530
JohnRawls wrote:So your definition of not struggling is having a profit, ok.

It seems like a reasonable assumption, given that a very large number of companies have posted record profits since the pandemic started.

JohnRawls wrote:While there might be some logic if we lived in a very simplified world but then there is the problem of financial markets and the modern economic systems being more complicated then that.

What specific "complications" are you referring to here?

JohnRawls wrote:A simple example is that if you tax all the profits away then your country is bound for stagnation and decline eventually.

Given that Sunak is supposed to be raising corporation tax from 19% to 25%, this seems like an irrelevant concern.
#15158531
Heisenberg wrote:Corporation tax is paid on profits. By definition, the only companies paying it will be the ones who are not struggling.


I would also like to add that UK businesses struggling really depends on the business. Online is doing fantastically, supermarkets, logistics etc etc etc. Badly? Non essential retail, restaurants and aerospace. So we know the businesses to tax. And we know the businesses to give relief. That should be reflected in the budget and by default party pledges.
#15158534
Heisenberg wrote:It seems like a reasonable assumption, given that a very large number of companies have posted record profits since the pandemic started.


What specific "complications" are you referring to here?


Given that Sunak is supposed to be raising corporation tax from 19% to 25%, this seems like an irrelevant concern.


Okay, the basic idea behind doing business is to get profit. So there are several problems with taxing profit too much:

1) Probably the most important one is that it destroys the whole moral idea of business. You might not like excessive profit as it created inequality but it is perhaps the main reason people do business in the first place.

2) If you start to tax profit then it incentivizes certain behaviours depending on how the tax system is set up. For example in Estonia it is possible to pay 0 corporate tax if you re-invest everything in to your own business for development. I am not sure if the same arrangement is in the UK but I doubt it. Then this probably means that several things will happen like tax evasions that becomes a must or people will try to make sure to move the excess profit overseas to use it their instead of cashouts for profit. Same goes for expansion, there are certain limits but this will incetivise expansion of business overseas to hide the profits of sorts.

3) Financial markets like fat profit margins and reducing those profit margins by taxes will make the companie values less compared to what they could be meaning that those companies will get less investment from the financial market etc.

4) Higher taxes on profits will lead to less people want to establish companies in the Uk and just start them somewhere else either in reality or on paper. But this would usually mean that they will pay a large chunk of taxes somewhere else also if not all of them.

Now put the problems regarding Brexit on top of that and then it gets even worse. I suppose there are more complications but I am not exactly an economist to point them properly out. The basic ones I can see though.
#15158535
JohnRawls wrote:Okay, the basic idea behind doing business is to get profit. So there are several problems with taxing profit too much:

How is a 25% corporate tax rate "too much"? It is barely above the global average.

Now, bear in mind that (a) the Tories are already proposing to raise it from 19% to 25% and (b) that business leaders in the UK have basically shrugged their shoulders at this, and you might start to see why it's a ridiculous battle for Keir Starmer to pick as leader of the Labour Party. Lol.
#15158538
Cooperation tax is low in the UK @JohnRawls. We can afford to increase it. The issue here isn't even Brexit. The issue is our covid response. Or more specifically lockdown. This isn't unique to the UK. It is a global phenomenom. All major economies are borrowing more and have negative growth... except for China who said fuck it. The industries that are struggling are the ones who have had their business halted. The ones with record profits are the businesses that have stayed open. Trying to wedge Brexit into this is crazy. Not only did a deal get reached, what negative impact there is (and sure there is something I guess) isn't even noticeable compared to what Lockdown has done. We need to pay off our borrowing and to be frank taxing businesses that have done well is the only way to start.
#15158541
Heisenberg wrote:How is a 25% corporate tax rate "too much"? It is barely above the global average.

Now, bear in mind that (a) the Tories are already proposing to raise it from 19% to 25% and (b) that business leaders in the UK have basically shrugged their shoulders at this, and you might start to see why it's a ridiculous battle for Keir Starmer to pick as leader of the Labour Party. Lol.


Estonia taxes profits 20% for people and companies for example. Too much is arguable. But this is not the only point that I brought up. If you consider it to be okay then so be it. Also an argument that Tories want to do it also doesn't mean that it is right or wrong.
#15158564
wat0n wrote:It's funny how easily swapping "Zionist" with "Jew" exposes what your actual beliefs are here.
wat0n wrote:No, those are conspiracy theories. I don't find it surprising though, it's a typical trait of antisemites ever since The Protocols was published.

This is not a conspiracy theory . Member of the Knesset , Shulamit Aloni , explained what you are doing , with your tactic of stigmatizing those such as @skinster , and Jeremy Corbyn as being anti-Semitic . It's a trick you Zionist apologists use , and we are seeing thorough it .

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