French police guard teacher who condemned rise of radical Islam - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15157253
GandalfTheGrey wrote:"what measures he is taking" hasn't even been decided yet - as the bill is being debated as we speak.


So, you do not have anything to criticise Macron for this bill, but you insist that something might be added to it later. :roll:

I already linked an article where residents of Trappes voice their objection to his accusations. Led by the mayor himself. Its possible there is a grain of truth in what he says - but either way his claims are sweeping and overgeneralised, with no qualifications like saying "not all muslim establishments are like this" etc (at least not in the excerpt that was quoted). Inherently that comes across as typecasting a particular demographic, prejudicial and more than a little bit hysterical. Hence inflaming the situation - unnecessarily.


Your Turkish article has already been shown to be fake news with inflammatory propaganda. The reality is that Trappes is a hot bed of Islamic extremism.

Lemair is a French teacher that commented on his own neighbourhood after another French teacher was beheaded by Muslim extremists.

wiki wrote:The suburb of Trappes is known for gang violence and poverty.[4] It also has Islamists among its large Muslim population, with 50 local people suspected of having left France to fight for the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq, according to security sources quoted by AFP news agency.[4] Trappes is a center of Islamic fundamentalism with hardline Atharis following Salafism and Wahhabism prominent. According to the French government, 67 people from Trappes have joined the Islamic State and others have carried out attacks inside France.

In July 2013, Trappes police station was attacked by a mob of French Muslims in response to the arrest of a man who had assaulted a police officer during an identity check on his entirely veiled wife (face covering is illegal in France).[5][6][7] A man on the terrorism watch list of the French police, killed his mother and sister with a knife in Trappes on August 23, 2018. Amaq News Agency claimed responsibility on behalf of the Islamic State group. French interior minister Gérard Collomb however stated he was a man with mental issues rather than someone inspired by the organisation.[8]


Your efforts to blame the victims of terrorism merely confirms what Lemair said:

In November, in a letter to the news magazine L’Obs after Samuel Paty, a history and geography teacher, was beheaded by an Islamist, he wrote: “Schools and freedom are under attack,” adding that Paty’s murderer was the “arm of a project implemented by thousands of ideologues who, like the Nazis before them, nourish a feeling of victimisation to incite hatred.
#15157335
noemon wrote:Your Turkish article has already been shown to be fake news with inflammatory propaganda. The reality is that Trappes is a hot bed of Islamic extremism.

Lemair is a French teacher that commented on his own neighbourhood after another French teacher was beheaded by Muslim extremists.


If you seriously think the comments have not inflamed tensions nationally and any criticism of them can simply be dismissed as Turkish propaganda, then you must have your head in the sand. Lemaire has been widely criticised throughout France - and not for rightfully standing up against the beheading, but for his blanket slurs on the entire muslim community of Trappes. They were insensitive and inflammatory - even if they had some element of truth.

A pretty good summary of whats wrong with French debate on Islamic extremism:
https://www.france24.com/en/france/2020 ... the-debate

Includes some pertinent statistics, such as the belief amongst close to half of all French muslims that the rest of society hold a low regard for them - despite them overwhelmingly expressing a pride and love for their country. Comments like Lemaire's only entrench these negative attitudes.
#15157348
A few years ago, I read an article which actually showed the trend in France has been second and third generation Muslims becoming more conscious of their Islam and less willing to integrate to French norms than their parents who migrated over. With the recent beheading incident and the shooting of the Orthodox priest, and now this guy needing police protection for saying the things that every normal French person should be saying.

I particularly enjoy that this guy identifies as a left winger -- good for him. The cardinal sin of the contemporary left is failing to criticize Muslims and other groups for what they've spent decades criticizing the right for. The last decade has been interesting because the intelligent, principled left wing has been able to distinguish itself from the mindless mob through stories like these.
#15157364
Verv wrote:A few years ago, I read an article which actually showed the trend in France has been second and third generation Muslims becoming more conscious of their Islam and less willing to integrate to French norms than their parents who migrated over.


This is a trend that has affected pretty much all muslim minorities in the west. In general it follows the Saudi driven Islamic revival that has taken root since around the 70s-80s. The wrapping up of western colonialism, and the subsequent cultural backlash against it has been a big part of this revival. Its essentially a case of finding pride in their own cultural identity - as opposed to simply accepting themselves as little western "mini-me's". The adoption of multicultural policies by western countries during the same period has obviously encouraged this.

And it needs to be emphasised that overwhelmingly multiculturalism has been a good thing - like all cultural minorities in the west, muslims have by and large become happier, more productive, and believe it or not - more integrated into society as a result.

But of course with the rise of salafism and a militant fringe within Islam these last few decades, that has clearly had an impact on western communities. I believe that in addition to the ideological factor, there are also a lot of economic factors at play too - like the decline in western manufacturing industries and the loss of the previously commonplace unkilled labour jobs.

Its unfortunate that there seems to have been a conflation within the muslim communities between the positive of having pride in your cultural heritage and the negative of thinking this requires shunning the society that welcomed you, and even despising it. But even so, this should not detract from the clear positive of people having a distinct and proud cultural identity - even if it is different (though not opposed or incompatible) to the dominant culture.


I particularly enjoy that this guy identifies as a left winger -- good for him. The cardinal sin of the contemporary left is failing to criticize Muslims and other groups for what they've spent decades criticizing the right for.


I broadly agree, but I would be quick to point out that this "cardinal sin" is very often an understandable reaction to the most vile and offensive propagation of hate from the right. They are also acutely aware of history - especially modern history. The left know only too well that its not a big stretch at all to go from "this Islamic inspired beheading was bad" to "all muslims are bad". That is, unfortunately, where we are in this current climate. You and I might understand the nuance, but to your average bigot, condemning Islamic extremism is indistinguishable from condemning Islam and muslims - wholesale. The left is acutely aware of this - so too are they acutely aware that genuine and legitimate concern for Islamic extremism is routinely weaponised by certain sinister elements to push a dangerous Islamophobic agenda - that targets good, law abiding muslims.

The left, therefore, tread extremely carefully on this subject.
#15157406
GandalfTheGrey wrote:This is a trend that has affected pretty much all muslim minorities in the west. In general it follows the Saudi driven Islamic revival that has taken root since around the 70s-80s. The wrapping up of western colonialism, and the subsequent cultural backlash against it has been a big part of this revival. Its essentially a case of finding pride in their own cultural identity - as opposed to simply accepting themselves as little western "mini-me's". The adoption of multicultural policies by western countries during the same period has obviously encouraged this.

And it needs to be emphasised that overwhelmingly multiculturalism has been a good thing - like all cultural minorities in the west, muslims have by and large become happier, more productive, and believe it or not - more integrated into society as a result.


Or it is the case that the first generation and, to lesser extents, the second generation, have been very inclined toward integration because they do not take the benefits of a European lifestyle for granted. I believe that the Wahabbi Islamist money is probably a factor, but so is potentially some other things, like:

- Subconscious racism & discrimination, from individuals and institutions, that don't want to mix with Muslims and/or non-white people.
- Jealousy, resentment, and racism from the immigrants themselves -- just as how the natives may have some natural tribalism, so, too, do the immigrants
- Leftist narratives about racism & bigotry that pit them against conservative whites
- Leftist narratives about religion & sexuality that attack Islam or conservative traditional culture and thereby pit Muslims against liberal whites
- General cultural rifts that some individuals will never be able to heal
- Immigrant cultures trying to navigate 'crunched modernity' (the warp speed pace of change that happens when grandpa is pre-modern, dad is half-modern, and you are in peak modernity -- going to school with boys/girls that listen to insane music, smoke weed, and send you pictures of their genitals)

Keep in mind, modernity resulted in terrible growing pains for Westerners as well. It is impossible for it to not negatively impact the immigrants.

I am leaning to the conclusion that multiculturalism is not that great in the long-run. The far right exaggerates its negatives, and the left thinks that it is going to be a total win, but where, exactly, are the gains? Of course, the argument goes that we need workers... but this could just lead to a discussion about increasing local birth rates. Because the other question, about whether or not this really benefits our society to have all of these new memebrs with different backgrounds, is going to be entirely subjective.

Yes, the Indian & Arab restaurants are tasty -- but we have Indian restaurants everywhere in Korea, and we are still 98% Korean. It is also great to be exposed to foreign cultures -- but does this mean that half of the urban population should be foreigners?

We are seeing lots of talk about inequality that persists in Western Europe, and we see that many of these groups do behave as voting blocs for certain political groups.

I do not think it is wrong to suggest that it isn't that great, and that these problems don't actually resolve themselves very easily as people tend to stick to their own kinds of people and marry those with similar values. Of course, many individuals inevitably integrate with one another & have children, but the ones who become Europeans have 0.8 children with, and taht child goes on to have 0.8 children.

People who integrate are integrating only into the shell of a cosmopolitan culture that has to continue replacing itself, while those who never integrate remain fertile, and continue to cut out their own ethnic enclaves.

And who can blame them? It's a lot toa sk someone to give up their religion & cultural identity.

But of course with the rise of salafism and a militant fringe within Islam these last few decades, that has clearly had an impact on western communities. I believe that in addition to the ideological factor, there are also a lot of economic factors at play too - like the decline in western manufacturing industries and the loss of the previously commonplace unkilled labour jobs.


That's another great point -- we talk about bringing in more immigrants but the jobmarket for unskilled labor is small, and that is exactly what those who arrive by boat (or by foot in America) are offering, by and large.

Its unfortunate that there seems to have been a conflation within the muslim communities between the positive of having pride in your cultural heritage and the negative of thinking this requires shunning the society that welcomed you, and even despising it. But even so, this should not detract from the clear positive of people having a distinct and proud cultural identity - even if it is different (though not opposed or incompatible) to the dominant culture.


As a conservative Christian, I can say that embracing LGBTQ and celebrating Pride month is absolutely counter to my Christian identity, and I cannot do it. So, I think I can understand the Muslim mindset to some degree.

These situations galvanzie us -- and even though we may not be on the streets and causing a ruckus (we all are too busy working and have our own virtues to pursue), there is an ever-growing barrier between ourselves and the "regular" society.

Just as how conservative Chrsitians are even starting to build a parallel society, you can bet the Muslims are going to build their walls between regular Parisian life even higher.

This does not mean that you will have to deal with perpetual terrorism or some ticking timebomb as the far right would have you believe, but I would suggest that Europeans get used to there being parts of their cities & towns that are impenetrable. Again, not necessarily some cartoonish "no-go zone" where people want to chase you away, but a part of the city where you are the foreigner, and you don't feel a little odd sitting in the park or reading in the cafe.

Dare I even say it would be this way for New Yorkers in rural Missourri for over a century. It's not a big deal... But, it's another whole new division.



I broadly agree, but I would be quick to point out that this "cardinal sin" is very often an understandable reaction to the most vile and offensive propagation of hate from the right. They are also acutely aware of history - especially modern history. The left know only too well that its not a big stretch at all to go from "this Islamic inspired beheading was bad" to "all muslims are bad". That is, unfortunately, where we are in this current climate. You and I might understand the nuance, but to your average bigot, condemning Islamic extremism is indistinguishable from condemning Islam and muslims - wholesale. The left is acutely aware of this - so too are they acutely aware that genuine and legitimate concern for Islamic extremism is routinely weaponised by certain sinister elements to push a dangerous Islamophobic agenda - that targets good, law abiding muslims.

The left, therefore, tread extremely carefully on this subject.


I agree with you that this is a tricky thing.

But yuo know, one thing that would go a long way is to use the same tender approach to the reactionaries & conservatives that you do to Muslims.

If people talked about Christian conservative perspectives on LGBTQ as if they had full merit and we just "resepctuflly disagree," and if prominent liberals & comedians regularly talked about how much they admire the good qualities of Christianity and agreed to never doggedly satirize Christ or cheer on people who disrespect it, it'd be this great sea change in conservative attitudes.

People want to be treated by you as well as you treat other people.

If you say to the Muslim, "I respect your traditions and culture, and I am glad you are my neighbor; I may not convert but, please, tell me more. I am interested and value learning about this aspect of you..."

The Christian aspects a similar attitude.

Whenever he doesn't get it, he's rightfully indignant, because this is a form of discrimination and double standards. It also seems doubly insulting because he is standing in the city where he buried his grandfather in an old Christian cemetary, and if he cannot be respected as a Christian in a city that has had a Cathedral since the 8th century, where can he be respected?

Please remember, the working class 50-year old white guy who goes to Mass and works for shit compensation from his bus driving gig in Marseilles has nowhere to immigrate to, no 'future' on the horizon. He sends his kids to schools that are hostile to hsi value system while sensitive to that of foreigners who are more conservative than he is. It can really make you angry, then, if you get snickered at by your liberal nephew for carrying a rosary but lectured by him about how you're a racist for voting FN.
#15157407
GandalfTheGrey wrote:In general it follows the Saudi driven Islamic revival that has taken root since around the 70s-80s. The wrapping up of western colonialism, and the subsequent cultural backlash against it has been a big part of this revival. Its essentially a case of finding pride in their own cultural identity - as opposed to simply accepting themselves as little western "mini-me's". The adoption of multicultural policies by western countries during the same period has obviously encouraged this.


Austria and "western colonialism" does not compute.

The murderer in France was an 18-year old Chechen and in Austria the terrorist was a 20-year old Albanian from North Macedonia who had tried to join Turkey's war in Syria.

Both of these Muslim communities follow Turkish Islam & Imperialism, not Salafist Islam.

The 2 countries that were attacked(France, Austria) have been the 2 most vocal European critics of Erdogan for his military attacks on Syria, Libya & Armenia as well as his military threats against Cyprus, Greece and Europe as a whole.

In response to this recent terrorism, both France and Austria banned Turkish organisations like the Grey Wolves.

This past year, Erdogan has targeted France, Austria and Europe several times.

Erdogan orders murder of Austrian politician, Turkish secret service assassin confesses. November 2nd 2020.

Austria takes steps against the Grey Wolves after several terrorist attacks by the far-right group this summer in Vienna: What is behind the Grey Wolves attacks in Vienna?. Antifa article.

Instead of condolences offers insults to French President Macron, calling him a "mental patient and an enemy of Islam". A couple of days later, he called for a boycott of French products, and absurdly claimed that French Muslims are “subjected to a lynch campaign similar to that against Jews in Europe before World War II.”

Erdogan’s criticism of Macron’s response has been taken up by populist leaders in Pakistan and Malaysia, and by protesters in the Middle East and across the Muslim world.

Ordered the sinking of a Greek ship this summer but his generals refused him, Die Welt reported this September.

Poses in front of Turkish map that includes hundreds of Greek islands with caption 'Blue Homeland'.

Sends drones to play the Turkish national anthem and to dump red paint in Greek islands.

Called for war against Greece & France during a warmongering speech back in August:

“When it come times to fight, we will not hesitate to make sacrifices.”

“The question is: when they[Greece & France] stand against us in the Mediterranean, are they ready to make the same sacrifices?” “To our enemies, we say: Bring it on!”

Erdogan has picked a war with Europe and is proactively insulting & threatening France, Austria, Greece, Cyprus, the EU, calling Muslim crowds to his jihad.

Erdogan fuels hate leading to French terror attacks-The Telegraph

Belgian liberal MEP Hilde Vautmans, who is shadow rapporteur for Turkey on the European Parliament’s foreign affairs committee, said: "President Erdoğan's rhetoric towards Emmanuel Macron this week was deeply inappropriate. Words have consequences."
#15157483
What exactly is your point noemon, that the wave of Islamist attacks in Europe (or at least in France and Austria) are personally being directed by Erdogan?

Seems a a bit far fetched to me.

Its also got little to do with the actual point I was making. We were discussing the accusations about a certain French suburb being overtaken by Islamists over a period of many years, if not decades. This then kind of became a broader discussion about the more 'Islamic-minded' self identity of 2nd and 3rd generation muslim immigrants in France (and Europe), and the tendency to make themselves less integrated into western society. At least thats the part of the conversation I was having with Verv that you quoted.

And I think its pretty safe to say Erdogan has not spend the last several decades masterminding that phenomenom.
#15157484
Erdogan is the one organising ISIS fighters in Syria, Libya and Armenia. He is instigating terrorism by making polemic speeches, riling up Muslim crowds, targeting the very specific countries that were targeted by affiliated terrorists, converting the Agia Sophia, attacking all his neighbours. There are no red flags missing.
#15157489
noemon wrote:Erdogan is the one organising ISIS fighters in Syria, Libya and Armenia. He is instigating terrorism by making polemic speeches, riling up Muslim crowds, targeting the very specific countries that were targeted by affiliated terrorists, converting the Agia Sophia, attacking all his neighbours. There are no red flags missing.


Perhaps. But its kind of a different topic.

Erdogan did not start "riling up muslim crowds" in a vacuum. The problem of Islamic extremism as a trans-national threat has been brewing for decades, and had almost nothing to do with him or Turkey. Most of the same provocations you describe have been performed by Saudi-affiliated agents long before Erdogan came on the scene. The main difference being they were supported at the time by the US and most of the west. And yes, that includes helping to facilitate the rise of ISIS.

Erdogan is just a symptom of a far bigger issue - and frankly a pretty poor imitation of the shit-stirrers who came before him.
#15159870
A MATTER OF CULTURE

noemon wrote:The problem is when Muslim leaders threaten Europeans and we get beheadings


Well, it didn't happen that way.

What happened was that a French teacher was beheaded by a Muslim fanatic who was illegally in France. And, there is only one Muslim country that wants very much to be a part of the EU. (Because it exports a great deal there.)

But the head of Turkey is such a mind-boggling person that he says all the wrong things at precisely the wrong time. A tiny, tiny part of Turkey is on the European continent. That tiny part happens to contain its principle city - Istanbul. Which makes the city a favorite tourism attraction of Europeans.

The only real problem with Turkey's admission to the EU is its present leader. Erdogan is an adept politician but hapless and says the wrong-things to Europe at the wrong-time. No serious effort therefore has been made to invite Turkey to join the EU.

Assimilating the once-communist Eastern Countries of Europe was difficult work. They wanted to quit Communism because their mostly government owned-and-run economies simply did not work. And the EU, with some difficulty, has proven that its consolidated economies can indeed function properly. In economics, the whole is often much better than the sum of its parts. Turkey would be a good addition to the EU, even though its Manufacturing Sector needs considerable improvement.

However, I doubt seriously that whilst Erdogan is in power that there will be any discussions whatsoever about admitting Turkey ...
#15159875
Saudi Arabia is a non-entity and Iran does not command the Aghia Sophia, Constantinople and a privileged position with the west and Europe. Iran is also Shia while the vast majority of the Muslim world is Sunni.

Erdogan is certainly a contender for the 'Islamist of the Year' Award.
#15159878
noemon wrote:Saudi Arabia is a non-entity and Iran does not command the Aghia Sophia, Constantinople and a privileged position with the west and Europe. Iran is also Shia while the vast majority of the Muslim world is Sunni.


The Sunni and Shia issue is exactly why Erdogan's ambitions will only make him an enemy of Iran. Not to mention they actually share a border.

And why do you think Saudi Arabia (or in particular, Prince Mohammad bin Salman) is a non-entity? If I read the news correctly, they are the most responsible for the genocide happening in Yemen. This tells us a lot on their tolerance and ruthlessness on possible threats near their borders.

Even if they might be inferior to Erdogan, do you really think they will let Erdogan outdo them without a fight?

Rest assured that, if Erdogan is trying to rape your country, he will be royally penetrated in the ass. The geography of his country means his arrogance is going to cost him fucking big. I am actually surprised that he didn't get sodomized when his men struck a Russian plane down.
#15159909
Patrickov wrote:The Sunni and Shia issue is exactly why Erdogan's ambitions will only make him an enemy of Iran. Not to mention they actually share a border.

And why do you think Saudi Arabia (or in particular, Prince Mohammad bin Salman) is a non-entity? If I read the news correctly, they are the most responsible for the genocide happening in Yemen. This tells us a lot on their tolerance and ruthlessness on possible threats near their borders.

Even if they might be inferior to Erdogan, do you really think they will let Erdogan outdo them without a fight?

Rest assured that, if Erdogan is trying to rape your country, he will be royally penetrated in the ass. The geography of his country means his arrogance is going to cost him fucking big. I am actually surprised that he didn't get sodomized when his men struck a Russian plane down.


Saudi Arabia is a Potemkin village in country size. I have been to Saudi about 10 times during my lifetime, once the oil is no longer relevant which already happened yesterday, the country will collapse which is now just a matter of time & providence.

Saudi can still be useful however but that does not mean that you can rely on Saudi to undermine Turkey or the King of Saudi to undermine Erdogan, Lawrence of Arabia style. It's not happening because the Muslims see them as inferior and not without reason.

Iran is a difference case. And like your example with the Russian plane the situation is multi-layered, while Turkey, Iran and Russia share issues, borders and a plethora of other problems they find a tenuous balance among them by channeling all their outrage against "the west". So we see a variety of contradictions. Turkey shooting down a Russian plane and then buying Russian weapon systems, Russia took it on the chin for the plane after apologies as well so that she can claim she removed Turkey from NATO. They also found another balance at the expense of Armenia. Iran and Turkey also have multiple issues but Iran is using Turkey to bypass the sanctions and so on and forth. So we have a coalition of convenience on one side, while on the west we have a chorus of countries each with a different objective, like Germany supporting Russia & Turkey, along with Hungary. France is standing by Greece, Cyprus & Egypt, the UK stands aloof and the US numb. And that is why Greece & Egypt have now established their own alliance and are pulling more Muslim countries within the sphere.

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