[noemon]

Further violence breaks out in Northern Ireland despite appeals for calm

Incidents reported on Monday in Carrickfergus and in Derry where a car was been set alight

Violence has broken out once more on the streets of Northern Ireland, despite appeals for calm.

A car was set alight in Sperrin Park in the Waterside area of Derry, while there were also reports of violent incidents in Carrickfergus, near Belfast. Both locations have been the scene of violence and unrest among the loyalist community in recent days.

Earlier, the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) had appealed to community leaders to put a stop to the disorder that has taken place throughout much of the last week.

On Sunday night, five police officers sustained injuries after being pelted with petrol bombs and masonry in Belfast, bringing the total number of police injured in incidents in Derry and Belfast over the Easter weekend to 32.

Throughout last week, tensions in predominantly unionist communities spilled over into violent incidents, with petrol bombs being thrown at PSNI officers and bins and pallets set on fire.

Speaking on Monday, PSNI Ch Supt Davy Beck said police stood ready for another night of unrest, but urged community leaders to put a stop to it.

He said: “Right now, as we speak, my officers are in those areas, they’re working hard to provide those police services. Be that in respect of crime, be that in terms of road safety, be that in terms of others concerns in the community.

“We’re there and we’re doing that. I will have additional resources available to me and we will respond to whatever may develop.

“But there’s an opportunity to stop this. This doesn’t have to be a third night of trouble in the Cloughfern and Newtownabbey/Carrickfergus area. I would encourage people with influence in those communities to put a stop to this.”

Ch Supt Davy said the attacks were “clearly orchestrated”. He added: “I believe that there’s a small group of disaffected criminal elements that are clearly involved in influencing young people, and I would appeal to young people in those areas not to allow this to happen.

“I think it’s also fair to say that there’s probably no coincidence to this. We have been successful in that area in respect on some of these criminal gangs. So I think that this perhaps has been a reaction from some of those people who are involved in criminality.”

Asked if he thought the South Antrim UDA were behind the attacks, he replied: “As I said, I believe that this is a group of disaffected criminal gangs and we will investigate that.”

On Monday night, a masked loyalist band marched through the streets of Portadown, playing drums and flutes and waving flags. Sinn Féin MLA John O’Dowd condemned the march, which he said was intended to intimidate the local community.

A similar march took place in Markethill on Monday. It raises questions as to whether the Parades Commission was notified of these events, as is required by law.

Children as young as 12 have been involved in some of the incidents that have taken place over the weekend, police said.

Tensions have soared within the loyalist community in recent months over post-Brexit trading arrangements, which it is claimed have created barriers between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Anger ramped up further last week following a controversial decision not to prosecute 24 Sinn Féin politicians for attending a large-scale republican funeral during Covid-19 restrictions.

All the main unionist parties have demanded the resignation of PSNI chief constable Simon Byrne, claiming he has lost the confidence of their community.

Meanwhile, in County Antrim, a recent series of drug seizures against the South East Antrim UDA – a renegade faction of the main grouping – have caused particular ill-feeling towards police. The faction is believed to have been behind the disturbances in Newtownabbey on Saturday.

[Heisenberg]

The loyalists really are a charming bunch. It's a privilege to have them as fellow citizens.

That said, I wouldn't call this pro-British violence. Their whole schtick seems to be that the British have betrayed them with the new Brexit deal - despite the fact they were the main opposition to Theresa May's backstop, under which Northern Ireland would have been treated the same as the rest of the UK.

There is also apparently an element of loyalist paramilitaries egging on the violence in retaliation for a series of recent raids and arrests.

As always with these people, we're seeing spoiled children throwing a giant (and potentially deadly) tantrum, because their ridiculous demands for special treatment can't be met.

[noemon]

The Guardian calls it: 'Pro-Unionist' violence, however as Union can be either Union with Ireland or the existing Union(which is what it actually refers to) with the UK I thought it would be too vague for our international audience unfamiliar with the nuance of British terminology and hence 'pro-British' clarifies the fact that this is not coming from the IRA and the Independence movement. In this aspect I think it is the most accurate term.

[Heisenberg]

Fair enough. In the context of Northern Ireland, "unionist" always refers to the union with Britain, while "nationalist" or "republican" refers to supporters of Irish reunification.

I just think "pro-British" gives an inaccurate impression here, since they aren't supporting anything the British government has done, if that makes sense. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite - they're raging (as they always do) about being betrayed by Britain, and about the fact the PSNI is cracking down on paramilitaries.

[Beren]

"Pro-British violence" gives the false impression of violence by non-British people on behalf of British people or Britain. It's British violence which we call "(pro-)Unionist" actually.

[Potemkin]

The Loyalists are the "spoilt children of empire", to use Churchill's apposite phrase. And like all spoilt children, they always have a sense of grievance, and they are always throwing a tantrum.

[noemon]

Title amended to pro-Loyalist.

I think to me at least pro-Loyalist is more clear than pro-Unionist.

[Heisenberg]

The Loyalists are the "spoilt children of empire", to use Churchill's apposite phrase. And like all spoilt children, they always have a sense of grievance, and they are always throwing a tantrum.

Northern Irish unionists are absolutely bizarre. Literally no one likes them, either in Britain or Ireland, and as far as I can tell, as much as they wrap themselves in the Union Jack, they don't really like Britain or British people any more than they like Ireland or Irish people. Despite that, the idea of an independent Northern Ireland also seems to be a non-starter for them. There's simply no positive identity of any kind, as far as I can make out.

Basically, nothing will ever satisfy these pricks. It seems we're all doomed to be stuck with them until the end of time, one way or another.

I think to me at least pro-Loyalist is more clear than pro-Unionist.

Perfect

[Puffer Fish]

Northern Irish unionists are absolutely bizarre. Literally no one likes them, either in Britain or Ireland, and as far as I can tell, as much as they wrap themselves in the Union Jack, they don't really like Britain or British people any more than they like Ireland or Irish people. Despite that, the idea of an independent Northern Ireland also seems to be a non-starter for them. There's simply no positive identity of any kind, as far as I can make out.

Basically, nothing will ever satisfy these pricks. It seems we're all doomed to be stuck with them until the end of time, one way or another.

I think they're yearning for a more Conservative Britain that no longer exists.

They just don't want the poorer ("Catholic" Irish) masses to take over.

Interestingly, the two sides threaten their "conservatism" in different ways, the Irish economically (and maybe also ultimately more politically with their drive to become part of the European Union) and the UK more socially and in other ways.

The Unionists are trying to grab onto something that increasingly is no longer there. At least under the current arrangement they are in a slightly better position to try to hold onto it.

Were they "betrayed"? Yes, sort of. But the Conservatives governing the UK didn't have much other choice, is the way I see it. The UK Conservative Party had to do this to avoid critics who were complaining that the UK leaving the EU (and by extension the EU trade zone) could bring back old tensions since a hard border wall would have to return to the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. They had to do this as part of the overall strategy to be able to get the UK pullout from the EU.
It is sort of complicated.

[Beren]

The Loyalists are the "spoilt children of empire", to use Churchill's apposite phrase. And like all spoilt children, they always have a sense of grievance, and they are always throwing a tantrum.

They're actually right to throw a tantrum as their country tends to be something like Belgium, neither British nor Irish, although Northern Irish still sounds to be closer to Irish than British. And as cynical as the Brits and their governments usually are, which cynicism is well-known by the Unionists, of course, the question naturally arises as to whether why such a country should still belong to and get subsidised by the UK.

[Potemkin]

They're actually right to throw a tantrum as their country tends to be something like Belgium, neither British nor Irish, although Northern Irish still sounds to be closer to Irish than British. And as cynical as the Brits and their governments usually are, which cynicism is well-known by the Unionists, of course, the question naturally occurs as to whether why such a country should still belong to and get subsidised by the UK.

They are an island of Protestants in a sea of Catholics, @Beren. This is why they have no interest in an independent Ulster - they know they would eventually be overwhelmed by the much more numerous Catholics in the end. No, they want the protection of the British state, while offering nothing to the British except religious sectarian bigotry which the rest of Europe left behind in the 17th century, drug-dealing 'Loyalist' paramilitaries, and an annoying accent. Lol.

[Beren]

They are an island of Protestants in a sea of Catholics, @Beren. This is why they have no interest in an independent Ulster - they know they would eventually be overwhelmed by the much more numerous Catholics in the end. No, they want the protection of the British state, while offering nothing to the British except religious sectarian bigotry which the rest of Europe left behind in the 17th century, drug-dealing 'Loyalist' paramilitaries, and an annoying accent. Lol.

I agree, but they're right to suspect that the UK government is actually getting prepared to abandon them.

[noemon]

They just don't want the poorer ("Catholic" Irish) masses to take over.

The Irish are richer than the Northern Irish, with their GDP per capita being about twice as much. Ireland's GDP per capita is already 2 times bigger than the UK's, in the next 5-10 years it will grow 3-4 times bigger than the UK's.

With Brexit all British companies who trade with the EU are now forced to move to Ireland to carry on trading with the EU, this discrepancy between the rich Irish Catholics and the now poor WASP's will skyrocket in the next 5-10 years.

Were they "betrayed"? Yes, sort of. But the Conservatives governing the UK didn't have much other choice, is the way I see it. The UK Conservative Party had to do this to avoid critics who were complaining that the UK leaving the EU (and by extension the EU trade zone) could bring back old tensions since a hard border wall would have to return to the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. They had to do this as part of the overall strategy to be able to get the UK pullout from the EU.
It is sort of complicated.

That's a simple way of saying that the Brexiteers fucked it up.

I feel you though, WASP's always considered themselves the cool rich guys as opposed to the poor, parochial Irish Catholics. This world is gone now. The tables have turned, the WASP's are the poor, parochial nationalists who are engaging in violence.

[Tainari88]

That is very interesting @noemon .

Are you for or against a United Irish Republic then? And why?

[noemon]

I have no opinion whatsoever Tainari.

The people of Northern Ireland should decide what they want to do and I will support them either way.

My prediction is that it is only a matter of time until the 2 Ireland's reunite.

I think the Irish Catholics are the majority in Northern Ireland, they certainly yearn to be re-united and this Brexit arrangement means the worst of both worlds for Northern Ireland.

Also Ireland's pull is far stronger now that she is the richer party between the 2.

[Potemkin]

I think the Irish Catholics are the majority in Northern Ireland

They're not. Though that may change over the next couple of generations. Can't happen soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.

[noemon]

They're not. Though that may change over the next couple of generations. Can't happen soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Wiki says Irish Catholics were 45% to 48% WASP, the last census was in 2011.

I think these numbers have swapped now, I am filling my census form today actually.

In terms of seats in parliament I think they are split right down the middle.

[Potemkin]

Wiki says Irish Catholics were 45% to 48% WASP, the last census was in 2011.

I think these numbers have swapped now, I am filling my census form today actually.

In terms of seats in parliament I think they are split right down the middle.

Indeed, which means the Ulster Loyalists are doomed. Oh dear, how sad, never mind....

[noemon]

I checked wiki so the DUP has 27 seats to 26 for Sinn Fein and the SDLP 12 to Ulster 10.

So the Catholics do have the majority in seats as 26+12=38, while the Unionists are 27+10=37

While the centrist Liberals hold the balance with another 7 seats.

[wat0n]

I wonder what would Max Weber think about all this