[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

No one is looking for a change in behaviour from UBI.

If I want a change in behaviour, I reward positive behaviours. So parents would get rewards for vaccines and school attendance. And these would be separate and beyond a UBI.

And you are objectively incorrect when you claim that the experiment only showed an increase in perceived mental well being.

From your link:

Results of Finland's basic income experiment: small employment effects, better perceived economic security and mental wellbeing

The basic income recipients were more satisfied with their lives and experienced less mental strain than the control group. They also had a more positive perception of their economic welfare. The interpretation of the employment effects of the experiment is complicated by the introduction of the activation model in 2018.

....

The effects of the basic income experiment on wellbeing were studied through a survey which was done by phone just before the experiment ended.

Survey respondents who received a basic income described their wellbeing more positively than respondents in the control group. They were more satisfied with their lives and experienced less mental strain, depression, sadness and loneliness. They also had a more positive perception of their cognitive abilities, i.e. memory, learning and ability to concentrate.

– In addition, the respondents who received a basic income had a more positive perception of their income and economic wellbeing than the control group. They were more likely to find that their financial situation is manageable and that they are protected financially, says Minna Ylikännö, Head of the Research Team at Kela (the Social Insurance Institution of Finland).

The basic income recipients trusted other people and the institutions in society to a larger extent and were more confident in their own future and their ability to influence things than the control group. This may be due to the basic income being unconditional, which in previous studies has been seen to increase people’s trust in the system.

– On the basis of the study, it is not possible to say with certainty that the better wellbeing of the test group was due specifically to receipt of a basic income. Then again, regional and local basic income experiments in other countries have also shown similar results of improved wellbeing, says Ylikännö.

The response rate for the survey was 23% (31% for the basic income recipients and 20% for the control group), which is typical for surveys.

....

I like how it says that the unconditional aspect of it all may have led to higher trust in societal institutions. This externality would not apply to your idea.

Please note that the title itself mentions mental well being and two other positive impacts.

[wat0n]

The small employment effects are confounded by other reforms that took place concurrently ("...During the first year of the experiment, when the activation model had not yet been introduced, the basic income did not have any employment effects for the basic income recipients at group level. However, the basic income seems to have had slightly different effects on different groups: for instance for families with children who received a basic income, employment rates improved during both years of the experiment. The results for different groups are still uncertain due to the small number of observations and the numerous tests...").

As for an increase of support for institutions, it's also worth checking if a conditional transfer scheme would also achieve the same result. But you're right, they also found a somewhat higher support for the current institutions.

[Pants-of-dog]

The small employment effects are confounded by other reforms that took place concurrently ("...During the first year of the experiment, when the activation model had not yet been introduced, the basic income did not have any employment effects for the basic income recipients at group level. However, the basic income seems to have had slightly different effects on different groups: for instance for families with children who received a basic income, employment rates improved during both years of the experiment. The results for different groups are still uncertain due to the small number of observations and the numerous tests...").

As for an increase of support for institutions, it's also worth checking if a conditional transfer scheme would also achieve the same result. But you're right, they also found a somewhat higher support for the current institutions.

And, of course, it also corroborates my claim about financial stability.

[wat0n]

It's a no brainer that if you give people money, they'll have more financial stability...

[Pants-of-dog]

It's a no brainer that if you give people money, they'll have more financial stability...

Not quite.

I would say that if you give people money unconditionally, they'll have more financial stability.

[wat0n]

Not quite.

I would say that if you give people money unconditionally, they'll have more financial stability.

Yeah, it's not like conditional payments don't improve financial stability

Anyway, conditional payments have been tried in the US before. Here's a long report:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED566403.pdf

And here's a much shorter summary:

http://www.npc.umich.edu/publications/p ... rief22.pdf

They tried doing a new version, but it seems it was fairly costly to manage, partly because the conditions themselves weren't necessarily easy to monitor and the unit costs are high since it was a small scale experiment:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED569136.pdf

So, instead, one could simply use easy to monitor conditions such as those I mentioned above - while the gains may be more limited, the costs would be much lower since it's not all that hard to monitor things like school attendance, vaccination rates and criminal history.

[jimjam]

work sucks! I have been retired for 16 years and the part I enjoy most is going to bed/sleep whenever I want and waking up naturally. Also not having to go to the "work place" and having to suffer fools and assholes. It's called freedom . I saw the scam for what it was and resolved to live a life of zero debt where I did not have to dance to the dollar into the grave.

[Rancid]

dance to the dollar

[jimjam]

American attitude: You've got to be doing something buddy!

European attitude: You can just be.

[QatzelOk]

Some people have good values, some people have values that aren't good for society.

But do work-a-holics have values that "are good for society?" Or just good for hyper-onsumption and supporting rentiers?

Parental-love-deprived rich kids are often "spoiled" with material pleasures (squeaky toys), but they are psychologically ruined by lack of attention, and lack of natural relationships with their communities.

Lacking the security of loving parents and connection with their communities, they grow up to long for control over other people because - they didn't have real parents or a real community. Just lots of expensive *stuff.*




1. The families and offspring of workaholic social climbers should remember that their parents worked really hard INSTEAD OF raising their children properly.

2. Neighbors should remember that these social-climbers spent lots of time working-and-shopping INSTEAD OF having community events to enrich other people's lives.

3. And workaholic societies should worry that their elite is made up of mostly ruined control-seeking psychopaths who are always trying to control other people INSTEAD OF trying to properly govern for the collective.

...

work sucks! ...having to go to the "work place" and having to suffer fools and assholes.

A lot of people "solve" this by "becoming the asshole" they always feared dealing with.

I think we have some examples in this thread.

...

...vaccinating children, sending them to schools, doing everything possible to they pass their courses and making them stay out of crime...

I think this cattle-like perception of people with less money than yourself... is a big part of our workaholic problem. We're just cattle anyways, right. More milk from our udders means "more value."

Right, corporate yes-man?

[Unthinking Majority]

But do work-a-holics have values that "are good for society?" Or just good for hyper-onsumption and supporting rentiers?

Sometimes it's the employers who require overwork for their employees, and if you're not up to it they'll just find someone else who can, OR if you are willing they'll grind you for as long and hard as they can until you crack and quit, then they'll just hire someone else and repeat, because you're expendable. I have witnessed this myself.

Of course, we can choose jobs that don't require this, but it's getting harder. I personally wouldn't work in such an environment, but I have, and I knew people who thrived on it just based on their personality.

[wat0n]

But do work-a-holics have values that "are good for society?" Or just good for hyper-onsumption and supporting rentiers?

Would you say workaholic medics have good values for society? I think it depends on what they are working in.

[Rancid]

One of the guy's that reports to me doesn't know how to turn it off. He's pulling 12 hours days even though I'm telling him not to, and that it's ok if some of the stuff he's working on is delayed. I've been running noise across the business unit to buy him more time. Still man, the guy just doesn't turn it off. He's expecting his first kid in the summer. I'm starting to tell him, "look, you cna't do this shit when your kid is born."

[Wellsy]

One of the guy's that reports to me doesn't know how to turn it off. He's pulling 12 hours days even though I'm telling him not to, and that it's ok if some of the stuff he's working on is delayed. I've been running noise across the business unit to buy him more time. Still man, the guy just doesn't turn it off. He's expecting his first kid in the summer. I'm starting to tell him, "look, you cna't do this shit when your kid is born."

Quick path to burning the fuck out. High intensity has to be for short periods when its crunch time, not all the time. Dude could really mess himself up. Shit the kid might even have him go harder if he the situation has him feel pressured to be a breadwinner or something.

Gotta wonder what underpins it though. Some psychological underpinning that makes busting his ass the ‘easier’ option than not.

[wat0n]

You do it when you are anxious. Don't blame him if he's having a kid.

[QatzelOk]

Would you say workaholic medics have good values for society?

No, I don't.

Medics, more than almost anyone else, should be in a position to take breaks and go out into the community. They should be relaxed, and have lots of free time. They should be able to take a break from medicine to do other jobs that are less stressful, remaining available for medical situations like disease outbreaks or natural disasters or to help other nations that have a sudden need for them. (Cuba is the only country I know of that has made this its policy)

If your doctors are "stressed and working lots of overtime," then your society is in a war of some kind.

The capitalist countries often promote *war conditions* in their own societies (austerity, budget cuts, lack of health care, violent conditions, machine domination, harsh social measures like armed police and prison-mania)... but mainly as a way of concentrating money into the hands of the "dominant" social classes. The classes who make war-like policies are the ones who benefit from them.

So if the USA and other capitalist countries have "war-time" limits on medical staff, and its doctors are working themselves to death, this is mainly in order to concentrate huge piles of cash into a few hands.

► Show Spoiler

The USA's lifespan is receding, so I don't think "stressed, over-worked doctors" is a good choice for a society, even if the rich can get more and better yachts out of this.

[Rancid]

Quick path to burning the fuck out. High intensity has to be for short periods when its crunch time, not all the time. Dude could really mess himself up. Shit the kid might even have him go harder if he the situation has him feel pressured to be a breadwinner or something.

Gotta wonder what underpins it though. Some psychological underpinning that makes busting his ass the ‘easier’ option than not.

Yea, that's what I say. Save this for real crunch time. We get hit with 2-4 weeks of crunch maybe twice a year (which is pretty minimal in this industry). The rest of the year, we need to take it nice and easy.

You do it when you are anxious. Don't blame him if he's having a kid.

Yea, I understand it could be some sort of anxiety. Ultimately, I'm not his dad, he needs to figure his shit out. All I can do is assure him, that he does not need to this, and deflect/defend the team when people are trying to put undue pressure on us.

[Doug64]

My own experience has both not enough work and too much. The not enough was the years I spent living hand-to-mouth as a temp while the interest on my school loans piled up. The too much was immediately after getting my current job (thanks to first being hired as a temp), when a nine-hour day meant I got off early, the norm was ten, twelve was common. Yeah, I was burning out and relieved when I was able to slow down, but by the time they restructured things to the point that my work week dropped back to normal I'd paid off those school loans!

Of course, the "overwork" syndrome isn't just work:

Self Improvement Program
by Judith Viorst

I’ve finished six pillows in Needlepoint,
And I’m reading Jane Austen and Kant,
And I’m up to pork with black beans in Advanced Chinese Cooking.
I don’t have to struggle to find myself
For I already know what I want.
I want to be healthy and wise and extremely good-looking.

I’m learning new glazes in Pottery Class,
And I’m playing new chords in guitar.
And in Yoga I’m starting to master the lotus position.
I don’t have to ponder priorities
For I already know what they are:
To be good-looking, healthy, and wise.
And adored in addition.

I’m improving my serve with a tennis pro,
And I’m practising verb forms in Greek,
And in Primal Scream Therapy all my frustrations are vented.
I don’t have to ask what I’m searching for
Since I already know that I seek
To be good-looking, healthy, and wise.
And adored.
And contented.

I’ve bloomed in Organic Gardening,
And in Dance I have tightened my thighs,
and in Consciousness Raising there’s no one around who can top me.
And I’m working all day and I’m working all night
To be good-looking, healthy, and wise.
And adored.
And contented.
And brave.
And well-read.
And a marvelous hostess,
Fantastic in bed,
And bilingual,
Athletic,
Artistic…
Won’t someone please stop me?

[jimjam]

America essentially promotes a culture with values that, if followed to a T, will with near certainty drive a person to become mentally ill. I saw this at an early age and said, "Fuck this shit." I then pretended for a couple of decades and dropped out.

I read today that $750,000,000,000 is spent in America on anti anxiety/anti depression treatments/meds.

[Wellsy]

Hustle and grind till you die