Biden's Dementia on full display.... (Aus-US-UK Submarine deal) - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15191003
B0ycey wrote:
Although I hate to inform you that Taiwan is offically China.



"The term "Taiwan, China" (中国台湾) is used by mainland Chinese media even though the People's Republic of China (PRC) – which is widely recognized by the international community as the legitimate representative of "China" – does not exercise jurisdiction over areas controlled by the Republic of China (ROC).

The terms are contentious and potentially ambiguous because they relate to the controversial issues of the political status of Taiwan and cross-Strait relations between "Taiwan" and "China". Since 1949, two "Chinas" actually exist, namely the Republic of China (ROC, now usually known as "Taiwan") and the People's Republic of China (PRC, commonly known as "China")."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan,_China

You're spouting Chinese propaganda.
#15191004
@late late
How are we encouraging China to be "a stable part of the world order"? We exclude them from international institutions to the point that they create their own competing bodies. We're helping Australia upgrade it's navy so it can project power far beyond it's shores. We place nukes and troops up and down their coast.

The primary motivation for China to develop an aggressive foreign policy is to punch through the hostile powers that can deny its access to sea lanes and deny its energy imports.

Image
#15191007
@late

I haven't spouted Chinese propaganda. Taiwan (ROC) isn't a nation and hasn't got a seat in the UN because it is China. Although I do hate it when users instantly say you are an apologist or you hate the US when you basically explain AMERICAS OFFICIAL VIEW on Tiawan back to them.

Also to me (this isn't aimed at you Late) this story has two half's. The Submarines, which I support (although they should be French or a project involving France), and AUKUS which I dont support.
#15191014
AFAIK wrote:
[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention] late
How are we encouraging China to be "a stable part of the world order"? We exclude them from international institutions to the point that they create their own competing bodies. We're helping Australia upgrade it's navy so it can project power far beyond it's shores. We place nukes and troops up and down their coast.

The primary motivation for China to develop an aggressive foreign policy is to punch through the hostile powers that can deny its access to sea lanes and deny its energy imports.



Were, exactly, are transport ships denied access???

They are expansionist revanchists... Ask Vietnam, China tried to invade them a while back, but Vietnam was expecting it, and gave them a bloody nose. We now have a standing offer to get a naval base in Vietnam.

But... your question is valid. It's going to be really, really hard to keep them from conquering other countries without that itself causing a war. Historically, it's rare for a rising power to do so peacefully. This goes beyond my current expertise, but I can tell you that the geopolitical skill of most administrations does not bode well.
#15191016
B0ycey wrote:
@late

I haven't spouted Chinese propaganda. Taiwan (ROC) isn't a nation and hasn't got a seat in the UN because it is China.

Although I do hate it when users instantly say you are an apologist or you hate the US when you basically explain AMERICAS OFFICIAL VIEW on Tiawan back to them.

Also to me (this isn't aimed at you Late) this story has two half's.

The Submarines, which I support (although they should be French or a project involving France), and AUKUS which I dont support.



It's a nation. It didn't get a seat at the UN to appease China, but it's been independent for over 70 years. So get real, if you can. ( I make the little joke)

We have a deal with China, we don't officially call them a nation, China doesn't attack.

Do you really think other countries are going to ignore Chinese aggression and ambition? Because if you do, you aren't on this planet...
#15191017
late wrote:It's a nation. It didn't get a seat at the UN to appease China, but it's been independent for over 70 years. So get real, if you can. ( I make the little joke)


Well until recently, The ROC was making a claim for the entire of China. But it is too late now. America officially only recognises one China so it isn't a nation BY YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT!

Do you really think other countries are going to ignore Chinese aggression and ambition? Because if you do, you aren't on this planet...


America already has US bases surrounding China. But it would be interesting for you to provide some information on what aggression and ambition we should be worried about.
#15191018
B0ycey wrote:
Well until recently, The ROC was making a claim for the entire of China. But it is too late now. America officially only recognises one China so it isn't a nation BY YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT!



America already has US bases surrounding China. But it would be interesting for you to provide some information on what aggression and ambition we should be worried about.



You are still babbling Chinese propaganda. Big surprise.

Try reading the news. China tried claiming the entire South China sea, that's why the Freedom of Navigation operation happened. Your ignorance is just appalling.
#15191019
late wrote:You are still babbling Chinese propaganda. Big surprise.

Try reading the news. China tried claiming the entire South China sea, that's why the Freedom of Navigation operation happened. Your ignorance is just appalling.


Well, as I said before I am merely informing you that you are wrong. You don't need to do pointless one liners to show your ignorance. I have knew for a while that strawman is your only form of counter debate.

As for the South China Sea, I don't support what China are doing but it has historic links in which China believe these waters are their territory and they are now reclaiming it back. So it isn't a form of attack on a nation specifically but obviously all nations in the surrounding area seem to want to claim these same areas that they also believe is theirs FYI. And the US want to access these areas due to UN navigation law so they do these silly things like sailing in these waters for no real purpose. So should we be worried? Not really, but we should watch. But wake me up when China becomes the next nation to invade Afghanistan will you. :lol:
#15191021
late wrote:Were, exactly, are transport ships denied access???

Nowhere currently but you can recognise the threat of having a hostile power control access to your ports. China doesn't need to use it's imagination when considering the consequences of encountering a superior naval power.

They are expansionist revanchists... Ask Vietnam, China tried to invade them a while back, but Vietnam was expecting it, and gave them a bloody nose. We now have a standing offer to get a naval base in Vietnam.

They invaded Vietnam to punish it for invading Cambodia, which was their ally. They had no intention of seizing or holding Vietnamese territory. I'm more concerned about a potential intervention in Myanmar since that holds strategic value for them.

late wrote:It's a nation. It didn't get a seat at the UN to appease China, but it's been independent for over 70 years. So get real, if you can.

Lots of nations aren't recognised by the UN. The Republic of Lakotah has a much stronger claim to statehood but is shunned because the USA has huge sway in UN.
#15191023
AFAIK wrote:
Nowhere currently but you can recognise the threat of having a hostile power control access to your ports. China doesn't need to use it's imagination when considering the consequences of encountering a superior naval power.




Make up your mind.

Either they have freedom of navigate for peaceful uses, or they are trying to expand the reach of their military, and their ability to use that power.

To satisfy China, the Phillipines were kicking American forces out. They stopped that in June, because of Chinese encroachment into their territory..

You can argue 12 miles is too close to China for a Freedom of navigation patrol. I'd tend to agree, but it did deliver a message.
#15191038
AFAIK wrote:The primary motivation for China to develop an aggressive foreign policy is to punch through the hostile powers that can deny its access to sea lanes and deny its energy imports.


My concern is this:
Nations which keep setting up authoritarian or even totalitarian regimes for themselves have little or no rights to assert itself against "hostile powers". How can they be respected if they do not respect themselves, not to mention others?
#15191062
@Patrickov
So if China isn't willing to Americanise by itself it should be forced to do so?

@late
I can give you some historical examples if you want. They were called unequal treaties.
When you have a loaded gun pointed at your head hearing the words, "Don't worry I won't pull the trigger this time," isn't very reassuring.
#15191063
AFAIK wrote:So if China isn't willing to Americanise by itself it should be forced to do so?


"Americanise" is a bit narrow.

There are at least four models which I think acceptable: British, American, North European and Central European (France / Germany).

Interestingly, the American is probably the "bottom line" rather than the ideal, although it's debatable which of the other three is the most preferable.
#15191183
Anglos have a strange "logic." For 150 years, they claimed that Hong Kong was a British colony, although it was practically impossible to see that any British colonized Hong Kong. Now they claim that Taiwan is not a Chinese land even though more than 97% of Han Chinese live in Taiwan?
At the same time, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders claim that their territories are not British colonies, although they are led by a majority Anglo-Saxon population and a British monarch as their head of state?
Who is kidding or common sense is the biggest victim here.
:lol:
#15191213
Russianbear wrote:
Anglos have a strange "logic." For 150 years, they claimed that Hong Kong was a British colony, although it was practically impossible to see that any British colonized Hong Kong. Now they claim that Taiwan is not a Chinese land even though more than 97% of Han Chinese live in Taiwan?
At the same time, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders claim that their territories are not British colonies, although they are led by a majority Anglo-Saxon population and a British monarch as their head of state?
Who is kidding or common sense is the biggest victim here.




Google could be your friend, you know, if you wanted to have a clue.
#15191215
AFAIK wrote:
@late
I can give you some historical examples if you want. They were called unequal treaties.
When you have a loaded gun pointed at your head hearing the words, "Don't worry I won't pull the trigger this time," isn't very reassuring.



Make up your mind.

Either they have freedom of navigate for peaceful uses, or they are trying to expand the reach of their military, and their ability to use that power.

To satisfy China, the Phillipines were kicking American forces out. They stopped that in June, because of Chinese encroachment into their territory..

Respond on point, or give it a rest.
#15191279
You expect the Chinese to practice historical amnesia because the great powers aren't currently shitting down their throats? :lol: Yeah the Philippines expelled the US and then invited them back just as Nato promised not to expand towards Russia and then did so anyway.

Being wealthy and weak is a dangerous combination.
#15191280
Russianbear wrote:Anglos have a strange "logic."

For 150 years, they claimed that Hong Kong was a British colony, although it was practically impossible to see that any British colonized Hong Kong.


They did, less demographically (unlike, say, Chinese colonization to much of its western half), but more culturally.


Russianbear wrote:Now they claim that Taiwan is not a Chinese land even though more than 97% of Han Chinese live in Taiwan?


National recognition merge and split all the time.

Most Swiss, Austrians or even Liechtensteiners can be said as Germans. Does this stop them from establishing countries of their own?

The USA are definitely created by ethnic Great British, as a split-off from the Kingdom of Great Britain.

Both Hong Kong and Taiwan are demographically Han Chinese, true.
However, many of us Hongkongers and Taiwanese don't find ourselves culturally connected to our Mainland counterparts, who in recent years decide to take up a megalomaniacal approach.

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