Roe VS Wade officially goes back before the Supreme Court - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15201304
Pants-of-dog wrote:As far as I know, no western society has made vaccination compulsory.


But that is about to change in Austria and perhaps Italy if their PM gets his wish.

Comparing vaccinations and being forced to be a human incubator is like comparing apples and banana fruit cakes. I spend so much time arguing with a friend who hovers somewhere between vaccine sceptic and anti-vaxxer that I'm thinking about strangling him and get it over with.
#15201306
wat0n wrote:No, but you can't deny that (instead) their rights are severely restricted in countries like Austria and Germany, until they vaccinate. I recall you were OK with this, so why wouldn't one be OK with restricting bodily autonomy when it comes to pregnancy?

I can't really think of any other logical reason except thinking that the fetus isn't really a person, which as I said is entirely possible - just wish both sides of the debate would just accept that the ultimate issue at stake is the fetus' alleged personhood. If we all agreed fetuses are not people and have no human rights, then we'd have no issues with abortion at all beyond (maybe) its financial cost, and even then it's not like those are super expensive either.


Again, I am assuming that the fetus (or even fertilised ovum) is a person with full rights like you and I.

Now, while unvaccinated people have had certain rights restricted (like freedom of association), we are not discussing those rights. We are specifically discussing the balance between right to life and right to body autonomy. And in that specific case, western societies all choose the right to body autonomy over right to life, except when it comes to pregnancy.

——————-

@MadMonk

I completely agree, but I need to know:

Is banana fruit cake a thing, or is it just another term for banana bread?
#15201309
Pants-of-dog wrote: Is banana fruit cake a thing, or is it just another term for banana bread?


They're quite close. Banana bread uses regular flour while banana cake uses pastry flour, making it a little lighter. Also frosting on top but that can go on both. :p
#15201311
Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, I am assuming that the fetus (or even fertilised ovum) is a person with full rights like you and I.

Now, while unvaccinated people have had certain rights restricted (like freedom of association), we are not discussing those rights. We are specifically discussing the balance between right to life and right to body autonomy. And in that specific case, western societies all choose the right to body autonomy over right to life, except when it comes to pregnancy.


Hold on, freedom of association is also restricted for those who commit abortion (not just the women seeking them, but also doctors who perform them). And in both cases such restrictions are ostensibly to save other persons' (or "persons") lives.
#15201313
You're missing the point. In both cases, the right to bodily autonomy is being balanced against protecting lives and in both the latter wins. In both, too, the measures taken against those who don't accept intrusions into their bodily autonomy takes the form of having other rights being limited in some way, such as freedom of association.

As such, no, pregnancy is not the only case in which societies are limiting bodily autonomy for protecting the right to life of other persons, assuming fetuses are indeed persons.
#15201314
wat0n wrote:You're missing the point. In both cases, the right to bodily autonomy is being balanced against protecting lives and in both the latter wins. In both, too, the measures taken against those who don't accept intrusions into their bodily autonomy takes the form of having other rights being limited in some way, such as freedom of association.

As such, no, pregnancy is not the only case in which societies are limiting bodily autonomy for protecting the right to life of other persons, assuming fetuses are indeed persons.


No.

In the case of vaccination, the right to body autonomy is respected and vaccination is not compulsory.

Other rights are infringed, such as the right to association, but the right to body autonomy is not.
#15201323
wat0n wrote:I had no idea that governments could "un-abort" fetuses and force a woman who had an abortion deliver it to term :p


i have no idea where this strawman came from.

——————

Having made this argument about a right to the autonomy of the body, it is worth noting that the US constitution and bill of rights do not mention this right.
#15201324
Rancid wrote:Indeed. I'm for a small pro-business government. I don't understand why we republicans are against this basic tenant. fewer laws, and more business.

USA! USA! USA!



I think @Potemkin said once that Libertarianism is only paramount to the GOP line of thinking when it is convenient to be so. Making money is the US way, unless the Democrats are involved. Then it's Socialism.
#15201326
Pants-of-dog wrote:i have no idea where this strawman came from.


If a woman has an abortion there's no way to turn it back. The rights she'll see being limited as a result of going to jail will be, among others, freedom of association - exactly as it is happening to the unvaccinated in countries like Austria and Germany. So under your reasoning, banning abortion would not affect a woman's right to bodily autonomy but other rights.

:)
#15201331
SpecialOlympian wrote:And only the woman is imprisoned. The men are just as responsible for creating a life with a murderer, and are therefore just as culpable. They will go on to recommit their crime if not removed from society.


The medic who performs the abortion also goes to jail, though.

But now that you mention it, in the specific case of rape it would make sense for the rapist to go to jail if the victim aborts, even if abortion is illegal.
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