[ckaihatsu]

Do you condone the mass murder of Ukrainians?

Is this particular hypothetical group of Ukrainians *fascists* -- ?

[ckaihatsu]

Nobody is "encircling Russia". Look at the history.

Russia is surrounded by nations it essentially conquered and bullied into the USSR/Warsaw pact. Little more than cannon fodder in the days of the USSR.

Then the USSR dies. East Germany, naturally reunites with West Germany. What are the others to do? Join a collapsed country with a faltering economy and uncertain political future or align with the prosperous, free and welcoming West/Europe? Are you maintaining that Poland should have thrown its lot into an alliance with a country to this say with an economy smaller than Italy?

Russia had and still has the opportunity to plead its case to these nations. It even, given a regime change, could embrace the West and enjoy the massive economic benefits that would offer.

Nobody is encircling Russia. Russia is cultivating enemies on its borders all by itself. They need no help from the big bad USA when it comes to making enemies. Care to guess what these nations think about the brazen and unprovoked attack on their sovereign neighbor?

No sympathy for Russia AT ALL.

So I gathered.

Sorry, but this all just smacks of the '00s *color revolutions*. Really, at this point, it just feels like an entirely hollow geopolitical *exercise*, to keep up appearances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_revolution


The USSR itself is *another* matter, which you may or may not want to pursue.

[Rancid]

Is this particular hypothetical group of Ukrainians *fascists* -- ?

Do you think Ukrainians are fascists?

[ckaihatsu]

Do you think Ukrainians are fascists?

This is *your* fantasy -- *you* run with it -- !


= D

[noemon]

Okay, noted, thanks.

Ehhhh, I'm not going to get *that* wrapped-up in the intricacies of such geopolitics -- it's not my concern.

You spoke of a geopolitical trap by America and now you do not wish to get wrapped up in the claim that you made.

What I *will* say is that this is a geopolitical *rebuffing* of Western predation, which is fair in-and-of-itself.

Also the Ukraine EU / NATO / whatever membership is just a *formality*, as others have noted -- things are chummy-enough as they were, anyway.

Your second question is really a *strawman*, though, because this *isn't* a retro-Cold-War superpower showdown -- there's no *equivalency* in the scales involved, so then it's necessarily primarily *diplomatic* / geopolitical.

Yeah man it is a real politik showdown only in so far as it justifies your bias but when it doesn't, real politik does not exist or rather the rules of real politik do not apply.

Why this double-standard?

Why is Putin provoking and encircling Europe by bombing every country that expresses a desire to join the EU?

Should NATO bomb every country that expresses a desire to join the CSTO?

You're *evading* the *original* question / issue, which is why can't NATO just back the fuck off -- if everything is so purportedly even-handed and whatever.

Why can't Russia back off from Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia? These people, the real people when you talk to them in real life they do not want her. They want to join Europe, trade, live and go clubbing. They are European people, Roman citizens for over 1000 years.

Why can they not decide as a people to do this very simple thing?

This is *your* fantasy -- *you* run with it -- !

It's your explicit statement. You openly justify the death of Ukrainians on Putin's denazification basis, explicitly.

[Rancid]

This is *your* fantasy -- *you* run with it -- !

The very fact you are ducking, dodging, bush beating, etc. say's it all.

[ckaihatsu]

Ehhhh, I'm not going to get *that* wrapped-up in the intricacies of such geopolitics -- it's not my concern.

You spoke of a geopolitical trap by America and now you do not wish to get wrapped up in the claim that you made.

Okay, gotta stiffen the resolve -- let the liquor kick in first.... (grin)

Here's what's going on: 800 military bases *worldwide*, and far from justifiable, given the history of U.S. imperialism.

Russia 'invaded' *its own* territory -- what's the big-deal? You can't finger-point and say Russia started it, when there *is no* 'it'.

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

Main articles: Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

In spring 2021, Russia began building up troop strengths along its border with Ukraine.[202][203] On 22 February 2022, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered military forces to enter the breakaway Ukrainian republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, calling the act a "peacekeeping mission". Putin also officially recognized Donetsk and Luhansk as sovereign states, fully independent from the Ukrainian government.[204][205]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#2 ... of_Ukraine

The Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic are disputed territories in Donbas. The central government of Ukraine regards the republics as being under terrorist control.

Both declared independence from Ukraine following an unofficial status referendum in 2014. Shortly thereafter, both self-proclaimed states merged to form the short-lived confederation of Novorossiya which was suspended a year later. Also in 2014, South Ossetia, a similar breakaway separatist republic, recognized the independence of both states. On the eve of the invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the two republics were recognized as independent states by Russia, followed by breakaway state Abkhazia four days later.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... s_Republic

---

Also the Ukraine EU / NATO / whatever membership is just a *formality*, as others have noted -- things are chummy-enough as they were, anyway.

Your second question is really a *strawman*, though, because this *isn't* a retro-Cold-War superpower showdown -- there's no *equivalency* in the scales involved, so then it's necessarily primarily *diplomatic* / geopolitical.

Yeah man it is a real politik showdown only in so far as it justifies your bias but when it doesn't, real politik does not exist or rather the rules of real politik do not apply.

Why this double-standard?

Actually my politics *aren't* realpolitik. I excerpted from a socialist website, and the statement spoke *critically* of unfolding U.S. imperialist maneuvers. That's *counter*-hegemony, politically.

Why is Putin provoking and encircling Europe by bombing every country that expresses a desire to join the EU?

He's *not* -- you're *dramatizing* the formal Russian recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Ukraine doesn't have a leg to stand on -- the mere act of name-calling (Russia as 'terrorist') doesn't confer *authority* over the Donbas.

Should NATO bomb every country that expresses a desire to join the CSTO?

Instead of entertaining your digressionary hypotheticals, I think I'll just reiterate that NATO needs to take a step back.

Why can't Russia back off from Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia?

Why? What's going on in Georgia and Armenia right now?

These people, the real people when you talk to them in real life they do not want her. They want to join Europe, trade, live and go clubbing. They are European people, Roman citizens for over 1000 years.

Why can they not decide as a people to do this very simple thing?

I think they're already doing it, as we speak. What are they allegedly being prevented from doing, exactly -- ?

It's your explicit statement. You openly justify the death of Ukrainians on Putin's denazification basis, explicitly.

No -- you're *imputing* that. I was still seeking *clarification* on what the demographic-in-question was.

[ckaihatsu]

The very fact you are ducking, dodging, bush beating, etc. say's it all.

What am I 'ducking', 'dodging', and 'bush beating [around]'?

[noemon]

Here's what's going on: 800 military bases *worldwide*, and far from justifiable, given the history of U.S. imperialism.

Justifiability is not determined by numbers but by the manner that they came into being and continue to exist as such. It depends on the location and the actual consent received or not.

Russia 'invaded' *its own* territory -- what's the big-deal? You can't finger-point and say Russia started it, when there *is no* 'it'.

It is called Ukraine. It's a country in Europe of 40 million people.

Actually my politics *aren't* realpolitik. I excerpted from a socialist website, and the statement spoke *critically* of unfolding U.S. imperialist maneuvers. That's *counter*-hegemony, politically.

Hooliganism on the backs of European people, very nice. So counter hegemony Russia and China can just attack European countries in pursuit of counter-hegemony team side.

He's *not* -- you're *dramatizing* the formal Russian recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Ukraine doesn't have a leg to stand on -- the mere act of name-calling (Russia as 'terrorist') doesn't confer *authority* over the Donbas.

Yes he is, Putin attacked Georgia, he permitted Armenia to be attacked by Turkey despite Armenia being in the CSTO and he attacked Ukraine, all because they started talking to EU officials for trade agreements.

Instead of entertaining your digressionary hypotheticals, I think I'll just reiterate that NATO needs to take a step back.

I do not care what you think NATO should do, why would I, do you care about what I think NATO or Russia should do?

The point is elsewhere, I am telling you that if you believe Russia justified to increase her military footprint against Europe then NATO is equally justified to do the same at Russian expense.

I think they're already doing it, as we speak. What are they allegedly being prevented from doing, exactly -- ?

Signing trade association agreements with the EU.

No -- you're *imputing* that. I was still seeking *clarification* on what the demographic-in-question was.

Sure

[Rancid]

What am I 'ducking', 'dodging', and 'bush beating [around]'?

Do you think Ukraine is full of fascists/Nazis, and do you think they should be murdered en masse?

[ckaihatsu]

Justifiability is not determined by numbers but by the manner that they came into being and continue to exist as such. It depends on the location and the actual consent received or not.

Yeah -- try going with 'or not' from that sentence, since the history of U.S. imperialism is notoriously bloody and rapacious.

It is called Ukraine. It's a country in Europe of 40 million people.

You missed this part:

The Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic are disputed territories in Donbas. The central government of Ukraine regards the republics as being under terrorist control.

Both declared independence from Ukraine following an unofficial status referendum in 2014.

---

Hooliganism on the backs of European people, very nice. So counter hegemony Russia and China can just attack European countries in pursuit of counter-hegemony team side.

This is more of your hypotheticals-fantasizing. None of this is real-world.

Yes he is, Putin attacked Georgia, he permitted Armenia to be attacked by Turkey despite Armenia being in the CSTO and he attacked Ukraine, all because they started talking to EU officials for trade agreements.

I'll pass on this, to IA, since he's more of a Russian nationalist than I am.

I do not care what you think NATO should do, why would I, do you care about what I think NATO or Russia should do?

The point is elsewhere, I am telling you that if you believe Russia justified to increase her military footprint against Europe

More fiction.

then NATO is equally justified to do the same at Russian expense.

So if your fantasy happened to be true then everything would be symmetrical and your counterposed-hypothetical would align with the real world situation, and would be imaginarily justified. Fun!

Signing trade association agreements with the EU.

Impasse, I guess. The cool-kids club will be disappointed. Was it worth doing that fascist coup in 2014 -- ?

Sure

It's obvious you'd rather jump-to-foregone-conclusions and *impute* / 'project' your own imaginings, over any actually-stated position of mine.

The demographic in question was never specified, so *nothing's* been described yet regarding my politics towards a hypothetical group of Ukrainian fascists.

[ckaihatsu]

Do you think Ukraine is full of fascists/Nazis, and do you think they should be murdered en masse?

That's better. Thank you.

No, I do not think that Ukraine is full of fascists / Nazis, though there *are* plenty -- plenty enough to do that fascist coup in 2014, 'Euromaidan'.

Again 'they' isn't well-defined on your end, so I can't comment.

[Rancid]

That's better. Thank you.

No, I do not think that Ukraine is full of fascists / Nazis, though there *are* plenty -- plenty enough to do that fascist coup in 2014, 'Euromaidan'.

Again 'they' isn't well-defined on your end, so I can't comment.

What percentage of the population do you need to be fascist to justify killing everyone indiscriminately?

[noemon]

Yeah -- try going with 'or not' from that sentence, since the history of U.S. imperialism is notoriously bloody and rapacious.

That may be and Russia's even bloodier but your feeling is void in a real politik scenario and in a self-determination one as we see right below:

You missed this part: 'Donbass'

You missed the part where these territories have been under Russian control since 2014.

Impasse, I guess. The cool-kids club will be disappointed. Was it worth doing the euromaidan popular uprising in 2014 -- ?

Why are Russians justified to self-determine in Ukraine by separating but Ukrainians cannot even self-determine to sign an EU trade agreement?

This is more of your hypotheticals-fantasizing. None of this is real-world.

It's not real-world, it's just your own words after all.

I'll pass on this, to IA, since he's more of a Russian nationalist than I am.

So if your fantasy happened to be true then everything would be symmetrical and your counterposed-hypothetical would align with the real world situation, and would be imaginarily justified. Fun!

That's exactly you in realization mode and hence it is fun when you come full circle as I only turned your own statement on its head.

It's obvious you'd rather jump-to-foregone-conclusions and *impute* / 'project' your own imaginings, over any actually-stated position of mine.

The demographic in question was never specified, so *nothing's* been described yet regarding my politics towards a hypothetical group of Ukrainian fascists.

Dude, you are not going to convince me of something other than what you are openly & actively doing. Not sure if that worked with your mother but I'm not it.

[ckaihatsu]

That may be and Russia's even bloodier but your feeling is void in a real politik scenario and in a self-determination one as we see right below:

You have no actual real-world *history* to refer to, for your claim of '[bloody Russian imperialism]', since there has *been no* alleged Russian imperialism. Western / European imperialism has been the predominant historical-militarist force since nationalist mercantilism, circa 15th century.

You missed the part where these territories have been under Russian control since 2014.

No peep from me. There was a *referendum* in those Donbas republics.

Why are Russians justified to self-determine in Ukraine by separating but Ukrainians cannot even self-determine to sign an EU trade agreement?

Basically it's about nationalist politics -- or, *ultra*-nationalist politics, meaning fascist-coup-led ones, with U.S. imperialist support (Nuland).

It's not real-world, it's just your own words after all.

*Your* words / characterizations -- not mine.

That's exactly you in realization mode and hence it is fun when you come full circle as I only turned your own statement on its head.

Heads-I-win, tails-you-lose, huh, noemon?

Instead of trying to tabloid-newsify all exchanges here, why not just return to the *topics* / issues.

You think a fascist coup (Euromaidan) was justified, just so Ukraine could suddenly join the NATO / EU club.

Dude, you are not going to convince me of something other than what you are openly & actively doing. Not sure if that worked with your mother but I'm not it.

Okay, what *are* all of these imputations -- ?

What am I 'openly and actively doing' -- ?

What did I allegedly convince my mother of -- ?

[ckaihatsu]

What percentage of the population do you need to be fascist to justify killing everyone indiscriminately?

It doesn't work that way -- fascists can be fascists as long as they keep it to themselves and don't show any hint of it publicly / in civil society.

Personally I don't think *any* of it should be allowed on the Internet since that's a public display.

Remember that fascist politics call for the *scapegoating* and victimization of social minorities, like Jews.

*Anyone* could make a decent case on-the-spot for a *pre-emptive* use of force to neutralize such socially harmful politics and practices.

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism ... _supremacy

[noemon]

You have no actual real-world *history* to refer to, for your claim of '[bloody Russian imperialism]', since there has *been no* alleged Russian imperialism. Western / European imperialism has been the predominant historical-militarist force since nationalist mercantilism, circa 15th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire

No peep from me. There was a *referendum* in those Donbas republics. Basically it's about nationalist politics -- or, *ultra*-nationalist politics, meaning fascist-coup-led ones, with U.S. imperialist support .

Why is the Donbass referendum under Wagner group occupation valid but the Ukrainian elections invalid?

Heads-I-win, tails-you-lose, huh, noemon?

No, you lose either way because you are the one making the claim that based on realpolitik Russia was justified to attack but in actuallity the weaker party does not attack, it rather gets attacked and especially so when it initiates an attack.

Instead of trying to tabloid-newsify all exchanges here, why not just return to the *topics* / issues.

You think a fascist coup (Euromaidan) was justified, just so Ukraine could suddenly join the NATO / EU club.

Okay, what *are* all of these imputations -- ?

What am I 'openly and actively doing' -- ?

Ukraine had decided to sign the EU trade agreement before the popular uprising in 2014, the disgraced Russian puppet Yanukovych had promised to sign it.

Notice how I am not name-calling Russian actions or Russia but you keep disgracing the Ukrainian people continuously in every post you make while openly justifying the Russian invasion as a "counter-hegemony operation" and while you whine that I and Rancid "make up reality". You seem detached from the reality of your own self.

You used "fascist coup" to refer to euromaidan 4 times in this thread already, next time there will be not.

What did I allegedly convince my mother of -- ?

Of being her victim while stealing from her purse.

[Drlee]

@ckaihatsu You missed the part where Russia guaranteed unconditionally to honor Ukraine's sovereignty and promised never to attack it when Ukraine gave up its nukes.

Does that part not matter anymore?

I am astonished that there are still Russian supporters in this matter. There has, in the past 100 years, never been so clear an example of unprovoked naked aggression with the possible exception of Germany's occupation of Poland. And I would remind the Russian fanboys that the penalty for attacking Poland was the utter destruction of Germany and the execution of many of its leaders.

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu You missed the part where Russia guaranteed unconditionally to honor Ukraine's sovereignty and promised never to attack it when Ukraine gave up its nukes.

You missed the part where I said something and then the one-sided conversation was continued *around* me.

Does that part not matter anymore?

I am astonished that there are still Russian supporters in this matter. There has, in the past 100 years, never been so clear an example of unprovoked naked aggression with the possible exception of Germany's occupation of Poland. And I would remind the Russian fanboys that the penalty for attacking Poland was the utter destruction of Germany and the execution of many of its leaders.

Equating WWII Nazi-defeating Russia with WWII Nazi Germany. Great. As though there's no difference whatsoever between the two, on the basis of an imagined generic 'extremism' for both. Poland was *collaborationist*, f.y.i.

[Drlee]

Stop babbling. When you are ready to make sense let me know.