[wat0n]

Honestly, I wish the US would stop the stupid blockade thing. It is merely giving the government excuses. Let's say the blockade ends today, you think McDonalds is going to be rushing to open the business down there? Call me skeptic.

They wouldn't, but lifting the embargo (it's not a blockade, the US hasn't deployed its military to stop people from entering or leaving the island at all) right now would likely encourage the government to keep pressing on - it would probably be interpreted as a show of weakness, if not outright support for the current government.

I also think it's unlikely lifting the embargo would change the situation much, if at all. If anything, Obama's gestures towards Cuba were not met with any significant reforms, they only kept moving at snail pace as Venezuela oil stopped flowing (because, yes, Cuba will eventually become a market economy even if the communists remain in power).

[XogGyux]

They wouldn't, but lifting the embargo (it's not a blockade, the US hasn't deployed its military to stop people from entering or leaving the island at all) right now would likely encourage the government to keep pressing on - it would probably be interpreted as a show of weakness, if not outright support for the current government.

I merely used the word you used, you were the one saying it is a blockade. As long as we know we are both talking about the economic sanctions then it is OK.
Dude. Cuba is not more than an ant compared to the US. Political backlash perhaps but any sort of real, meaningful sociopolitical consequences? I am skeptical.

I also think it's unlikely lifting the embargo would change the situation much, if at all.

That is precisely my point. It truly has had no effect what so ever on weakening Cuba's leadership grasp on power. Meanwhile it is offering them a scapegoat and the rest of the world a propaganda tool.
As far as I am concerned, this embargo thing is only slowing down the demise of the system.

[wat0n]

I merely used the word you used, you were the one saying it is a blockade. As long as we know we are both talking about the economic sanctions then it is OK.
Dude. Cuba is not more than an ant compared to the US. Political backlash perhaps but any sort of real, meaningful sociopolitical consequences? I am skeptical.

I didn't use the term "blockade". The Cuban propaganda does.

Lifting the embargo could be interpreted by the government as carte blanche for a much harsher response.

That is precisely my point. It truly has had no effect what so ever on weakening Cuba's leadership grasp on power. Meanwhile it is offering them a scapegoat and the rest of the world a propaganda tool.
As far as I am concerned, this embargo thing is only slowing down the demise of the system.

It seems that even that argument that the government can just blame the US isn't all that correct anymore, given the protests.

I don't think lifting the embargo would significantly improve the lives of ordinary Cubans, even more so since one of the few concessions the government has granted was to actually eliminate the tariffs on imports of food and medicines (odd, one would think they didn't have those if they were so keen on buying abroad). But it would probably be interpreted as a strong signal to keep pressing on by the government.

[XogGyux]

I didn't use the term "blockade". The Cuban propaganda does.

Oh I understand. You are falling into an equivocation fallacy. Cubans speak Spanish not english. What they say is "bloqueo economico" which translates to economic block which is what an embargo is.

Embargo: an official ban on trade or other commercial activity with a particular country.

Lifting the embargo could be interpreted by the government as carte blanche for a much harsher response.

Response against the US? Are you fighting? Response against its people? I doubt it, but even so... don't you think that would work towards further de-destabilizing the cuban goverment? Wasen't that the whole point of the embargo anyway?

It seems that even that argument that the government can just blame the US isn't all that correct anymore, given the protests.

Of course they do and they will. Wether this excuse will change the protester's mind its another question entirely. Probably not, they have grown to hear the same tune over and over. But remember when husband and wife are fighting, if you try to interrupt, chances are they will put aside their differences and shout at you. As far as I can tell, the blockade only works to allow the goverment to have all the cards.
Let family seind their loved ones a few hundred bucks or perhaps a toursit spend some time in the hotel or perhaps cocacola sell some products there. That will accentuate the difference between the people that have $$ and those that do not have $$. How did revolutions happen? When people realize that they have been cheated out of oportunity.
It is sad to cheer for some sort of confrontations between cubans brothers and sisters, but it will have to happen before their system changes. Blood was spilled to institute Castro's dictatorship, I suspect blood will be spilled before his legacy can be erased. I hope not, but again, im a cynic guy.

Most importantly... has the embargo been successful at anything? Other than making the US look fucking stupid and impotent, it has not succeeded. There is no point to it.

[QatzelOk]

Seems like somebody only wants to hear a certain type of information form/of cuba. Echo chamber.

Yes, the Canadians who re-post content from Miami are acting as brainless echo chambers.

The reality is the protesters are identifying the main culprit, the Cuban goverment.

Are you saying this because you are standing beside Cuban protestors in Cuba right now, or are you also just echoing things that other people have told you?

I only ask this because echos are not worth replying to.

[XogGyux]

Yes, the Canadians who re-post content from Miami are acting as brainless echo chambers.


Are you saying this because you are standing beside Cuban protestors in Cuba right now, or are you also just echoing things that other people have told you?

I only ask this because echos are not worth replying to.

My opinion about cuba did not change after the protests. I fact I don't really think they are as game-changing as some of the news seem to be reporting, we will see.
I speculate that last year, the cuban goverment went crazy putting our own protests on display as an example of how the US system is bad. I don't know this because I am not living there now, however I know how they operate and I am willing to bet $$ that they did and use it as a propaganda. I think that might have inspired people, they might have had their strategy backfire on them .

[QatzelOk]

My opinion about cuba did not change after the protests.

That wasn't an issue.

You said you *know* what the protests are about.
And you said you *know* that people are calling for capitalism. For a return to mafia-led casinos and colonialism.

And yet, you don't know this at all unless you're in Cuba right now.

Which you aren't. You're just trying to manipulate *dumb Americans on the net* into bombing Cuba and letting you go back to being a Haitian-style slumlord there.

But *dumb Americans on the net* don't all live in hot, muggy swamps with shotguns hanging on the wall - like you're used to. In Florida, the ocean is starting to reclaim land and knock down buildings. And your leadership can only think of driving big cars on top of Cubans - there is no drive to *deal with the problems you have right there in Florida*.

This is so colonial. Never thinking about the real problems of real people in real places. Just trying to hustle your way into exploiting other people who can't defend themselves.

[XogGyux]

That wasn't an issue.

You said you *know* what the protests are about.

I don't think I have made such a claim. More importantly, the protesters are screaming what the protests are about, it is not such a secret.

And you said you *know* that people are calling for capitalism.

When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.
You keep trying to spin this as being a socialism vs capitalism shit. The Cuban people have a bigger problem, freedom, or technically lack of it.

For a return to mafia-led casinos and colonialism.

LOL you smoking too much weed.

And yet, you don't know this at all unless you're in Cuba right now.

Oh please, entitled canadian neo-socialist. Shut up.

In Florida, the ocean is starting to reclaim land and knock down buildings. And your leadership can only think of driving big cars on top of Cubans

You think this is a problem exclusive of Florida? Or even Capitalism?
If so, you are pretty naive. Cuba destroyed part of their own ecosystem, they razed trees to open up beaches for tourism despite the warnings of Cuban environmentalists that warned that this would erode their coastlines. Sure enough this happened, and sure enough they had to start pumping sand to replenish the beaches. Except unlike the US who has tons of money to spend on sand for their beaches, cuba is a fucking poor country. Examples are too numerous to count, I won't bother, you will simply ignore it and keep talking nonsense.

[QatzelOk]

Peter Bolton mocks the silliness of "allowing ex-Cubans to make foreign policy via Cuba" by comparing it to if Argentina letting its ex-Nazi population determine Argentina's foreign policy towards West and East Germany.

Imagine how ticked off they were about losing their great jobs in the Nazi government.

...basing policy on how to best court the votes of an immigrant community only happens when that community’s priorities happen to align with US foreign policy goals.

To further illustrate the absurdity, image this dynamic happening in any other country in any other point in history.

Imagine, for instance, if Argentinian political parties in the 1950s and ‘60s had suggested imposing sanctions on either of the states in Germany that emerged in the post-war era in order to court the substantial German-Argentine exile community of Nazi fugitives.

This might on the surface seem like an extreme, unfair, and perhaps even ridiculous comparison. But consider that some of the major leaders of the Cuban-American exile community are in some cases from the very families that were politically close to the Batista government, which, in fact, had many characteristics of fascism. For one thing, it was a dictatorship that came to power via a military coup. It also operated secretive death squads that murdered and tortured political opponents and took bribes from the mafia in exchange for allowing it to monopolize large parts of Cuba’s economy. So, the analogy is actually a perfectly fair one.

Maybe if Argentina had sanctionned the non-Nazi Germanies hard enough, this would have brought the Nazi government back, and the ex-pats would have gotten their great jobs back.

...While Nazi fugitives largely minded their own business in Argentina, however, the leaders of the Cuban-American community have openly aligned themselves with figures who have engaged in violent destabilization against Cuba.
...
Cubans living in the United States are not remotely representative of the Cuban people as whole...

[TruthSeeker777]

So a Communist nation with a Communist dictator, with decades old cars & lacking free internet access somehow proves that.... Capitalism is a failure?

You really don't understand the most basic logic do you?

Nobody climbs barbed wire fences under machine gun fire to escape Capitalism. Communism on the other hand...

Www.FreeWorldNews.TV

[QatzelOk]

Nobody climbs barbed wire fences under machine gun fire to escape Capitalism. Communism on the other hand...

The heroic Cuban people did the equivalent of "climbing barbed wire fences under machine gun fire" to escape their capitalist imprisonment.

The unheroic American mercenary is so selfish that he would rather sacrifice other people (including his own family, community, and the world's ecology) in order to acquire gold and diamonds.

The Euro-invader hasn't changed since the slave-trader Christopher Columbus started genociding the Siboney because they wouldn't be his slaves. He lies and kills for gold.

And then his dogs repeat his lies, hoping for scraps of meat under the table.

[XogGyux]

The heroic Cuban people did the equivalent of "climbing barbed wire fences under machine gun fire" to escape their capitalist imprisonment.

The unheroic American mercenary is so selfish that he would rather sacrifice other people (including his own family, community, and the world's ecology) in order to acquire gold and diamonds.

The Euro-invader hasn't changed since the slave-trader Christopher Columbus started genociding the Siboney because they wouldn't be his slaves. He lies and kills for gold.

And then his dogs repeat his lies, hoping for scraps of meat under the table.

Dude, you still have a grudge with Christopher Columbus? It is not enough that the guy has been dead for half a millennia?
Newsflash, it is the people that are alive, not the dead, that is keeping Cuba the cesspool that it is. And you, you are guilty for covering and apologizing on their behalf. Shame on you.

[QatzelOk]

Dude, you still have a grudge with Christopher Columbus?

Yes, I do. And so should any person who cares about human rights.

If Colombia ever breaks away from its USA-vassal-hood, it should change its name to a non-racist, non-genocidal hero from South America. Like Hatuey.

British Columbia, in Canada, combines the slave-traders' name with the group of Europeans who genocided the most locals. Statues are coming down as we speak. It could be renamed after a local First Nations hero.

Even Columbia sportswear should change their name - the slave-trader reference is way too close to the bone for a sweatshop-addicted brand.

Slave-trading is "one of the most important technologies" that Cuba has proven are failures.

[QatzelOk]

Recent data shows that between 2019 and 2021, life expectancy (LE) in the US plunged almost three years while for Cuba it edged up 0.2 years. Yet, in 1960, the year after its revolution, Cuba had a LE of 64.2 years, lower by 5.6 years than that in the US (69.8 years). As I document in Cuban Health Care, the island quickly caught up to the US and, from 1970 through 2016, the two countries were nip and tuck, with some years Cuba and other years the US, having a longer LE. But neither country was ever as much as one year of LE ahead of the other.


...
Over the past six decades more than 400,000 Cuban medical professionals have worked in 164 countries and improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people. In addition to providing Cuban doctors with experience coping with diseases and medical issues they do not see at home, this action is positive global diplomacy. US diplomacy, on the other hand, seems to focus on threatening to harm people and/or actually harming them.
...

It should be noted that Cubans are living longer than USA citizens.... and using about one twentieth the resources to accomplish this. Both facts are commendable and important for human survival.

[QatzelOk]

Here is a description of the CUBA that posters like XogGyux, wat0n and Truthseeker777 pine after:

...Among the more indelible impressions burned into my memory from a lifetime of travel is an image from the city center of Caracas, Venezuela, many years ago, seeing the grand display of the wealth of the elite class, with their huge palatial homes and the nearby private airport containing all their private jets. I met one man who had two planes because whenever he needed to take a business trip, his wife had “taken the damn thing to Miami to go shopping again”.

That’s half the image.

The other half was more or less across the street from the first half, and consisted of the long and steep side of a mountain, with homes covering the slope for as far as the eye could see. But these were not really homes; they were shantytown hovels of only a few square meters in size, cobbled together from scraps of wood, metal, anything.

Doors were simple openings in a wall, as were windows. Each home had a single electric light bulb with current supplied by a single cable that threaded its way up the slope between those thousands of residences.

There were no roads, a single winding footpath providing the only access. Both toilet and garbage can were one of the downslope windows, the rubbish and excrement eventually making their way to the bottom of the mountain. And it wasn’t only rubbish that made its way to the bottom. During heavy rains, the unanchored hovels would frequently lose their grip on the mountainside and thousands of homes with their occupants would find themselves gathered in a heap on the valley bottom. I have been unable to erase that memory of the opulent wealth and the heartbreaking abject poverty contained in the same single view of that city...

Private planes to shop in Miami for the rich, and houses that slide into piles of excrement for everyone else. Why don't you just honestly state this so we can all judge the merit of the project you propose.

[wat0n]

Caracas from "many years ago"? When?

[XogGyux]

Here is a description of the CUBA that posters like XogGyux, wat0n and Truthseeker777 pine after:



Private planes to shop in Miami for the rich, and houses that slide into piles of excrement for everyone else. Why don't you just honestly state this so we can all judge the merit of the project you propose.

Yeah, cuba is better off now, now nobody have private planes, unless you happen to be the ruling class in which you can just use the state's assets for you.
The Cuban Government is just as corrupt if not more than any other capitalistic government, the only difference between the two systems is that Cuban people are deeply poor, with less resources to survive but also to protest.

[XogGyux]

It should be noted that Cubans are living longer than USA citizens.... and using about one twentieth the resources to accomplish this. Both facts are commendable and important for human survival.

Should be noted that no dictatorship has even been found to be forging their own numbers

[wat0n]

Also, the fall in US life expectancy is primarily due to the pandemic. I actually wonder if we'll see similar falls in Europe if their estimates have not been updated yet.

@XogGyux even in Spanish, it's not correct to describe the US embargo as a "bloqueo". The Spanish word is the same: Embargo.

[XogGyux]

Also, the fall in US life expectancy is primarily due to the pandemic. I actually wonder if we'll see similar falls in Europe if their estimates have not been updated yet.

@XogGyux even in Spanish, it's not correct to describe the US embargo as a "bloqueo". The Spanish word is the same: Embargo.

The thing is, if you gonna say the fall in US expectancy is due to the pandemic, Cuba should also experience the same, the pandemic was everywhere. So that is a normalizing factor. Bullshit that they had better outcome than we did.
There are many reasons you could explain the differences. The American population is not particularly healthy, we have $$ and thus we suffer from a lot of conditions that come with high-calorie foods and sedentary lifestyles that we can afford, and also infant mortality. In the US there is legal/taboo issues with abortion, this is problematic for statistics, because if you have more High-risk pregnancies and birth, you will also have higher mother mortality and infant mortality rates. This is not a reflection of the medical capacity of either country, this is just a reflection of cultural and political situation, and it has nothing to do with technological failures or the economical system of the country.
But more importantly than explaining away a statistic.... Cuba and other dictatorial governments, are liars, they lie about anything and everything, even those things that nobody would care if you lied about. Cuba have been manufacturiing statistics for ages.

Perhaps embargo is more accurate but bloqueo is not necessarily incorrect, they are the US is banning certain products/diplomatic/economic activities with the island which in essence is a block of those activities and thus a bloqueo. I don't take much issue with that term and in any event it would be in the realm of semantics more than anything.