Liz Cheney mulls third-party run to block Trump victory - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15297892
@Rancid @Rugoz

I am not disputing that they are power hungry. My question is how would an autocrat/dictator help them with power if dictator by default has all the power. If you are power hungry then you have inherent interest not to allow a dictator/autocrat to rise to power since you will loose all power.

You can see this in history that even if democratic/oligarchic/parliamentary systems make deals with potential autocrats, they eventually provide large pushback against them and only in cases of extreme competence the dictator actually creates a dictatorship. Being mediocre or stupid makes you loose. You need to have extreme cunning, smarts and be able to coat yourself as being useful for both the people and majority chunk of elites or frighten them to actually establish a dictatorship from a democracy. Trump is nothing compared to that. With monarchies and other semi-dictatorships it is much easier but America is a fully democratic state.
#15297898
Rancid wrote:You don't think Republicans are power hungry? They have tilted the whole system in a way that gives them disproportionate power even though they are not as popular (gerry mandering, giving rural regions crazy amounts of power compared to cities, gutting anything that helps people that wouldn't vote for them).

Of course they are fucking power hungry. They don't care to help Americans, they just want to be rulers.


Don't Democrats do the same? Specially the gerrymandering.
#15297902
wat0n wrote:Don't Democrats do the same? Specially the gerrymandering.


The way in which Republicans/Trumpist are going about this is more destructive, dangerous, and destabilizing to the nation (and I would argue the world) than the Democrats at this particular junction. Last I checked, Democrats didn't support a coup, nor did they plan on how to take more power if Trumps Coup was successful.

WRT to gerrymandering, Republicans have used this tactic more, and leaned on it harder. It's the reason why Republicans can still win the presidency while losing the popular vote. It's why 20% of Texas (Rural conservative), has 80% of the power in the state.

This bizarre "argument" that "the democrats are doing it too, so it's ok" is weird.. because.. the democrats aren't doing it too (at least not in this destructive way). It's like people are still sleep walking on this "democrats vs republicans" bullshit. FUck democrats, and fuck Republicans even more.
#15297903
JohnRawls wrote:@Rancid @Rugoz

I am not disputing that they are power hungry. My question is how would an autocrat/dictator help them with power if dictator by default has all the power. If you are power hungry then you have inherent interest not to allow a dictator/autocrat to rise to power since you will loose all power.

You can see this in history that even if democratic/oligarchic/parliamentary systems make deals with potential autocrats, they eventually provide large pushback against them and only in cases of extreme competence the dictator actually creates a dictatorship. Being mediocre or stupid makes you loose. You need to have extreme cunning, smarts and be able to coat yourself as being useful for both the people and majority chunk of elites or frighten them to actually establish a dictatorship from a democracy. Trump is nothing compared to that. With monarchies and other semi-dictatorships it is much easier but America is a fully democratic state.


Those treasonous Republicans are playing to get into the dictators inner circle of power. Dictators, contrary to popular belief, do not have absolute power. They must keep a small inner circle happy. The dictator keeps them happy with money/rewards, and by delegating power to them as well (Putin does this by the way) so long as they do not contradict the dictators will. These Republicans are vying to get into that inner circle.

There's plenty of research that studies how dictatorships actually work. It is not how you (and most) think of it. Additionally to the close inner circle, there is an even larger pool of people just outside the inner circle that the dictator uses as leverage against the inner circle. The dicator can use this to swap in/out between the inner circle and the larger outer circle. This is how the dictator commands "loyalty" from the inner circle. Basically, by making them fear he can get others to turn on them and kick them out of the inner circle. So long as the dictator can keep the rewards of being loyal to him going within the inner circle, he's good, he can maintain power.

The entire republican party is fighting to get into that inner circle, and the larger circle just outside of the inner circle. They are... authoritarians that do not give a shit about America, just power.

I suggest you read the following book to understand this better:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDe ... 6AQAvD_BwE

The current dynamic between Republicans and Trumpist is exactly a prelude to a successful coup/dictatorship. This isn't shit I'm making up. Most people don't understand that this is how it happens.

Many, like yourself, still don't get it. Too many people still sleep walking on this. This is exactly why it may happen.

So yes, Republicans have something to gain by helping establish a dictator. Whatever stupid shit Democrats are currently doing, is no where near as insidious as this.
Last edited by Rancid on 09 Dec 2023 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
#15297904
It doesn't really matter if It is Donald Trump, Liz Cheney or anyone else from Republican Party. There is a need for a Republican government in Washington. It is the only way that US economy and global economy can start rebreath again.

Global economy is sick of statist policies. It is time to get back to conservative and libertarian policies.
#15297907
Istanbuller wrote:
It doesn't really matter if It is Donald Trump, Liz Cheney or anyone else from Republican Party. There is a need for a Republican government in Washington. It is the only way that US economy and global economy can start rebreath again.

Global economy is sick of statist policies. It is time to get back to conservative and libertarian policies.



The Republican party is a coalition of White Supremacists, religious extremists, and fascists...

It's not at all conservative. Aside from a few kooks, it's also not libertarian.
#15297911
late wrote:The Republican party is a coalition of White Supremacists, religious extremists, and fascists...

It's not at all conservative. Aside from a few kooks, it's also not libertarian.

It i just your exaggeration. But Republican Party is still much better option in terms of economics. Still a huge chunk of Republican politicians are American conservatives. These guys are pro- free market economy.

Democratic Party is not a viable option for US economy because it is not old school Democratic Party today. Democratic presidents do say thing like "the era of big government is over" anymore. It is full of crazy batshit socialists, authoritarians who want to intervene into all aspects of people.
#15297915
Istanbuller wrote:
It is just your exaggeration.

But Republican Party is still much better option in terms of economics.

Still a huge chunk of Republican politicians are American conservatives.

These guys are pro- free market economy.

Democratic Party is not a viable option for US economy because it is not old school Democratic Party today.

Democratic presidents do say thing like "the era of big government is over" anymore. It is full of crazy batshit socialists, authoritarians who want to intervene into all aspects of people.



Sorry, but I've been doing politics since the 1960s, that's descriptive, not exaggerated.

Most economists would disagree with you.

The free market idea is a myth. Capitalism has always been a cooperation between government and business. Markets ain't magic...

Biden is very Old School Democrat..

What you said translates into Modern. The Modern World is very flexible, but policies we left behind 100 years ago simply don't cut the mustard...
#15297918
late wrote:Sorry, but I've been doing politics since the 1960s, that's descriptive, not exaggerated.

Most economists would disagree with you.

Biden is very Old School Democrat..

What you said translates into Modern. The Modern World is very flexible, but policies we left behind 100 years ago simply don't cut the mustard...

I don't see him saying good things about market economy, less spending, small government. Biden is clearly not an old school Democrat.

The free market idea is a myth. Capitalism has always been a cooperation between government and business. Markets ain't magic...

:lol:
#15297940
Istanbuller wrote:

don't see him saying good things about market economy, less spending, small government.




The first fully capitalist economy was Britain in the 1800s. The government invested heavily in R&D, took over bridges, roads and London water. They also add regs.

They tried very hard to have a small government, and failed utterly.

Your ideas died over a century ago..
#15297963
late wrote:The first fully capitalist economy was Britain in the 1800s. The government invested heavily in R&D, took over bridges, roads and London water. They also add regs.

They tried very hard to have a small government, and failed utterly.

Your ideas died over a century ago..

:lol:

Did Bill Clinton say the famous quote "the era of big government is over" 100 years ago?

Moreover, why do you want the government to tax you so badly? As far as I know, you are not a billionaire and you don't run a business where the government can subsidize you.

Your government spend billions of US dollars to subsizde their fellow businessmen but does not give you a penny. It also impoverihing you with inflation. How is this working for you? :lol: :lol:
#15297967
Istanbuller wrote:Your government spend billions of US dollars to subsizde their fellow businessmen but does not give you a penny. It also impoverihing you with inflation. How is this working for you? :lol: :lol:


How is it working for you in Turkey?

Apparently you've learned nothing from voting for an populist autocrat, now you're suggesting others should to the same. Mind-bogglingly stupid.
#15297969
Rugoz wrote:How is it working for you in Turkey?

Apparently you've learned nothing from voting for an populist autocrat, now you're suggesting others should to the same. Mind-bogglingly stupid.

What does this have to do with Turkey? The topic and discussion is not about Turkey.

Stop replying my posts in an idiotic way. That is really silly.
#15297975
Istanbuller wrote:

Did Bill Clinton say the famous quote "the era of big government is over" 100 years ago?

Moreover, why do you want the government to tax you so badly? As far as I know, you are not a billionaire and you don't run a business where the government can subsidize you.

Your government spend billions of US dollars to subsidize their fellow businessmen but does not give you a penny. It also impoverihing you with inflation. How is this working for you?



Bill Clinton is a politician, not an economist.

Our taxes are comparable to other highly developed countries.

The economy is doing good. Considering that Covid should have thrown us into a recession, it borders on amazing. Labor productivity is up 5.2%, which is really, really good. Inflation is coming down, this year has seen deflation in the durable goods sector. Unemployment is so low it scared the Fed.

You need to realise that when Biden took office, the country was a disaster. Everybody was expecting a recession. He kept that from happening.

I think he's the best president since Ike, and that's saying something.
#15297977
Yea not sure where this nonsese of "the US economy is in the toliet" shit is coming from. At least by traditional measures (which is what everyone is claiming to use and have always used).

It's like these are all the reports of record unemployment, slowing inflation, etc. And the trumptards say this is bad, and use dumb ass slogans like "Bidenomics". It's like these people are so fucking stupid, that a catchy phrase is enough to get them to believe lies. :lol:

This is why America is doomed. It is exactly this retard right wing MAGA segment that is the problem.
#15297985
Rancid wrote:Yea not sure where this nonsese of "the US economy is in the toliet" shit is coming from. At least by traditional measures (which is what everyone is claiming to use and have always used).

It's like these are all the reports of record unemployment, slowing inflation, etc. And the trumptards say this is bad, and use dumb ass slogans like "Bidenomics". It's like these people are so fucking stupid, that a catchy phrase is enough to get them to believe lies. :lol:

This is why America is doomed. It is exactly this retard right wing MAGA segment that is the problem.


The interesting part is that much of the whining about the economy comes from both MAGA and the far left.
#15297997
wat0n wrote:The interesting part is that much of the whining about the economy comes from both MAGA and the far left.


What is the far left complaining about? I've mostly only seen them complain about income/wealth gap, and corporations using inflation as a cover to pad profits (both real problems by the way). Not sure what else they have been complaining about.
#15298010
Rancid wrote:What is the far left complaining about? I've mostly only seen them complain about income/wealth gap, and corporations using inflation as a cover to pad profits (both real problems by the way). Not sure what else they have been complaining about.


Very similar to the MAGA ones, if anything. On top of the usual ones you mention (which are also questionable).

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