[wat0n]

The evidence for the children dying of starvation has been presented. Every major humanitarian aid agency in the world is openly discussing it. There is no evidence at all disputing this tragedy.

If someone wants to find out how one paper calculated a specific average, Google might help.

I am still waiting for the 10 dead children/day Albanese claimed in her report.

It would be good for you to provide it.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Here are the 2 months-out-of-date World Bank numbers cited in the Times of Israel.

World Bank report finds 45% of residential buildings in Gaza ruined beyond repair
Heaviest damage estimated in north Gaza and Gaza City area, where some 60% of residential structures were destroyed and thousands more impacted, leaving over 1 million homeless
By TANI GOLDSTEIN and TOI STAFF
24 January 2024, 7:40 pm

Note the date ...

24 January 2024

[wat0n]

@ingliz and yet the specialized UN body for satellite image analysis - UNOSAT - still has a much lower estimate.

Unfortunately, that WB isn't public so we can't know exactly what they did.

[Pants-of-dog]

There is an article from WSJ from December that shows more widespread destruction.

It is possible that the WSJ study used more than just satellite images.

[wat0n]

The WSJ didn't do a study. It cited a study from two academics.

Their latest estimate is also below the figures cited by Albanese.

[Pants-of-dog]

There are other articles that have higher amounts of destroyed buildings.

The exact number is immaterial. What matters is whether or not a significant portion of the population is forced to move because of it (which seems to be the case) and whether or not it was intentional.

The destruction of housing seems to be systematic and international.

[wat0n]

International?

A large proportion of the population was forced to move because Hamas built its own infrastructure in all of Gaza's cities, as the myriad of tunnels found shows, and it is necessary to find and destroy them. This is not genocide

[Pants-of-dog]

Providing a justification for the claim that the population was forcibly removed from their homes does not contradict the claim.

In fact, it supports and explains why the claim is correct.

[wat0n]

Wrong. Genocide requires special intent, as such, you need to prove that the only logical reason for what we're seeing in Gaza is that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians there.

Furthermore, even Israelis (thousands of them) have been evacuated from dangerous areas both in the northern and southern part of the country. So evacuating civilians away from danger is, if anything, standard procedure.

[Pants-of-dog]

So the next part of the paper discusses the specific intent of genocide in Gaza (i.e. that the only logical reason for what we are seeing in Gaza is that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians there).

First, the author looks at several key statements by Israeli politicians and IDF officials that either dehumanize Palestinians or can easily be perceived as such. The author then points out that this same language is used in social media by IDF soldiers, indicating that this dehumanizing is pervasive in the IDF.

Then the author discusses how the idea of human shields has been used as way of legitimizing any attack by IDF on civilians. All Gaza residents are described as militants, accomplices, or human shields, and all three are considered legal targets by the IDF and Israeli government, making every Palestinian in Gaza into a legal target. This deliberate misuse of terminology shows intent.

[wat0n]

Why should I believe in a paper that makes unsourced claims?

And written by a rape denier at that.

[skinster]

[Pants-of-dog]

In this thread, for example, we see Palestinians defined as militants. accomplices, or human shields (by Zionist supporters, obviously). So this tactic of making every single Palestinian into a lawful target is pervasive.

It is worth noting that because a militant is using a civilian as a human shield does not give the attacker carte blanche to shoot the civilian as a way to get to the militant. That is illegal according to international law.

[wat0n]

No, it does not. It is governed by the rather vague and subjective rules of "proportionality in attack" that are also interpreted by many militaries as saying that the risk to the attacker should be counted as well. Meaning, then, that it can become a rather permissive rule in practice and it is interpreted that way by pretty much all militaries when engaged in urban combat.

This also doesn't have much to do with genocide.

[Pants-of-dog]

So we agree that it is not simply carte blanche and the attacker still has obligations to protect civilian life when necessary.

And simply saying “human shields” and then bombing family homes does not fulfill the legal obligations.

[wat0n]

Simply saying "human shields" is indeed not enough. Collateral damage to civilians must not be greater than the direct, concrete anticipated military advantage of the attack.

You tell me, exactly, how to use that standard. Even states don't agree how to apply it.

Even worse, the standard is based on what the attacker knew and not on what becomes known after the fact. It could be the case that an attack that doesn't kill many civilians yet ends the war (e.g. by killing the enemy's top commander) is still disproportionate, simply because the attacker was unaware it would end the war (e.g. available intel did not suggest the top commander was there).

At last, each attack must be analyzed on its own merits. Overall casualty counts are not useful because a string of proportionate attacks can still lead to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

It's not a very useful standard.

This is also not the only example of vague, inapplicable IHL provisions. There are even worse provisions, that in practice actually have the effect of making it more likely civilians will be killed, not less.

[QatzelOk]

...Genocide requires special intent...

Jared Kushner is inspired by the real estate potential of a post-genocide Gaza:

...“It’s a little bit of an unfortunate situation there, but from Israel’s perspective I would do my best to move the people out and then clean it up,” he added, using language some have suggested isn’t far removed from ethnic cleansing.

***

Kushner agreed that Israel possibly wouldn’t let Gazans return to the region after they were removed, adding, “I am not sure there is much left of Gaza at this point.”...

It's really interesting to note that this man is married into the family of what might be the next president of the USA. And that he is responsible for the investement portfolio of a few Gulf royals...

[Pants-of-dog]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the IDF and Israeli government are making any effort at all to avoid civilian casualties.

What is the military advantage gained by, for example, shooting people trying to access food from humanitarian assistance trucks?

What was the military gain from bombing family homes?

[wat0n]

Jared Kushner is inspired by the real estate potential of a post-genocide Gaza:

It's really interesting to note that this man is married into the family of what might be the next president of the USA. And that he is responsible for the investement portfolio of a few Gulf royals...

This is yet another example of misquoting, unsurprising coming from you.

Hint: Gaza could become a tourist attraction if the conflict ends.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the IDF and Israeli government are making any effort at all to avoid civilian casualties.

What is the military advantage gained by, for example, shooting people trying to access food from humanitarian assistance trucks?

You could ask Hamas why it shoots at those people. I would say it wants to have access to that food so it can hold for longer.

The only case where Israeli acknowledged soldiers shot at people trying to access food from humanitarian assistance trucks was one in which they said they were shot at first.

The IDF’s initial investigation found that some of the trucks managed to continue further north, where armed men reportedly opened fire at the convoy near Rimal and looted it.

Also, why would Israel even try to coordinate aid deliveries - putting its own soldiers at risk - if it had a genocidal intent?

What was the military gain from bombing family homes?

Which ones? The ones with Qassam fighters sleeping in?

The ones taken over by snipers or RPG operators?

[skinster]

human shields

More images of Palestinians used as human shields by the Israeli army have come out of Gaza this week.


In other news, wat0n can't stop shilling for genocide, I see. I feel quite bad for him that he's basically alone on that front..turns out most people hate genocide!

But, it is quite interesting to watch hasbara propagandists attempt to act serious in conversation and talk away genocide, when you know what they're about: