[Saeko]

And if he had been an Israeli citizen, the usual ghouls would have said he deserved to be murdered for collaborating with the occupation and would wish for his daughters to have been raped and murdered by the valiant resistance.

If he had been an Israeli citizen, he'd be the one holding the gun.

[wat0n]

63 is beyond the military age in Israel.

More nonsense, but the bigotry is telling.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

I thought Israel had relaxed restrictions on civilian firearms.

Israel's government is encouraging gun ownership by loosening the rules. Israel has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world, but some in the government are encouraging gun ownership since the Hamas attack on Oct. 7.

— NPR Jan. 10, 2024

Why is age a bar and military enrollment necessary for Israelis to be out and about holding a gun?

[Rich]

Its coming up to 57 years that Israel has been occupying the West Bank and Gaza. What ever blame may fall on Palestinians for provoking the 6 day war does not apply to the current Palestinian population, The large majority were not born in 1967, most of the rest were children, none held any position of authority. Many of the slave holders thought that Black Africans should at some point be freed, but they had to earn their freedom and citizenship over multiple generations. A lot of Zionists and their hypocritical western liberal enablers seem to take a similar attitude to Palestinians.

The establishment liberals say Israel has a right to defend its apartheid system. I simply disagree. The western establishment says Palestinians must earn the right to be treated as full citizens of a state. Again I just simply disagree. After 57 years why are we even talking about Israel taking back control of Gaza. After 57 years we should be talking about Israel giving up its control of the West Bank.

Whether Palestinians are given citizenship in their own state, given citizenship in existing Arab states or given citizenship in the Israeli state isn't 57 years enough to be denied proper citizenship of a proper state?

[wat0n]

@ingliz honestly, I'm not sure about what does that have to do here. David Ben Avraham was murdered by a soldier, not by a civilian.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

@Saeko made the point that an Israeli citizen is more likely to own a firearm than a Palestinian in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

You came back with your usual bullshit.

[wat0n]

@ingliz I don't think an Israeli civilian would be able to drive a tank on anyone.

This is your usual bullshit, and is of course used to justify mass rape.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Israeli citizens with guns in the OPT are issued military fatigues and given protection not shot by the IDF. Since 7 October, the UN Human Rights Office has documented dozens of cases of settlers wearing full or partial Israeli army uniforms and carrying army rifles, and harassing and attacking Palestinians.

[RealPolitic]

@ingliz

Strong states take what they can while weak states/people suffer what they must. Its the law of international relations.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Israeli citizens with guns in the OPT are issued military fatigues and given protection not shot by the IDF. Since 7 October, the UN Human Rights Office has documented dozens of cases of settlers wearing full or partial Israeli army uniforms and carrying army rifles, and harassing and attacking Palestinians.

...And yet David Ben Avraham was still murdered by a soldier in deployment, not by a settler.

More drivel to retrospectively justify mass rape.

[ingliz]

@RealPolitic

I understand that, but @wat0n has chosen to argue on some non-existent moral high ground, where he hasn't a leg to stand on, and we can take the piss.

[wat0n]

@ingliz it's not hard to have a higher moral ground than you, given your defense of mass rape and mass murder.

[ingliz]

I don't think an Israeli civilian would be able to drive a tank on anyone.

We have eyewitness testimony that says the IDF did.

a higher moral ground

How is the Israeli mass murder and rape spree more moral than anyone else's?

Israel has murdered and raped innocents at least 30 times more often than the Palestinians have in the last 6 months most likely many times more as the dead under the rubble haven't been counted.

[RealPolitic]

@ingliz

I understand that, but @wat0n has chosen to argue on some non-existent moral high ground, where he hasn't a leg to stand on, and we can take the piss.

You seem like an intelligent fellow. Yeah, in international relations there are no morals. There are only interests and shared interests. So, when two states or warring parties are in dispute with each other, its disingenuous to approach the other party from a position of morality. States or warring parties in disputes should approach other and discuss each others interests and come to a meeting of the minds on how to respect each others interests without harming each others interests. Morality doesn't factor into any of this.

[QatzelOk]

...The establishment liberals say Israel has a right to defend its apartheid system. I simply disagree. The western establishment says Palestinians must earn the right to be treated as full citizens of a state. Again I just simply disagree. ...

The Western media and Israel... are pretty well the same group of people. So this *group of people* will justify all the crimes of *their own family members* because these culturally-acceptable crimes are income-generating for the family.

And the racist division of different rights for different *races* in Israel... and the fact that Western media and the political class defends it... means that our own societies are still run by racism, even if our leaders *speak the language* of non-racism (which they learned to do through training).

[Rich]

@ingliz
You seem like an intelligent fellow. Yeah, in international relations there are no morals. There are only interests and shared interests. So, when two states ....

But that's the whole point here, there are not two states. If the Israelis had given the Palestinians a state and then they had attacked it would be different. If Gaza was part of Egypt and Egypt had attacked it would be different. If the Israelis had given Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank full Israeli citizenship and then Hamas had done this, then they could and should be arrested as criminals, but none of those cases apply.

In 1967 Nasser asked the peace keepers to leave the Sinai. In such circumstances Israel were perfectly entitled to make a preemptive strike. In my book its perfectly reasonable that they grabbed extra territory. What's not reasonable in my book, is denying people, their children and their grand children proper citizenship for over half a century.

[wat0n]

We have eyewitness testimony that says the IDF did.

Not sure about what is this meant to respond to.

How is the Israeli mass murder and rape spree more moral than anyone else's?

Israel has murdered and raped innocents at least 30 times more often than the Palestinians have in the last 6 months most likely many times more as the dead under the rubble haven't been counted.

Collateral damage is not, in fact, murder since it lacks intent. It is also not murder to kill combatants.

Allow me to remind you that no Palestinians alleged to have been raped by Israelis when Pramila Patten reached out to ask them about it.

Also allow me to remind you that you do in fact justify mass rape and mass murder and did so in this very thread. I even compiled it, and you did not deny it.

viewtopic.php?p=15297273#p15297273

So to see you trying to claim a moral high ground is hilarious.

[Pants-of-dog]

My argument is that the IDF would have known about the construction if the tunnel during construction.

During construction is when the large open air excavation would exist. It would be impossible to determine usage during construction since the tunnel would not be built and would not be being used at the time.

So, during construction, it is impossible to determine usage, no matter where your boots are.

[ingliz]

Not sure about what is this meant to respond to.

It was in response to your random comment,

"I don't think an Israeli civilian would be able to drive a tank on anyone."

viewtopic.php?p=15297273#p15297273

Nothing exists without cause, and this is not said to justify what happened; it just means something like it, some time, was inevitable.

Even the worm turns.

to claim a moral high ground

As to morality, I will leave that to philosophers. I am too busy taking the piss out of an idiot on the internet.

It passes the time.

[wat0n]

It was in response to your random comment,

"I don't think an Israeli civilian would be able to drive a tank on anyone."

How does it address this comment? I have yet to see Israeli civilians using tanks.

Nothing exists without cause, and this is not said to justify what happened; it just means something like it, some time, was inevitable.

Even the worm turns.

So you are, in fact, justifying the October 7 massacre.

And I say "justifying" because you would not then accept that Israeli policies can also be said to be an inevitable consequence of attacks against the region's Jews, indeed, attacks that predate the existence of Israel itself.

As to morality, I will leave that to philosophers. I am too busy taking the piss out of an idiot on the internet.

It passes the time.

Indeed, it passes the time to expose your stupidity and now dishonest pretense of having a moral high ground.

My argument is that the IDF would have known about the construction if the tunnel during construction.

During construction is when the large open air excavation would exist. It would be impossible to determine usage during construction since the tunnel would not be built and would not be being used at the time.

So, during construction, it is impossible to determine usage, no matter where your boots are.

Would Israel have been justified to have bombed the highway while the tunnel was being built, under this hypothesis which you have yet to actually prove? Even though its purpose was not known.

If you say no, then you're still talking nonsense.

And remember, you have yet to address that:

1) Hamas admitted it has a battalion in Nuseirat

2) A hostage was taken to Nuseirat