[JohnRawls]

Which is why I consider you an enemy and a traitor. I consider you a traitor to the western alliance, a traitor to democracy. you are an enemy of my nation, an enemy of our democracy and an enemy to all Buddhists and Hindus. You are a peddler of the most vile appeasement of Nationalist Socialist Settler Imperialist China and Muslim terrorist oppressor murderers.

The thing about Winston Churchill is anyone is free to invoke his name and he's not around to contradict them. but prior to WWI he correctly recognised that the rise of Germany was the greatest threat to the British Empire. In the latter part of the Second World War he recognised that Nazi and imperial Japanese defeat was now inevitable and it was the Soviet Union that going forward would be the greatest threat to the British empire, British power and British Liberal Democracy. I would like to think that if he were alive today he would be smart enough to recognise China and Muslims as our greatest external enemies.

How am I a National Socialist?

China is not the one starting wars yet, it might happen in the future but not yet at the very least so we need to give them a chance. It doesn't mean that their subsidized trade practices can be easily tolerated and won't get tariffed/blocked.

Muslims on the other hand is just a boogie man for racists mostly. Along with blacks I suppose. Black Muslims are like Freddie Krugger or something. Do not interpret this as though immigration doesn't cause problems, it does. Just it solves also a lot of problems at the same time hence why it exists irrelevant of why somebody is in charge. On top of the fact that immigration is a very net positive process for both Europe and US. And if you wanna say otherwise then how come US is a superpower now? Who built the US? Immigrants?

[Rich]

How am I a National Socialist?

I didn't say you were a Nationalist Socialist. I said you want to appease Nationalist Socialist China. I'm very glad for you that you Estonians got your freedom to build your own nation. I commiserate with you that you lost your independence in 1940. But I think a lot of Estonians along with many people in my own country have completely lost the plot over Russia and are failing to keep the bigger picture in mind.

In the same way that in the nineteen thirties many well meaning intellectuals in the West lost the plot over Nazi Germany and threw in their lot with the Soviet Union.

[Rugoz]

@Rich Time to take your pills.

[JohnRawls]

I didn't say you were a Nationalist Socialist. I said you want to appease Nationalist Socialist China. I'm very glad for you that you Estonians got your freedom to build your own nation. I commiserate with you that you lost your independence in 1940. But I think a lot of Estonians along with many people in my own country have completely lost the plot over Russia and are failing to keep the bigger picture in mind.

In the same way that in the nineteen thirties many well meaning intellectuals in the West lost the plot over Nazi Germany and threw in their lot with the Soviet Union.

We are far more sane in this regard than most. Russia is waging a war against Democracy, like literal war while China is not. Get your priorities straight. Its not like we like CCP led China and its pretty redicilous calling me an appeaser when most pro-China crowd here calls me some pretty horrible and bad stuff for critisizing China. But you have to give China also a chance to a certain degree since they have not started any wars yet for no reason.

[Rich]

Nice. Good idea. Would require the West and China to divide Russia in to two separate states and occupy it for some time while hanging all of the main functionaries of the regime. I am down for that.

Here I'll quote again what you said. You'd like us to ally with China to carve up Russia. Such a result would leave National Socialist China in an incredibly powerful position.

@Rugoz Seems like you're the one in need of medication. You two have made your position clear. let me make mine. In the very unlikely event that it comes to war between Russia and India on the one hand and China and the West on the other I will side with India.

[JohnRawls]

Here I'll quote again what you said. You'd like us to ally with China to carve up Russia. Such a result would leave National Socialist China in an incredibly powerful position.

@Rugoz Seems like you're the one in need of medication. You two have made your position clear. let me make mine. In the very unlikely event that it comes to war between Russia and India on the one hand and China and the West on the other I will side with India.

It was a hypothetical first of all. Second of all, it is still better than having a war now and people dying for no reason. Third of all, in this case we still get a better deal, we actually get the developed part of Russia where all the people live.

[late]

So I persume you want the weakman and drunkard Boris Jeltzin back ? The one that could get pushed around so nicely by the west.

And I assume you just greatly enjoy the rule of the USA by the weakman Biden, with everthing he touches turning into garbage.

And shiver in fear that strongmans of the past of the USA, like for example Abraham Lincoln or John F. Kennedy, may ever return.

There is so much wrong with that, I could fill a book replying.

We wanted Russia to become a Modern country. That includes Rule of Law, a good market economy, and some sort of representative democracy.

One of the many problems that came up was that Russians would not accept contracts. To them, a contract was just another opportunity to extract a bribe, or in some way take advantage of the situation. Like the way Putin stole that oil company, sold it for $17, and gets kickbacks to this day.

Sad to say, most of that never happened, and some of what progress that had been made is coming undone. It's hard to say how bad it is, because the quality of information coming out of Russia is quite poor.

[litwin]

oops, Vice-president of Lukoil Vitaly Robertus committed "suicide " in his office. tea or window ?
This is the second Lukoil executive to die "suddenly" in the past month. Could it be a hostile government takeover or a new coup (a la Wagner´s one) is on the way ?

[JohnRawls]

Aha.

So I persume you want the weakman and drunkard Boris Jeltzin back ? The one that could get pushed around so nicely by the west.

And I assume you just greatly enjoy the rule of the USA by the weakman Biden, with everthing he touches turning into garbage.

And shiver in fear that strongmans of the past of the USA, like for example Abraham Lincoln or John F. Kennedy, may ever return.

You live in a society built by Yeltsin reformists and the prosperity under Putin were done by Yeltsin team that subsequently got fired in 2001/2002 and the benefits of those reforms survived until 2007/2008 basically. Yes, the early 90s reforms were done incorrectly which was downright bad. If you read the books and listen to old interviews, the main point was to get rid of communism and not really economy based in this regard. But the later reforms of the 90s were good and produced the growth until somewhere up to 2007/2008 where further reforms were needed.

What did Putin do for Russia? He didn't reform the economy. He monopolized the industry in to state run or semi-state owned monopolies like Gazprom and so on. Or given large chunks of private businesses to his friends and this is getting far worse now with the war. The reality is that monopolization is the one that increases inequality in the country and also makes economic progress sluggish and the country more corrupt while destroying any semblence of rule of law that is left which is not much honestly. Not all Oligarchs were incompetent by the way. Literately there are and were good business man Oligarchs in Russia. Khodorkovsky comes to mind as one of them who actually attracted investment and went full international with the company but then Putin jailed him and took the company away. Even nowadays there were businessman that tried to do the same but with the war, they have been removed or silenced. Tinkov was more or less okay now he is not in Russia. Galitsky was okay and probably one of the few that is still in Russia trying to keep his mouth shut. Volozh is not in Russia anymore. Durov has been driven out a long time ago. Chichvarkin also has been driven out a long time ago.

Reality is a bit harsh that the fall of Soviet Union was hard for all. But some that actually went the liberal democratic way already surpassed Portugal, Greece and on the level of Spain and pushing the heels on Italy and others(GDP per capita wise nominal). While Russia with all its resources and money is nowhere, literally at the bottom of the barrel well-being and prosperity wise.

So tell us, how is Yeltsin worse than Putin? Sure, he did have his fair share of mistakes but you are literally living off the prosperity that Yeltsins reforms created. What did Putin ever do for your prosperity? What actual good reforms has he ever done when it comes to economy?

[litwin]

Gen. Ben Hodges (@General_Ben) warns that Pootin is ONLY provoked by weakness

[paeng]

There is so much wrong with that, I could fill a book replying.

We wanted Russia to become a Modern country. That includes Rule of Law, a good market economy, and some sort of representative democracy.

One of the many problems that came up was that Russians would not accept contracts. To them, a contract was just another opportunity to extract a bribe, or in some way take advantage of the situation. Like the way Putin stole that oil company, sold it for $17, and gets kickbacks to this day.

Sad to say, most of that never happened, and some of what progress that had been made is coming undone. It's hard to say how bad it is, because the quality of information coming out of Russia is quite poor.

The real goal is to follow the U.S.-led rule of law and international financial system. That's why the same U.S. has been going against its own beliefs for decades.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/

Without neoconservatism and neoliberalism, others would be less dependent on the dollar, and that would end the heavy borrowing and spending binge:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163 ... rs-of-debt

Russia, China, and others can see through that, which is why they've been answering back.

[paeng]

Here I'll quote again what you said. You'd like us to ally with China to carve up Russia. Such a result would leave National Socialist China in an incredibly powerful position.

@Rugoz Seems like you're the one in need of medication. You two have made your position clear. let me make mine. In the very unlikely event that it comes to war between Russia and India on the one hand and China and the West on the other I will side with India.

The U.S. has been playing both sides for some time, e.g., working with Russia over Afghanistan, then going against Russia over Syria, working with China over Taiwan and working against China over Taiwan, arming Israel but also arming Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan, deals with India but also with Pakistan, making deals with all sorts of regimes in South America, Asia, the Middle East, etc., over oil, minerals, locations for military installations, etc.

I think it even threatened India once over relations with the Soviets, and much later criticized Japan for trying to buy oil from Iran.

It's similar to what they were doing to former Soviet Republics:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/01/18 ... r-ukraine/

[paeng]

Imperialism is when you exploit other countries.

First of all, to Russia, Ukraine is NOT "another country". Its literally the core homeland, where the Rus once originated. Until 1991, for over 300 years, it was part of Russia. No less than 30% of the citizen of Ukraine speak russian as their mother tongue; in east Ukraine, they are the majority, and many of them, including Zelensky, even outright identify as russians, not ukrainians.

Russia and Ukraine are closer than for example Germany and Austia.

Russia has already raised productivity in Crimea to the level of Russia, has already promised to do the same to the four new regions - and I have no reason to doubt they want to do it there, too - and if they take over any other part of Ukraine - which I think is likely to happen - I also believe they would do build those parts up, too.

So no, I dont see this as imperialism. Russias motive is simply to protect their people - ethnic russians - from being targeted by ukrainian nazis. Permanently. Since Ukriane apparently cant be trusted with that.


I was recently quite shocked that Niger until their recent sold their uranium to France for Eurocents per kilogram. This is an example of imperalism. This is exploitation. Niger now sells their uranium on the international market for 200 euros per kilogram, which is the usual price, and hopefully this will help Niger to build a brighter future.

Really this claim of russian imperialism is another example of the west thinking that other people think like they do. For the west, especially the Biden administration, is still imperalistic. So why wouldnt Russia, China, and other BRICS states ?

I think several sources mentioned similar, i.e., the people of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are the "Rus".

Meanwhile, the U.S. is intent on encirclement of its rivals, which is why some former NATO commanders even want to expand to Asia:

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeas ... -commander

Finally, influence over weak countries to gain access to natural resources has been known for decades. Many in the West are likely surprised by this because mainstream media tend to focus on things that would validate what their readers want to see.

[Rugoz]

I think several sources mentioned similar, i.e., the people of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are the "Rus".

The people of Ukraine don't want to be ruled by the corrupt Mafia regime in Moscow, neither do Belarusians (Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya won that election).

Meanwhile, the U.S. is intent on encirclement of its rivals, which is why some former NATO commanders even want to expand to Asia:

If Russia and China don't want to be "encircled", maybe they should be less threatening to their neighbors. All the countries in Eastern Europe WANTED to join NATO. The countries NATO rejected at the time, namely Ukraine and Georgia, were invaded. Taiwan wouldn't mind a closer relationship with the mainland for sure if Xi wasn't intent on destroying their way of life. Etc.

[late]

The real goal is to follow the U.S.-led rule of law and international financial system. That's why the same U.S. has been going against its own beliefs for decades.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/

Without neoconservatism and neoliberalism, others would be less dependent on the dollar, and that would end the heavy borrowing and spending binge:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163 ... rs-of-debt

Russia, China, and others can see through that, which is why they've been answering back.

Both are true.

Europe had been sticking pointy things into each other for millennia. That has stopped.

But it's also true that the old world, and the old ways, didn't disappear.

Not impressed by "Deep Value Guy".

[litwin]

WHAT do THEY put in the drones ?

[litwin]

[QatzelOk]

I think the main things people want right now from political parties is:

1. Sovereignty. That means independence from the empire (i.e. the USA) and the freedom to choose your own way. This is especially strong here in the EU. ...

Sovereignty for Ukraine is also important. And NATO took away its sovereignty in 2014 by overthrowing its government. In poor countries like this one, it's too easy for oligarchs to buy these state-destroying events.

The Nordstream pipeline sabotage has made it clear that to the US elites, the EU is merely colonies.

And let's not forget the sabotage of Ukraine's election in 2014.

...you can announce you will blow up their energy structure, do it, boast about it, and then blame the russians for the attack just fine. And current governments in general have amazingly poor reactions to this.

Look at how our Western governments "reacted" to the overthrow of the Ukraine government in 2014. They applauded it, like they have been applauding Israel's apartheid government and non-stop violence against native Palestinians.

2. Care for the needs of regular people.

If a government *cares* too much for the needs of its regular people (like Aristide did in Haiti before being kidnapped and couped by the West...)... this government risks being overthrown by a Western-oligarch-financed coup.

This means that having created rich oligarchs, the West has eliminated personal and national sovereignty. This is another global crime of the rich and their "freedom to abuse other people and species."

***

We wanted Russia to become a Modern country.

Who is "we" in this sentence?

Is it the same "we" that thought 500,000 dead Iraqi children was worth it?

Or is it the fake "we" that oligarch propaganda uses to fool people into thinking their is some kind of "collective good" being served by all their atrocities?

[late]

Sovereignty for Ukraine is also important. And NATO took away its sovereignty in 2014 by overthrowing its government. In poor countries like this one, it's too easy for oligarchs to buy these state-destroying events.



And let's not forget the sabotage of Ukraine's election in 2014.


Look at how our Western governments "reacted" to the overthrow of the Ukraine government in 2014. They applauded it, like they have been applauding Israel's apartheid government and non-stop violence against native Palestinians.


If a government *cares* too much for the needs of its regular people (like Aristide did in Haiti before being kidnapped and couped by the West...)... this government risks being overthrown by a Western-oligarch-financed coup.

This means that having created rich oligarchs, the West has eliminated personal and national sovereignty. This is another global crime of the rich and their "freedom to abuse other people and species."

You are parroting Russian propaganda again.

[QatzelOk]

You are parroting Russian propaganda again.

Expressions like "parroting Russian propaganda" don't negate what acutally happened. Mass media may have fooled you into thinking that expressions like this one have value.

litwin may actually provide a better example of what a parrot can do with a wall of repitition.

Hating Russia really, really hard... is not a replacement for political thought or lucid analysis. In fact, hating is the opposite of thinking, and this thread is full of the opposite of thinking. The Western media is full of the opposite of thinking, at the moment, and that's a bad sign for its future.
.