Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 847 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Rancid
#15312301
QatzelOk wrote:The printing of money makes Western funding bottomless.

That's not really it, because if this were true, then all nations could just print forever. The reason the west can print more is simply because its economies are stronger and most all, more reliable.
#15312317
► Show Spoiler


@RealPolitic the entire premise of Might is Right that rules the world today is primitive and counterproductive.

It is the reality though, I do think it is the reality. But it is far from the best organizational and societal structure that the human world of ideas and thoughts and actions is capable of producing from its infinite creative powers. That is my thought on that. We can do way better than what we are stuck with currently.

The Unaligned Movement was a Movement that Fidel Castro chaired precisely over this issue of smaller nations having the threat of being invaded by stronger ones and not being able to prevent it. Caught in a sandwich.

It has failed mostly because of pressure brought to bear on it from the top powerful nations with nukes not wanting the smaller nations without nukes to be able to defend themselves from manipulations.

The solution is a solidarity movement that is very strong with clear guidelines and clear procedures and an ability to enforce consequences internationally on the stronger nations that has power to limit them due to a lot of small nations working as one....becomes a big nation in power....many small, all together in solidarity....counterbalances the few big ones...over time this can be done.

But? It requires multipolarity first. Which is starting to emerge in a nascent form.

Some history on the Unaligned Movement in the UN:



Many nations agreed that they hated imperialism and colonialism. And started to think of ways on how to combat it.



So there are 120 nations out of almost 200 that are unaligned.



The next step is to create enforcement of consequences for the big dog nations who want to impose their abusive crap on the rest of the world. A really hard consequence for invading little countries, topping democratically elected leaders and doing fake news and crap propaganda to cover your ass. Denying invaded territories political rights, voting rights or any voice that is scrutinized by the rest of the nations in open debates in the UN in NYC on the open floor.

There has to be economic, and diplomatic and legal consequences and FINES on nations that invade, subjugate and overthrow and manipulate using the power of their MIC to force their will on the nations who are not in agreement.

That is the next step. It has not been explored enough. But it will happen over time. The conditions for that have to happen. It means that no one superpower exists. But various exists and then the back and forth and back and forth....until there is an opening.

That is the answer. It might take a very long time. It will not be in my lifetime RealPolitic.
#15312322
Rancid wrote:That's not really it, because if this were true, then all nations could just print forever. The reason the west can print more is simply because its economies are stronger and most all, more reliable.

You typed this into the Internet while knowing that it is simply untrue.

The Age of Lies is upon us.

Hide the Truth in the bomb shelter!
User avatar
By Rancid
#15312325
QatzelOk wrote:You typed this into the Internet while knowing that it is simply untrue.

The Age of Lies is upon us.

Hide the Truth in the bomb shelter!


Ok, so why can no one other than the west not print as much money?
#15312326
Rancid wrote:Ok, so why can no one other than the west not print as much money?


When countries like Libya or Iraq start talking about "using money other than U.S. dollars," they tend to be destroyed by U.S. dollar-backed terror organizations like NATO and Israel.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15312327
QatzelOk wrote:When countries like Libya or Iraq start talking about "using money other than U.S. dollars," they tend to be destroyed by U.S. dollar-backed terror organizations like NATO and Israel.


Don't most nations use money that isn't the dollar?

Anyway, the focus on the currency itself is the mistake. You should be looking at how people invest globally, and where they are investing, and the reasons they are investing in those areas. That has more to do with it than this magical "dollar mafia" or whatever. There is plenty to argue about the American Empire, but this whole dollar thing is like the more ridiculous of them. Especially when there are SOOO many other valid complaints/issues/criticisms of the American empire.
#15312329
Rancid wrote:Ok, so why can no one other than the west not print as much money?


Not the west, the US, the rest of the west enjoyed some of the privileges offered by the dollar being a reserve currency as long as the US and Europe coordinate. Biden does not coordinate financial and monetary policy with Europe anymore and that is why Europe and the US almost got into a trade war when Biden announced the Inflation Scheme and things still are very tense.

Several articles online telling you this, that Europe supporting the US makes zero sense when the US is throwing European industry to the dogs and is riding all the dollar reserve currency benefits for itself throwing all our economies into a recession to boost the US economy.

This is also the same reason why the US started the war in Ukraine to turn all of Europe into an irrelevant vassal.

Also something several US analysts tell you openly, that Europe is simply not important enough anymore, that Asia matters now and so Europe is no longer ally-level priority but more like colony-level priority, same priority level the Middle-East has been for the past couple of centuries.
#15312331
It has nothing to do with economic power, otherwise China could print money now. They cant.

Only the USA can print money ad infinum. Thats because the US dollar is both the national currency AND the world currency. Since the US dollar is the world currency, its value is guaranteed.

This is a core misdesign of how world trade was organized after WW2. Keynes wanted instead a specialized world currency that would not also serve as a national currency and would thus not give special priviledges to the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor

No other currency has this property. If you print to much of any other currency, it will fall in value. That means too many people will try to convert this currency into other currencies (in order to buy from other countries).

And yes, this concept is now failing.

Originally it was designed such that the dollar was backed by gold. Then, after France actually demanded the gold it was due, they changed it in the 1970s such that Saudi Arabia sold their oil exclusively for US dollar. This gets called the "petrodollar" concept. The whole event is called "the biggest bank heist of all times" by some economists.

It was kind of unavoidable though. Germany alone could have demanded more gold than was in existence at that point. Of course the USA has accumulated debt at much higher rates ever since.

Saudi Arabia is now selling their oil for other currencies, too, so the petrodollar has ended and the US dollar loses its special status.

I strongly hope that the Bancor will now get introduced, after all.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15312335
Oh dear. :knife:

The Eurozone monetary base (M0) relative to Eurozone GDP is larger than the US monetary base relative to US GDP.

So much for "only the USA can print money ad infinum". :roll:
#15312336
Expectedly, while Rugoz is reading he is having a fit of outrage as US/EU antithesis in interests is becoming far too obvious to ignore, but cannot really think of an argument so after turning boiling red, comes in, posts a non-sensical sentence and then buggers off. Hopes some of the poo he threw may stick on the windshield.
By late
#15312337
It was nice seeing Keynes brought into the discussion. Nicely done..

The dominant empire winds up being the reserve currency. One way of looking at this is that Nixon killed the heart of the Bretton Woods agreements.

Backing dollars with gold was going to end, there isn't enough gold. But the Bretton Woods system was designed top punish countries that ran a large debt. The French did a run on our gold, and that pushed Nixon into taking us off gold prematurely.

That also meant we could use reserve status to screw other countries.

When we devalue the dollar, foreign investments lose that amount of value.

The problem is, as we are the safest bet, investing here still makes sense (if perhaps less so than before).

Trust plays a big role here, and our flip flopping in Ukraine undermines that trust.

About now you are prob thinking that our large debt doesn't help. Problem is, when the income tax was started it was only for the rich. Rich Rightys have been attacking that for close to half a century. And now the rich don't pay their fair share..

Which is why we have such large deficits, and why so much in the country no longer works the way it should.

It is short sighted and astronomically foolish.
#15312344
noemon wrote:Not the west, the US, the rest of the west enjoyed some of the privileges offered by the dollar being a reserve currency as long as the US and Europe coordinate. Biden does not coordinate financial and monetary policy with Europe anymore and that is why Europe and the US almost got into a trade war when Biden announced the Inflation Scheme and things still are very tense.

Several articles online telling you this, that Europe supporting the US makes zero sense when the US is throwing European industry to the dogs and is riding all the dollar reserve currency benefits for itself throwing all our economies into a recession to boost the US economy.

This is also the same reason why the US started the war in Ukraine to turn all of Europe into an irrelevant vassal.

Also something several US analysts tell you openly, that Europe is simply not important enough anymore, that Asia matters now and so Europe is no longer ally-level priority but more like colony-level priority, same priority level the Middle-East has been for the past couple of centuries.


This is a great analysis really.

It goes to show how fickle all these let us be friends and allies agreements turn out to be in the world.

You are dealing with the reality of nation-states in power positions scheming constantly to retain their positions.

What are the Europeans going to do about this by the way? That is interesting to me.
By late
#15312348
Tainari88 wrote:
What are the Europeans going to do about this by the way? That is interesting to me.



That is a great question with a complicated answer.

It would require more work than I feel like to doing, but I can get you started. We are simply different from Europe. Our energy prices are lower, and our main trading partners are Mexico and Canada. Which means we are less dependent on exports to places like China, which has reduced imports of nonessential goods.

There is an election coming, and Biden has been fighting the impression people have that this could have been handled better. That would be insane, if it was an actual opinion, but it's just the suspicious and reactionary nature of American voters. So Biden is limited in what he can do to help Europe. Europe is going through a tough time, most of which is not our fault (demographic problems and rising costs) so it's not clear to me what we could do that would have a big impact.

Anyway, here's Zeihan:

#15312356
noemon wrote:
Not the west, the US, the rest of the west enjoyed some of the privileges offered by the dollar being a reserve currency as long as the US and Europe coordinate. Biden does not coordinate financial and monetary policy with Europe anymore and that is why Europe and the US almost got into a trade war when Biden announced the Inflation Scheme and things still are very tense.

Several articles online telling you this, that Europe supporting the US makes zero sense when the US is throwing European industry to the dogs and is riding all the dollar reserve currency benefits for itself throwing all our economies into a recession to boost the US economy.

This is also the same reason why the US started the war in Ukraine to turn all of Europe into an irrelevant vassal.

Also something several US analysts tell you openly, that Europe is simply not important enough anymore, that Asia matters now and so Europe is no longer ally-level priority but more like colony-level priority, same priority level the Middle-East has been for the past couple of centuries.


Why is Europe supporting Ukraine then?
#15312358
late wrote:That is a great question with a complicated answer.

It would require more work than I feel like to doing, but I can get you started. We are simply different from Europe. Our energy prices are lower, and our main trading partners are Mexico and Canada. Which means we are less dependent on exports to places like China, which has reduced imports of nonessential goods.

There is an election coming, and Biden has been fighting the impression people have that this could have been handled better. That would be insane, if it was an actual opinion, but it's just the suspicious and reactionary nature of American voters. So Biden is limited in what he can do to help Europe. Europe is going through a tough time, most of which is not our fault (demographic problems and rising costs) so it's not clear to me what we could do that would have a big impact.

Anyway, here's Zeihan:



How long is Ukraine going to be able to effectively grind away at this war without having a total economic collapse?
By late
#15312362
Tainari88 wrote:
How long is Ukraine going to be able to effectively grind away at this war without having a total economic collapse?



It's already had an economic collapse.

It's running low on manpower..

But since they see this as a do or die moment, they can keep going, if we keep supplies coming. Did you watch the video? Zeihan thinks some countries will be sending troops as well as supplies. Which tells me the stalemate will come to an end, one way or the other.
User avatar
By litwin
#15312364
Tainari88 wrote:How long is Ukraine going to be able to effectively grind away at this war without having a total economic collapse?

U. IS NOT ALONG and what choice do we have ?

#15312387
Rancid wrote:Ok, so why can no one other than the west not print as much money?


I have pondered this a bit and the answer that I usually come to is rather idealistic and naive. First of all, it simply boils to a simple world "Trust" in the Western currencies or economies. But then it begs the question, why the hell everyone trusts our economies and currencies instead of somebody else and here comes the naive/idealistic part.

Over the centuries we have accumulated this reputation of being "greedy" so to speak, be it in the imperealist times or beyond that. Even Old Man Karl sort of mentioned that we will sell the communists the rope that they will use to hang us. But since somewhere after WW2 we have transitioned to be more pacifistic and even more so after the Cold War that "greed" even further transitioned in to sort of benevolent greed that can be trusted to prioritise the economic outcomes of our people and general society above war, conflict, emotions etc

I know this is an answer that most won't accept since its naive and idealistic and it portrays the evil "Western Capitalism" in a sort of good light but I just don't know what the other answer can be. Its just that over a long period we have done rational decisions when it comes to the economy and already were perceived "greedy but rational and hard working" at the start especially if you read old chronicles or memoires from travelers lets say from early Japan opening up or China opening up back in the 19th century. But then after WW2 we somehow decided that it is nuts fighting among ourselves and also time to be a bit more pacifist and just trade especially after the Cold War. May be Nukes had something to do with it. Sort of like, who do you trust more to keep your money and wealth? Russia? China? Iran? Saudi Arabia? I can see plenty of reasons why people choose European Union or US instead of the named countries. Heck even now, Europe and US are kinda wanting to follow the general legal civic law process of compensation and restitution when it comes to Russia and the war of Ukraine/Rebuilding of Ukraine which is mind boggling. China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc would just confiscate everything which is what Russia essentially is doing right now to fund the war a bit.
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