[Saeko]

Agree, but Israel could have easily exterminated all Palestinians years and years ago. Something stopped them from doing that.

Not without becoming a completely isolated pariah state. They needed to use the boiling frog strategy and maintain plausible deniability. They deviated from this approach recently, and now we're seeing the results.

Anyway, so my question to you is, should we be cheering on more and more Oct 7th type attacks in Israel? Would that solve this in the way you suggested?

Wrong question. What we need to do is prevent both sides from perpetrating atrocities against each other. The only way to do that is to fully recognize the human rights of Palestinians.

[Pants-of-dog]

Of course, and I'm not talking about Hamas or the IDF. I'm precisely talking about those in the west taking a hardline side between those two groups. Two sides of the same wacko coin. Hence, the left-right point is in fact relevant to my comments.

Even in North America, the people defending the war are wealthy donors, mainstream politicians, and others who are not part of the far right or fat left.

And while some individuals are harassing Jews and using the war as a pretext, this does not seem specific to the far left. People from all walks of life are doing it

[Rancid]

Wrong question. What we need to do is prevent both sides from perpetrating atrocities against each other. The only way to do that is to fully recognize the human rights of Palestinians.

Agree.

People are responding to me, because I called the far left wacko for supporting and cheering Oct 7th. That's all.

[Rancid]

Even in North America, the people defending the war are wealthy donors, mainstream politicians, and others who are not part of the far right or fat left.

And while some individuals are harassing Jews and using the war as a pretext, this does not seem specific to the far left. People from all walks of life are doing it

Is the solution to support more Oct 7ths? If your answer is no, then you are not who I'm referring to.

So maybe you guys aren't so far left. I feel like I'm getting this weird snap back for calling far leftist wackos.

I don't see supporting Palestine as automatically making someone far left.

[Istanbuller]

It is pleasurable to see US university students stand with Palestine against the US government. So proud of them.

Standing with the weak and oppressed should be a must. If you claim to be a good person, then you should do this.

[wat0n]

Though you accuse many people ("leftists") of having a fondness for rape and murder and nose-picking, you yourself are really using the logic of a rapist in this above quote.

"They have Hamas, we will kill them. As simple as that."

A fast-talking rapist might blame "her red dress" on the reason they raped a woman. "As long as she wears that red dress, she's gonna get raped. Simple as that."

Neither the red dress... nor the particular party ruling Gaza... provide a reason to commit rape or genocide... as you are suggesting they do.

Hamas does not want to negotiate a peace treaty with Israel, even now the talk is about a "permanent ceasefire", which is not peace even if it sounds like it.

Leftists forget about this basic fact, and then use it along with their own schizo conspiracy theories (e.g. "slow motion genocide" that consists in the Palestinian population growing faster than Israel's) to justify the October 7 massacre and everything that happened in it, including the rapes, as you can see in this forum (and on Twitter).

[Pants-of-dog]

Is the solution to support more Oct 7ths? If your answer is no, then you are not who I'm referring to.

So maybe you guys aren't so far left. I feel like I'm getting this weird snap back for calling far leftist wackos.

I don't see supporting Palestine as automatically making someone far left.

The far left does not want another October 7. No one does, as far as I can tell.

There is a group trying to bring about the same conditions that caused October 7, and those are the centrists trying to maintain the status quo. Just like they caused the last one: by maintaining a situation of Apartheid, settler colonialism, and slow genocide.

[wat0n]

The far left does not want another October 7. No one does, as far as I can tell.

These guys disagree

There is a group trying to bring about the same conditions that caused October 7, and those are the centrists trying to maintain the status quo. Just like they caused the last one: by maintaining a situation of Apartheid, settler colonialism, and slow genocide.

And more justifications.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is boring to have this discussion be about how victimized some forum members feel when they see a tweet.

No one seems to disagree that the centrists want to maintain the same conditions that led to October 7.

Nor does anyone disagree that theses students are trying to protest those same conditions that led to October 7.

At this point, it seems like the far left (if that is how we are describing protesters) are the only ones agitating for a solution that will not cause another October 7.

[Rancid]

The far left does not want another October 7. No one does, as far as I can tell.

THere's lots of giddy-ness and support around it. I think skinster was rooting it on at one point.

[wat0n]

It is boring to have this discussion be about how victimized some forum members feel when they see a tweet.

I don't feel "victimized" by the tweet, it just has footage showing you're wrong.

Thing is, you don't care because you do in fact agree with the sentiment but you are not honest enough to admit it. Hence why you say nonsense like:

No one seems to disagree that the centrists want to maintain the same conditions that led to October 7.

Nor does anyone disagree that theses students are trying to protest those same conditions that led to October 7.

At this point, it seems like the far left (if that is how we are describing protesters) are the only ones agitating for a solution that will not cause another October 7.

If these guys were right wing white supremacists you would say they obviously agree with October 7, and use it as proof of how racist Americans are.

[Tainari88]

@wat0n who the hell in their right mind could defend what happened on October 7th? Most of the people taken hostages were just living peacefully in kibbutzs or in their homes and most were from the Left and centrists and apolitical people in general trying to live their lives. Families.

It was a deliberate attack from Hamas and they must have known what the implications were.

The entire history of Hamas and the IDF and so on is complicated. But I can tell you that having a far Right Netanyahu government dealing with a response was going to be very bad.

The reality though is that Netanyahu wants to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. It is obvious at this point.

You can say they are embedding in hospitals nd schools and this or that. Even if they were, the reality is you have to take precautions and airlift all the patients out of there, and get the babies incubators, feed people, bring in water, fuel, turn on energy. You have to do a very tough job that is about intelligence and being precise about who is a terrorist and who is just an ordinary Palestinian. If you have no tolerance for that and just want to slaughter Palestinians wholesale, including doctors, and nurses, teachers and ambulance drivers and EMTs and babies and children, and women and old people and just people that have nothing to do with the violence at all? You are committing war crimes.

You got to take responsibility for cutting off medicine, water, food, and electricity and fuel. Bombing out the vast majority of homes and displacing millions of people. Throwing them into chaos.

You got to deal with universal human rights. You have to. No two ways about it.

You can't have one set of human rights that respect the rights of your ethnic group, and another set that excludes or disrespects the rights of another ethnic group.

That is what Jim Crow was about for years in the USA and what the Apartheid government was about in South Africa.

It does not work wat0n.

You have to be fair and just with EVERYONE.

Who do I dislike? I will be honest as can be. I really despise authoritarian, racist, classist, snobby, entitled, lying and scheming politicians and wealthy plutocrats from the Right. I really despise them. I mean gut visceral reactions of dislike that is intense for them. But if someone told me I had the power to blow them all up and kill them all and their children and their families and their spouses and their x or y? Would I do it to get revenge? NO. Never. Why? Because I firmly believe that you can't kill off a political ideology. You can't. If it is not them it will be another human group thinking the same way. Thinking you can murder your way out of differences in politics is for fools. People with no wisdom.

You can't change that mentality of theirs with hate or dislike or violence. You change it by changing YOURSELF. Serving your cause with honor and dedication, and being consistent and true to your own political and ethical beliefs. You work hard for your principles. And if you have enough of agreement to get voted in or to get a political movement that finally is able to take control with the consent of the majority? You do not waste your time on hating the opposition. You do such an excellent job that people remember your self sacrifice and your dedication and your group's good works. And you make a difference.

They will have to move a little towards your spectrum. A little tiny movement towards the ones who did that kind of humane political work.

In the end, hate only begets more hate. Love begets more love. And in the end you should not dedicate your energy to something that is unproductive. Hatred and resentment and anger and destruction are the path of last resort for a society that has allowed way too much conflict and very little resolution or solutions.

Most criminals and gangsters do not really change their mentalities. They only run out of steam. They get tired.

It is tiring worrying about killing others all the time and being fearful of the consequences. Wars end not because the hate they feel for the competition goes away? But because people get tired of the energy it takes to hate so much and to live in chaos. They let go of it because peace is far more livable and far more stable and people prefer it over many years of having to live with the opposite of it.

[Pants-of-dog]

THere's lots of giddy-ness and support around it. I think skinster was rooting it on at one point. :?:

There is a difference between seeing the October 7 attack as legitimate resistance and wishing for it to happen again.

For example, I see the attack as a reaction to Israeli occupation that will happen again in the future unless structural changes occur to the relationship between Israel and it's occupied territories. Yet this has been portrayed as support for the October 7 attack.

[wat0n]

@wat0n who the hell in their right mind could defend what happened on October 7th? Most of the people taken hostages were just living peacefully in kibbutzs or in their homes and most were from the Left and centrists and apolitical people in general trying to live their lives. Families.

It was a deliberate attack from Hamas and they must have known what the implications were.

Even here, in PoFo you find people who support the attack. So can you among the leftist pro-Palestine protesters, including college students and academics... See the video I posted above for one such example.

The entire history of Hamas and the IDF and so on is complicated. But I can tell you that having a far Right Netanyahu government dealing with a response was going to be very bad.

The reality though is that Netanyahu wants to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. It is obvious at this point.

You can say they are embedding in hospitals nd schools and this or that. Even if they were, the reality is you have to take precautions and airlift all the patients out of there, and get the babies incubators, feed people, bring in water, fuel, turn on energy. You have to do a very tough job that is about intelligence and being precise about who is a terrorist and who is just an ordinary Palestinian. If you have no tolerance for that and just want to slaughter Palestinians wholesale, including doctors, and nurses, teachers and ambulance drivers and EMTs and babies and children, and women and old people and just people that have nothing to do with the violence at all? You are committing war crimes.

You got to take responsibility for cutting off medicine, water, food, and electricity and fuel. Bombing out the vast majority of homes and displacing millions of people. Throwing them into chaos.

This is easier said than done, though. Hamas and other actors could perfectly try to impede such civilian flight. It's a common tactic among these groups, when the US and Iraq fought ISIS to end its rule over Mosul ISIS would shoot at civilians trying to flee. Other times, some ISIS fighters would dress as civilians and then set off a suicide vest...

You got to deal with universal human rights. You have to. No two ways about it.

You can't have one set of human rights that respect the rights of your ethnic group, and another set that excludes or disrespects the rights of another ethnic group.

That is what Jim Crow was about for years in the USA and what the Apartheid government was about in South Africa.

It does not work wat0n.

You have to be fair and just with EVERYONE.

Who do I dislike? I will be honest as can be. I really despise authoritarian, racist, classist, snobby, entitled, lying and scheming politicians and wealthy plutocrats from the Right. I really despise them. I mean gut visceral reactions of dislike that is intense for them. But if someone told me I had the power to blow them all up and kill them all and their children and their families and their spouses and their x or y? Would I do it to get revenge? NO. Never. Why? Because I firmly believe that you can't kill off a political ideology. You can't. If it is not them it will be another human group thinking the same way. Thinking you can murder your way out of differences in politics is for fools. People with no wisdom.

You can't change that mentality of theirs with hate or dislike or violence. You change it by changing YOURSELF. Serving your cause with honor and dedication, and being consistent and true to your own political and ethical beliefs. You work hard for your principles. And if you have enough of agreement to get voted in or to get a political movement that finally is able to take control with the consent of the majority? You do not waste your time on hating the opposition. You do such an excellent job that people remember your self sacrifice and your dedication and your group's good works. And you make a difference.

They will have to move a little towards your spectrum. A little tiny movement towards the ones who did that kind of humane political work.

In the end, hate only begets more hate. Love begets more love. And in the end you should not dedicate your energy to something that is unproductive. Hatred and resentment and anger and destruction are the path of last resort for a society that has allowed way too much conflict and very little resolution or solutions.

Most criminals and gangsters do not really change their mentalities. They only run out of steam. They get tired.

It is tiring worrying about killing others all the time and being fearful of the consequences. Wars end not because the hate they feel for the competition goes away? But because people get tired of the energy it takes to hate so much and to live in chaos. They let go of it because peace is far more livable and far more stable and people prefer it over many years of having to live with the opposite of it.

Hate begets more hate indeed, and this runs both ways. If the Israelis have turned right wing, it is to a great deal due to the attacks against civilians by groups like Hamas.

In the end, though, one cannot really expect both to love each other anytime soon. But one can make sure they stop killing each other, and the way to do that is for the international community to intervene directly by sending peacekeepers to Gaza after the war. So Gaza won't be governed by the dictatorial Hamas anymore, and the violence stops. If this shows to be effective, then Israel can and should be both persuaded and pressured to extend this arrangement to the West Bank as part of a peace agreement.

This obviously requires both ending Hamas' rule over Gaza and replacing the right wing coalition that rules Israel. Most Israeli polls suggest the latter will happen if the next elections were done today, and with it Netanyahu will likely go to jail because he's also quite corrupt (took bribes).

[wat0n]

There is a difference between seeing the October 7 attack as legitimate resistance and wishing for it to happen again.

For example, I see the attack as a reaction to Israeli occupation that will happen again in the future unless structural changes occur to the relationship between Israel and it's occupied territories. Yet this has been portrayed as support for the October 7 attack.

I already provided you with a video of leftist protesters calling for October 7 to happen again. This is definitely a problem for the left.

[Tainari88]

Even here, in PoFo you find people who support the attack. So can you among the leftist pro-Palestine protesters, including college students and academics... See the video I posted above for one such example.



This is easier said than done, though. Hamas and other actors could perfectly try to impede such civilian flight. It's a common tactic among these groups, when the US and Iraq fought ISIS to end its rule over Mosul ISIS would shoot at civilians trying to flee. Other times, some ISIS fighters would dress as civilians and then set off a suicide vest...



Hate begets more hate indeed, and this runs both ways. If the Israelis have turned right wing, it is to a great deal due to the attacks against civilians by groups like Hamas.

In the end, though, one cannot really expect both to love each other anytime soon. But one can make sure they stop killing each other, and the way to do that is for the international community to intervene directly by sending peacekeepers to Gaza after the war. So Gaza won't be governed by the dictatorial Hamas anymore, and the violence stops. If this shows to be effective, then Israel can and should be both persuaded and pressured to extend this arrangement to the West Bank as part of a peace agreement.

This obviously requires both ending Hamas' rule over Gaza and replacing the right wing coalition that rules Israel. Most Israeli polls suggest the latter will happen if the next elections were done today, and with it Netanyahu will likely go to jail because he's also quite corrupt (took bribes).

Who supports taking hostages and killing people? It makes no sense.

Now, again human rights. You got to do it. Equality. You got to do it.

Netanyahu was the wrong leader at the wrong time and took the wrong actions.

Hamas if you dig deep? It was all developed because Israel wanted to radicalize that group. And they stepped into the power vacuum. It shows you do not manipulate another group's internal politics to try to destabilize it. Hillary R. Clinton did that with the mujahideen in Afghanistan. They created and supplied well the Taliban that later created issues for them when they wanted to capture Osama Bin Laden. They shot themselves in the foot with the anti Soviet crap undermining. That is what happens with a lack of ethics for sure.

None of this shit happens in politics if you govern ETHICALLY.

I really think that in the future international law organizations are going to have increasingly more authority and power and it has to be against superpowers and everyone having to pick sides and get stuck with a sandwich problem. IF the vast majority of small nations stick together and back each other up? The 120 nations or more that create a strong and consistent coalition among themselves will be a great force to be reckoned with.

Which nations produce a lot of chocolate? Ghana and the Ivory Coast. Among others like Peru, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, etc. If they stick together and take on the big chocolate giants like Ferrero Rocher, and Mars, and Hershey's, they can stop the transfer of wealth to the companies and no real wealth to the nations who produce the goods.

But it is about a lot of organizing and doing. Just like all great politics are about that.

There are solutions. What breaks down is abusive nations and governments who are very powerful actors and use that to abuse everyone else. But there are ways of combating it all.

The killing in this Israel-Palestine war has to end. It is totally immoral, and unethical and inhumane and horrible. Got to have human rights for the Palestinians. The Israelis have rights for Israel. But they do not apply it in equal measure to the Palestinians. They have to do that. @Saeko is right about that.

Ethical Jewish people also know that is the way. Like Naomi Klein and others. Equality brings justice.

[Saeko]

I already provided you with a video of leftist protesters calling for October 7 to happen again. This is definitely a problem for the left.

Assuming that guy wasn't yet another of the countless Zionist infiltrators, what you've posted proves nothing at all. You're painting the entire movement with the brush of a single rando, and yet you completely dismissed the numerous genocidal incitements of Israeli government officials as unrepresentative of Israeli policy. You are a hypocrite.

[wat0n]

Assuming that guy wasn't yet another of the countless Zionist infiltrators, what you've posted proves nothing at all. You're painting the entire movement with the brush of a single rando, and yet you completely dismissed the numerous genocidal incitements of Israeli government officials as unrepresentative of Israeli policy. You are a hypocrite.

I have yet to see any disavowal of these people.

This is not an isolated example either, mass rape supporter.

[Rancid]

There is a difference between seeing the October 7 attack as legitimate resistance and wishing for it to happen again.

For example, I see the attack as a reaction to Israeli occupation that will happen again in the future unless structural changes occur to the relationship between Israel and it's occupied territories. Yet this has been portrayed as support for the October 7 attack.

That's the risk of these understandable reactions though. It will get portrayed as such, so it will typically result not in people coming to the table, but an equal (and typically stronger) reaction right back. Makes me wonder if historically which has been more successful? Violent protest or peaceful protest?

In the longer term, Israel will have to concede to some sort of just 2 state solution. It will happen... eventually.

[Unthinking Majority]

There is a difference between seeing the October 7 attack as legitimate resistance and wishing for it to happen again.

For example, I see the attack as a reaction to Israeli occupation that will happen again in the future unless structural changes occur to the relationship between Israel and it's occupied territories. Yet this has been portrayed as support for the October 7 attack.

Do you see Oct 7 as "legitimate resistance"?