[Fasces]

Yes you could say that labeling one as a planet and one as a dwarf planet is a social construction, yes the dividing line between the the two categories must have some level of arbitrarianess

To say that planetness is a social construction is stupid.

Now is a naming scheme where a dwarf planet is not a planet stupid? Of course it is. Its an abuse of the English language. I expect a very different standard from STEM people than from poets in their use of language. But does that mean we should abandon Astronomy? No of course not any more than we should abandon racial science because some people have made some very dubious racial classifications.

Never mind. Back to working backward from the conclusion.

[ingliz]

@Rich

There is no scientific rationale for race-based research.

Race is a very crude marker, and using self-identification as a member of a particular race is particularly problematic. For example, a substantial proportion of Americans are of mixed racial origin. This is bound to lead to highly heterogeneous racial groups for study. Using more specific markers, such as the presence or absence of enzymes or genes associated with the diseases under study, would make more sense. But then it wouldn't be race-based research, would it?

[QatzelOk]

....I do not agree with your assessment of the situation....

Do you think it ruined them genetically Q? Why?

It ruined the group genetically, but not each individual ex-slave. You have put forward the idea that "surviving the death ship voyage" eliminated the weak. But this is a one-time event, and it eliminated those whose immunity to disease was weak for whatever reason... not just genetic weaknesses.

I am talking about the way that 20 generations of skinny intellectual African slaves were eliminated from the gene pool of Western hemisphere slaves, thus creating a "fake" gene pool that doesn't include some very important manifestations of intelligence and strong will.

This strongly affected the slave cultures of the Americas, and to lesser degrees it affected all the fake-criteria-choosing peoples of the world who fell for ideological and socially-constructed rules to marriage and child creation. We have all been victims to some degree of this genetic destruction, but muti-generation slaves were the most controlled - the most destroyed in terms of variety.

Slaves were forced to eliminate their intellects and free thinkers, while most civilizations simply encouraged their human cattle to pursue this through sanctions like social rejection because "married the wrong person" (from another race, too independently minded, not enough of a slave to economic enrichement, etc.)

The African-American community of 2024 has still not recovered from this forced loss of important survival characteristics, a loss that was forced on them by racism-practicing slaveowners (who are still with us today in our elites).

What it did was pick the ones who survived disease, stress, bad working conditions, and every fucking horror known to humankind.

Yes, surviving being shipped to the Americas on Death Ships - like the Irish and African slaves did - eliminated all of those who were physically weak. Many other groups - my Acadian ancestors survived more than one perilous cross-ocean expulsion - went through the same unnatural filtering out of physically-weak intellectuals.

What percentage of the intellectuals from these groups was eliminated by this voyage....AND then later, over many centuries, by the non-stop abuse of the members of these groups who weren't physically strong enough to be good slaves, or good worker bees? All of them?

***

If race is very real (which I believe it is) then acting like it is fake will also cause massive societal damage.

Many children have told me that if they stop believing in Santa Claus, they won't get any presents from Him. So I know where you are coming from here.

And the Racial Santa Claus you are chanelling in this thread has provided Racists with many gifts - entire countries even!

[Pants-of-dog]

The physical dollar itself is a physical thing and not a social construct. What value we assign to it is the construct, which is different to the thing itself.

Likewise, the human being themselves is a physical thing and not a social construct. What race we assign to it is the construct, which is different to the person themselves.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not necessarily. Cotton Mather very famously wrote about blacks as intellectual equals of whites in the late 17th, early 18th century. It seems likely that others thought this, and while I am not an expert, I have always thought that the Valladolid debate would be proof of this, but really, the greatest proof of this was simply baptism.

People of all colors and races can be baptized and sacraments can be administered to them... Which means that any Christian who is serious has to recognize the sanctity of them as Christians, and even if he has misgivings about equality, he has to honor the basic standards set forth in the Bible... Which would mean that there may have been some degree of paternalism that could be practiced by Christians who were racist, but it is impossible to endorse a philosophy which treats them as subhumans.

I think I am not even necessarily denying what you are saying - racist attitudes towards one another in times where there are great scarcities that define existence are very normal. In-group preference is a survival trait, and it begins with the family, then proceeds to one's own town and community, then one's nation, then one's race, etc.

If you want an example of institutional racism that led to a lot of human rights abuses (including things like medical experiments, rape, beatings, family separation, and starvation) that was also mostly Christian, there is the residential school system here in Canada.

Well, the racism and colonialism predate Capitalism.

Yes, and when colonialism came along, it was supported by racism and helped support racism.

And when capitalism came along, it helped support colonialism and racism and was supported by them.

[Tainari88]

He's no more biased and he seems a damn sight better informed than that idiot comedian you posted criticising the British involvement in India. Lefties are pathological liars and often stupid, but they're not that stupid. Lefties know full well that races exist, that there is a biological basis to race despite what they claim to the claim. In the same way lefties know full well what the difference between a man and a woman is.

So that comedian knew that Britain came to control the Indian sub content and he knows the people of the Indian sub continent are of different race to the British. What he seems totally ignorant of is that India is now a nation state and an identity. Many people from South Asia do not identify as Indian, hence we refer to them as South Asians not Indians. It is bigoted to refer to all south Asians as Indians, in the same way that it is bigoted to refer to all south Asians as Pakistanis or by an abbreviation of Pakistanis. To say someone is of south Asian race is meaningful statement based on underlying biological realities.

Take Pluto and Jupiter. There are real physical differences between the two entities. Yes you could say that labeling one as a planet and one as a dwarf planet is a social construction, yes the dividing line between the the two categories must have some level of arbitrarianess, but Pluto and Jupiter have real physical differences most notably mass, orbital radius and eccentricity. To say that planetness is a social construction is stupid.

Now is a naming scheme where a dwarf planet is not a planet stupid? Of course it is. Its an abuse of the English language. I expect a very different standard from STEM people than from poets in their use of language. But does that mean we should abandon Astronomy? No of course not any more than we should abandon racial science because some people have made some very dubious racial classifications.

Rich, we are not talking about astronomy or planets. We are talking differences within one species that can and does produce fertile offspring. Africans and Europeans have sex and produce healthy fertile offspring all the time. I am sure in some place on this planet some married and unmarried couples of different 'races' are having children right now.

Why are you so upset about Trevor Noah? Again he is a man whose father was European. A Swiss national of German background. He had a child with a woman from a South African background I think it was Xhosa ethnicity. He was declared illegal when he was born for being of mixed heritage. Why? Some stupid segregationist laws. He would have been a perfectly regular-looking guy in my native society of Puerto Rico at the time of his birth if he had been born in Puerto Rico and not South Africa. What was the difference? How race is perceived by the society and the law. Differences in what makes us legal and what makes us all human.

No England and the UK did not have to take over India. Or colonize it. That is not something the UK had to do under duress with a gun to its head by the elite of your nation Rich. None of that is about we had to do it or perish pressure. It was done because the elite are power drunk and greedy and are competing with other elites from other nations and are always in these power trips looking to dominate the planet and disrespect the people who live in other countries and other cultures. I am very consistent. I do not care who the oppressors are. They could be elitist African class conscious Kenyans doing the oppression in the city of Nairobi or a bunch of white British English elitists in London. The reasons why they do that are not about they must do it or perish. They do it because they are all socially and mentally conditioned to believe in their innate superiority. A mental illusion that @Fasces has just accurately described. Along with being used to thinking of themselves as better than all the other classes of people out there in their societies. It needs to change. Because if it does not? We are stuck with these bad results forever.

And I for one do not want to have to raise more children of drug addicted mothers who believe they are not as good as the rest of the world out there, because they have internalized the racist shit that is sent to them every day. Or the murderer of other people because they failed to care about the humans out there since no one gave one fuck about them their entire lives and they do not care about not harming a society they never felt a part of @Rich.

The effects of all that ignorant thought process, spewing discrimination and class-conscious exclusion, and lack of respect, compassion and love towards others has really deleterious effects on society. I do not want to spend a lot of my time forever on cleaning up the psychological damage that human beings leave behind in society because of the MENTAL GARBAGE that racism does in this world. Because that is what racism is Rich. MENTAL GARBAGE.

[Tainari88]

@QatzelOk you know what I really enjoy about you is you often write thoughts that are very unconventional and it jogs something in my mind that I was unaware of before and it makes me take it to a new goal or path or conclusion. I really like that. I hope we have more debates about these type of topics in the future.

Well, you said this:

It ruined the group genetically, but not each individual ex-slave. You have put forward the idea that "surviving the death ship voyage" eliminated the weak. But this is a one-time event, and it eliminated those whose immunity to disease was weak for whatever reason... not just genetic weaknesses.

I am talking about the way that 20 generations of skinny intellectual African slaves were eliminated from the gene pool of Western hemisphere slaves, thus creating a "fake" gene pool that doesn't include some very important manifestations of intelligence and strong will.

This strongly affected the slave cultures of the Americas, and to lesser degrees it affected all the fake-criteria-choosing peoples of the world who fell for ideological and socially-constructed rules to marriage and child creation. We have all been victims to some degree of this genetic destruction, but muti-generation slaves were the most controlled - the most destroyed in terms of variety.

Slaves were forced to eliminate their intellects and free thinkers, while most civilizations simply encouraged their human cattle to pursue this through sanctions like social rejection because "married the wrong person" (from another race, too independently minded, not enough of a slave to economic enrichement, etc.)

The African-American community of 2024 has still not recovered from this forced loss of important survival characteristics, a loss that was forced on them by racism-practicing slaveowners (who are still with us today in our elites).

Oh Q, I would never have adopted my eldest son at all if I thought that way darling. Never. He was way behind academically and was thought incapable of finishing high school much less the university in any real capacity. All his social worker people thought him a slow learner and not only that had a terrible attitude. A real challenge. He was highly unlikable and had Oppositional Defiant Disorder. ODD. I think his IQ score was 88 and his father was in jail for life for murdering people and would never get out, his bio father was also a domestic violence man with the mother and tried to choke her to death a couple of times. He never gave a rat's ass about his own son. The social worker in charge of his case went to the prison Q, to ask to take a picture of him and for him to sign his parental rights to his son for legal purposes. He signed the paperwork but refused to have his picture taken to give to his son. My adopted son. Why? 'I do not give a shit about bastard or his bitch of a mother too.' Those were his kind last words for his only child. What a sweetheart of a man eh?

His mother was a hardcore drug addict Q. She did drugs during all the pregnancies. She had three kids. All from different fathers of different races. Her eldest son that was 4 years older than my adopted son, was half Mexican and half African American. He was the eldest. And that kid had to dig through trash bins looking for dinner for his younger brother to eat something with, because she would be gone days on a drug binge and would leave the kids fending for themselves without adult supervision and no dinner cooked or money to buy food with. Nothing. When she was present she was sleeping off the effects of her drug problems and would awaken in a foul mood and beat the kids but mostly only my son because the was the darkest of the three and the only one with a Black father who hated her. She beat him black and blue because she was in a bad mood. She took drugs during her pregnancies. Crack, beer, marijuana, and maybe heroin they were not sure. But my son the middle child was born almost two months early due to her drug use during pregnancy and had to be placed in an incubator in Phoenix Arizona where he was born. He weighed 4 pounds only at birth and cried nonstop due to the crack addiction.

I do not want to tell you how it was with him and trying to cope with an eight-year-old who is suicidal and does not want to live anymore and you are an adoptive parent with no other children and no experience in raising kids with emotional disturbances. I was told he would amount to nothing and not to expect him to learn Spanish or do well in school. He was working at a first-grade level of reading and math when I adopted him and he was way behind in school though he was in a third-grade classroom. The foster parents he was at when we met him, were good people but she had a lot of those kids in her home and to keep them quiet and compliant she gave them a Nintendo Switch videogame in their home. She could go shopping and clean and do errands and not be dealing with a lot of impertinent questions. Her own biological children had great grades in school and became doctors and engineers, but that woman did not bother putting that kind of effort into her foster kids because they were challenging. Wanting to be with parents that they thought of as their mom and dad but who failed them due to drugs and many problems that the US has galore in its society and which they refuse to remedy.

I remember the conversation I had with his social worker. She was a 30-year veteran of the system of child welfare in Colorado. She told me, 'if you can get him through each grade with passing grades it is going to be a great thing. I do think trying to teach him Spanish at this late stage in his life is too much for him. He has a lot of trauma. You need to be realistic.'

What happened with the 88 IQ score traumatized kid? African American son of mine? The one that everyone disliked, and wrote off as a born-to-lose person?

Well, he got into a basketball team, worked hard at basketball, I got him into an International Baccalaureate program (IB) program with an elementary school that was dual language like @Rancid's children are in Q...and I fought hard. For his education. His father fought hard. That kid gave us a lot of trouble Q. A lot of trouble. It was a mighty battle to get him to work hard, believe in himself, and to start understanding that he had to achieve through his own will.

He learned Spanish fluently. He started getting decent grades, I threw away most of his videogames and shit. And restricted all that. Got him into sports if he wanted to get aggressive do it on the basketball court. I would talk about African American history when he was willing to listen to it.

He was threatened by a neighbor's friend who was a Neo-Nazi. The man moved in next door to us and grew over 1000 marijuana plants in Colorado. It stunk. He attracted weird people to his home. Two of them broke in one day and stole some tools and stuff. They escaped using our patio and jumped our short front fence with the tools and some neighbors saw it. Mexican neighbors. The neighbors said they were black or might have been black. So? The asshole neighbor comes to accuse my husband who was watching a basketball game at the time with our son too, who loved basketball to accuse our son of having stolen the tools because all those 'Black' thieves are all the same. And we were harboring the thief in our home. My husband tried to reason with him. I was at work at the time. Not home. I did not see the incident.

The neighbor was told in no uncertain terms that our son was not involved. He did not believe my husband and believed the dumb neighbors who only knew Black people on TV and none in real life since they were Latinos with limited social circles. And watched too much junk TV with stereotypes. You know how that goes Q.

Anyway, my husband repeated to the neighbor that our son was watching basketball and was not involved. The neighbor said that my husband was a liar and threw a beverage in his face. Now, my husband grew up in a bad barrio in Puerto Rico. With golden glove boxers and a lot of if you are a dude in that environment you do not back down. He told me he slapped the guy. But, later on my son and then the cop report said he punched that neighbor hard and knocked him out. They called the cops and charged my husband with battery. The asshole neighbor had a long record of bar fights and bullshit but he did not get a citation. Even though the neighbor was in our backyard and was told politely to leave and instead escalated the incident. Do I think they favored the white guy? The asshole? YES I DO.

Then had to hire a lawyer. Deal with the issues. Two weeks later some dude on a motorbike with Neo Nazi tatoos shows up and he has a gun. My husband is backing up from the back parking at our home, the Nazi says, 'You know it is not good to harbor a thief. That thieving n word is gonna get shot dead on his way to school.' And threatened him and my husband. And I said to my husband did you get the guy's plates? No, they are small and he left quickly. I thought, all these years getting that kid stable and doing well and these fucking racist motherfuckers are going to come along and shoot my boy dead in the street over a crime he did not commit Q. Over what? Marijuana shit and some hoods that stole some tools and racist thinking.

I made sure my son was safe. He finished high school out of state with the help of a friend who was a judge. Got good grades. Finished high school, enrolled in college, finished college on the Dean's list. His IQ jumped to 118. Why? ENVIRONMENT. VALUES. LOVE. RESPECT. DEDICATION. The difference that people need in this world to be successful and not fail!! It is not fucking genes. It is WORK. Hard ass work, and caring. Despite that these fucking racist, violent motherfuckers do in the world to make it shitty. You do your WORK. You do what has to be done to give these beautiful children who need love and caring and respect a CHANCE at life.

They can stick their fucking racist LIES right up their asses. They are not doing anything to make a better society. All they are doing is creating the conditions for a civil war and their own children are the ones who are going to be lying bleeding and dying in the street like mad dogs. Why? They choose to hate and to discriminate. They chose it. Do not make excuses for that behavior the ones who sympathesize with these people.

I never will respect that thought process Q.

For me it is not about the African Americans who due to slavery became the worst of society or something like that. NO, it is about how the collective of all the people in the USA do not do what is necessary to CHANGE the society when they have a chance. I am not rich. I am not from the elite. I can't adopt 10 kids and put the money and time that requires. I could only adopt one kid. That is all I could do. I was blessed at age of late 40s to have a biological child of mine. A big surprise. And the moment that baby was born, my older son was a proud older brother. You can't say one negative thing about my older son in front of him because he will defend him tooth and nail. True loyalty to his big brother and his big brother is loyal to him. They do not look like each other. Physically not at all. There is a 13 and a half year age difference between the two also.

My older son called me yesterday on Mother's Day to say how much he loves me and appreciates me. He is coming for Christmas. He does not want to come during the summer when it is way too hot over here. I do not blame him. Lol. He lives in Denver, Colorado. He has his own business. Something he wants to do. He graduated with honors in Science and Biology. He was on the Dean's List.

The supposed loser who was born to lose. Be violent. Be in jail. Be another statistic.

No, you change people with love, compassion, hard work, tolerance and discipline. And you love them for who they are. You develop their potential. And the results are AMAZING. I can die happy knowing my son told me 'I love you Mom. Happy Mother's Day.' The kid that was unlikable and no one thought could turn out to be such a success.

All of us are untapped human potential. If we stop the hate. The lack of respect. And start doing a lot for others who have no one to count on in this world. You have to be responsible and be trustworthy. Love society even if society does not love you Q.

I will never respect Nazi mentalities. Sorry. I can't do that.

Do not ask that of me. I had too many real-life experiences with them to think those people were on the right path in life. They are not. They are only going to bring civil war and chaos. And anyone who does not understand that is either naive or living in denial.

[FiveofSwords]

Likewise, the human being themselves is a physical thing and not a social construct. What race we assign to it is the construct, which is different to the person themselves.

Exactly. A 'Human being' is a physical entity which is why I do not call it a social construct. There are very real and meaningful differences between humans and other species. This is not just a thing we 'made up' to facilitate trade, unlike currency.

Also, there are different kinds of human beings. This was the result of relative genetic isolation and adaptation over time to distinct environments. That is also very real and you cannot change the skin color of elon musk by simply getting people to all agree that he is purple. It just doesn't work that way.

[Pants-of-dog]

Exactly. A 'Human being' is a physical entity which is why I do not call it a social construct. There are very real and meaningful differences between humans and other species. This is not just a thing we 'made up' to facilitate trade, unlike currency.

No one claimed that humans are a social construct, nor did anyone claim that distinction between species is a social construct.

Also, there are different kinds of human beings. This was the result of relative genetic isolation and adaptation over time to distinct environments. That is also very real and you cannot change the skin color of elon musk by simply getting people to all agree that he is purple. It just doesn't work that way.

The physical characteristics that we use to differentiate between different races are real.

And everyone thinks Elon Musk is white because we have a social construct of whiteness that we all decided on, and he fits the criteria.

[FiveofSwords]

It ruined the group genetically, but not each individual ex-slave. You have put forward the idea that "surviving the death ship voyage" eliminated the weak. But this is a one-time event, and it eliminated those whose immunity to disease was weak for whatever reason... not just genetic weaknesses.

I am talking about the way that 20 generations of skinny intellectual African slaves were eliminated from the gene pool of Western hemisphere slaves, thus creating a "fake" gene pool that doesn't include some very important manifestations of intelligence and strong will.

This strongly affected the slave cultures of the Americas, and to lesser degrees it affected all the fake-criteria-choosing peoples of the world who fell for ideological and socially-constructed rules to marriage and child creation. We have all been victims to some degree of this genetic destruction, but muti-generation slaves were the most controlled - the most destroyed in terms of variety.

Slaves were forced to eliminate their intellects and free thinkers, while most civilizations simply encouraged their human cattle to pursue this through sanctions like social rejection because "married the wrong person" (from another race, too independently minded, not enough of a slave to economic enrichement, etc.)

The African-American community of 2024 has still not recovered from this forced loss of important survival characteristics, a loss that was forced on them by racism-practicing slaveowners (who are still with us today in our elites).



Yes, surviving being shipped to the Americas on Death Ships - like the Irish and African slaves did - eliminated all of those who were physically weak. Many other groups - my Acadian ancestors survived more than one perilous cross-ocean expulsion - went through the same unnatural filtering out of physically-weak intellectuals.

What percentage of the intellectuals from these groups was eliminated by this voyage....AND then later, over many centuries, by the non-stop abuse of the members of these groups who weren't physically strong enough to be good slaves, or good worker bees? All of them?

***


Many children have told me that if they stop believing in Santa Claus, they won't get any presents from Him. So I know where you are coming from here.

And the Racial Santa Claus you are chanelling in this thread has provided Racists with many gifts - entire countries even!

I have never been given anything because I am white. Quite the opposite, actually. This is not a situation I would want to believe is real, obviously...but I simply cannot avoid know that reality is what it is. As I have said many times, we have no country. Germany is not for german people. Ireland is not for Irish people. The usa is not for white Americans. in contrast, Israel clearly is for the Jewish people. China clearly is for Chinese people, etc.

I certainly side eith palestinians in their conflict with Israel. But this is predicated on a very simple assumption: that the Palestinians and the jews are in fact different people. They have a different legacy and a different destiny. They thrive in different environments (and societies). They have different preferences. They have different aesthetics. They are just different people. And this is not simply some convention or 'social construct'...Palestinians could not at will just decide they are jews and enjoy all the same things jews enjoy. If they COULD, then I would say they should do thay and get the hell over their ridiculous nabka greivance..because they are only telling themselves that they should be upset over something they have absolutely no reason to be upset with. In essence they should consider themselves no different from jewd and simply embrace being ruled by Israel. But no, I dont think that is possible...and it isn't possible because it simply isn't in the blood of the Palestinian. They are fundame tally different from jews on a biological level...not simply because they went to different schools or consume different products...all of which could easily be 'fixed' with little effort.

As a white man, I am constantly told there is no fundamental difference between myself and someone from the Congo. We allegedly thrive in exactly the same environment. We have exactly the same dreams for the future and the path humanity should go. So there is no reason we should not occupy the same state...and whatever distinct identities we have could be solved by simply choosing our own favorite breakfast cereal. That is total bullshit. Just like the analogous situation with jews versus Palestinians, race is very real and distinct people are different in very fundamental ways that cannot be solved by simply consuming different products created by capitalism. We need to actually have the freedom to control our own societies and control our own destiny. And that is the essence of nationalism. If you do not believe there is any difference between people then you have no logical reason not to support a one world government controlled by jews. You have no reason to support the sovereignty of Palestine, or Taiwan, or China, or Ukraine, or anyone. Sovereignty would be meaningless and pointless because all humans are the same.

I know exactly what I personally believeabout that and I state it quite clearly. Humans are actually not all the same. That is why I can actually be a nationalist and be logically consistent. The rest if you guys do not seem to have any clarity on that question. You primarily seem concerned about the possibility that if I think white people are any different from other people, then I am going to go be mean to some black person. That is just a childish concern and it also fails to address the fundamental issue.

[FiveofSwords]

No one claimed that humans are a social construct, nor did anyone claim that distinction between species is a social construct.



The physical characteristics that we use to differentiate between different races are real.

And everyone thinks Elon Musk is white because we have a social construct of whiteness that we all decided on, and he fits the criteria.

Well you should claim species is a social construct. All of your arguments about race being a social construct apply equally to species. And yes, if you admit that races have physical differences then you would logically be forced to abandon the idea that race is only a social construct. It simply contradicts the premise. You could say attitudes about race are a social construct, but race itself is an observable physical phenomenon.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well you should claim species is a social construct. All of your arguments about race being a social construct apply equally to species.

No. The last time you tried that argument, you tried to convince everyone you could mate with a chimpanzee.

And yes, if you admit that races have physical differences then you would logically be forced to abandon the idea that race is only a social construct. It simply contradicts the premise. You could say attitudes about race are a social construct, but race itself is an observable physical phenomenon.

No. Physical differences do not disprove the claim that something is a social construct.

[FiveofSwords]

No. The last time you tried that argument, you tried to convince everyone you could mate with a chimpanzee.



No. Physical differences do not disprove the claim that something is a social construct.

It isn't an argument, it is just a fact. And no, I have no idea on whether humans can made with chimps. I just know there is no scientific consensus on the matter. That is what I said and all that I claimed, and it is just a question of fact, not an opinion. I shared an article with repeated the fact that there is no scientific consensus on the matter. Instead of disproving my claim or the claim of the article, you guys just started talking about having sex with monkeys. Clearly you lack the attention span required to have any serious discussion about anything.

Anyway whether humans can mate with chimps is irrelevant to the question. You guys seem to accept that humans mixed with neanderthals.. those are technically different species. Also you seem to know what a ring species is. Really...EVERY species is technically a ring species if you include extinct subspecies. That is just the nature of biology and genetics. It makes ALL classification of life have an arbitrary aspect to it, just like there is an arbitrary aspect to race. That doesn't mean that living things are just as alive as a dollar, however. That simply doesn't follow.

[Potemkin]

It isn't an argument, it is just a fact. And no, I have no idea on whether humans can made with chimps. I just know there is no scientific consensus on the matter. That is what I said and all that I claimed, and it is just a question of fact, not an opinion. I shared an article with repeated the fact that there is no scientific consensus on the matter. Instead of disproving my claim or the claim of the article, you guys just started talking about having sex with monkeys. Clearly you lack the attention span required to have any serious discussion about anything.

Anyway whether humans can mate with chimps is irrelevant to the question. You guys seem to accept that humans mixed with neanderthals.. those are technically different species. Also you seem to know what a ring species is. Really...EVERY species is technically a ring species if you include extinct subspecies. That is just the nature of biology and genetics. It makes ALL classification of life have an arbitrary aspect to it, just like there is an arbitrary aspect to race. That doesn't mean that living things are just as alive as a dollar, however. That simply doesn't follow.

Not all classification of living organisms is arbitrary - cladistic analysis is not arbitrary, and this fact is what led to the “cladistic revolution” in palaeontology in the 1980s and 90s. Primates, for example, are now defined as a particular clade of organisms - the ‘crown group’ of primates, for example, is defined to be the most recent common ancestor of all living primates, and all of that organism’s descendants. This is not an arbitrary definition, @FiveofSwords. It separates the primates from all other organisms in a non-arbitrary and biologically meaningful way.

[Tainari88]

I have never been given anything because I am white. Quite the opposite, actually. This is not a situation I would want to believe is real, obviously...but I simply cannot avoid know that reality is what it is. As I have said many times, we have no country. Germany is not for german people. Ireland is not for Irish people. The usa is not for white Americans. in contrast, Israel clearly is for the Jewish people. China clearly is for Chinese people, etc.

I certainly side eith palestinians in their conflict with Israel. But this is predicated on a very simple assumption: that the Palestinians and the jews are in fact different people. They have a different legacy and a different destiny. They thrive in different environments (and societies). They have different preferences. They have different aesthetics. They are just different people. And this is not simply some convention or 'social construct'...Palestinians could not at will just decide they are jews and enjoy all the same things jews enjoy. If they COULD, then I would say they should do thay and get the hell over their ridiculous nabka greivance..because they are only telling themselves that they should be upset over something they have absolutely no reason to be upset with. In essence they should consider themselves no different from jewd and simply embrace being ruled by Israel. But no, I dont think that is possible...and it isn't possible because it simply isn't in the blood of the Palestinian. They are fundame tally different from jews on a biological level...not simply because they went to different schools or consume different products...all of which could easily be 'fixed' with little effort.

As a white man, I am constantly told there is no fundamental difference between myself and someone from the Congo. We allegedly thrive in exactly the same environment. We have exactly the same dreams for the future and the path humanity should go. So there is no reason we should not occupy the same state...and whatever distinct identities we have could be solved by simply choosing our own favorite breakfast cereal. That is total bullshit. Just like the analogous situation with jews versus Palestinians, race is very real and distinct people are different in very fundamental ways that cannot be solved by simply consuming different products created by capitalism. We need to actually have the freedom to control our own societies and control our own destiny. And that is the essence of nationalism. If you do not believe there is any difference between people then you have no logical reason not to support a one world government controlled by jews. You have no reason to support the sovereignty of Palestine, or Taiwan, or China, or Ukraine, or anyone. Sovereignty would be meaningless and pointless because all humans are the same.

I know exactly what I personally believeabout that and I state it quite clearly. Humans are actually not all the same. That is why I can actually be a nationalist and be logically consistent. The rest if you guys do not seem to have any clarity on that question. You primarily seem concerned about the possibility that if I think white people are any different from other people, then I am going to go be mean to some black person. That is just a childish concern and it also fails to address the fundamental issue.

Gee, such greatness eh?

Variation is not to be respected. because we are not all the same. And as such we are obligated to think of superior and inferior. And as such my group is superior. End of story.

Time to break out the whining again.

I have never been given anything because I am white. I have suffered for my whiteness. Because the only group of people being oppressed in 2024 in a world full of 8 billion or so souls are white Americans who speak English, have jobs in the USA and he (five man) thrives in an environment like the Congo and the USA at the same time.

What kind of total bullshit is this now? I want to know.

Si me comprendieras....que feliz seria.

Yes, Sword, you would not harm anyone because they are black. That is the truth and nothing but the truth. Despite your writing about African cannibals and Papua New Guinea and the primitives, and Indigenous Americans like the Aztecs being this or that racist crap remarks. And the Puerto Ricans and Chileans and other people on here married to people who are different than they are in ethnic groups producing healthy children....despite all that...here you are complaining how bad you got it. because Scotland is not going to welcome your Nazi group to go there and repatriate themselves in a land full of people from the Indian sub continent. Oh, poor me, there does not exist a nation in the world who only has exclusively white people in it. The world has moved on. There are Bangladeshis in London, Mayors of London who are from backgrounds that are not British white, there are African British actors like Idris Elba. There are people from Jamaica and Hong Kong, British ex-colonies living in England. They polluted the all WHITE British image of only Anglos for an Anglo nation.

The world has changed. Accept the change and move on...but no....

No one understands me. Si me comprendieras.

[FiveofSwords]

Not all classification of living organisms is arbitrary - cladistic analysis is not arbitrary, and this fact is what led to the “cladistic revolution” in palaeontology in the 1980s and 90s. Primates, for example, are now defined as a particular clade of organisms - the ‘crown group’ of primates, for example, is defined to be the most recent common ancestor of all living primates, and all of that organism’s descendants. This is not an arbitrary definition, @FiveofSwords. It separates the primates from all other organisms in a non-arbitrary and biologically meaningful way.

Dude..different human populations also have different ancestors. There is a 'common ancestor' with a scottish person and a Russian person. There is a common ancestor with a scottish person and a han Chinese. There is a common ancestor with a scottish person and a native american. Etc. All of these things you claim are meaningful is also true with human populations. So yeah...once again...either both race and species are simply social constructs or neither of them are. Pick one.

[Pants-of-dog]

Race and species do not both have to be social constructs.

[Deutschmania]

Has he eaten a taco in his life? Or spaghetti is Italian and European enough for him?

How about spaghetti tacos ? Such is the innovative melting pot of of America . Distinct items can and in time will become synthesized . It's as Pete Seeger sang .

[Tainari88]

How about spaghetti tacos ? Such is the innovative melting pot of of America . Distinct items can and in time will become synthesized . It's as Pete Seeger sang .

That might be a hit in Mexico Deustchmania. People love both spaghetti and tacos over here.

[Tainari88]

Not all classification of living organisms is arbitrary - cladistic analysis is not arbitrary, and this fact is what led to the “cladistic revolution” in palaeontology in the 1980s and 90s. Primates, for example, are now defined as a particular clade of organisms - the ‘crown group’ of primates, for example, is defined to be the most recent common ancestor of all living primates, and all of that organism’s descendants. This is not an arbitrary definition, @FiveofSwords. It separates the primates from all other organisms in a non-arbitrary and biologically meaningful way.

Hmm, see how English speakers ignore perfectly sound theories because they do not get translated in time? You guys are terrible with the English only stuff!

When did cladistics begin?
Cladistics was introduced by the German entomologist Willi Hennig, who put forward his ideas in 1950. He wrote in his native language, so these were completely ignored until 1966 when an English translation of a manuscript was published under the title “Phylogenetic Systematics” (Hennig 1966).

Why is cladistics important in evolution?
Cladistics helps to elucidate mechanisms of evolution.

It is also possible to compare the descendants of a single ancestor to look at patterns of origin and extinction in these groups, or to look at relative size and diversity of the groups.

Why Do Biologists Need Cladistics?
Cladistics is useful for creating systems of classification.
Cladistics is now the most commonly used method to classify organisms. Why do we need to classify organisms? Well, consider the bewildering variety of organisms that have ever lived on Earth, from jellyfish to bacteria — that's what paleontologists do for a living. How is it possible that paleontologists, let alone other biologists, are able to communicate their ideas about such a diverse topic as the history of life? Well, it's obvious that a system of classification is needed. That is, we need words like beetle or conifer so that we can talk about many organisms at one time. In fact, the history of formal classification schemes in biology is long, dating from the 1700s, well before Darwin proposed his theory of natural selection. Today, cladistics is the method of choice for classifying life because it recognizes and employs evolutionary theory.

Cladistics predicts the properties of organisms.
As with any other system in science, a model is most useful when it not only describes what has been observed, but when it predicts that which has not yet been observed. Cladistics produces hypotheses about the relationships of organisms in a way that, unlike other systems, predicts properties of the organisms. This can be especially important in cases when particular genes or biological compounds are being sought. Such genes and compounds are being sought all the time by companies interested in improving crop yield or disease resistance, and in the search for medicines. Only an hypothesis based on evolutionary theory, such as cladistic hypotheses, can be used for these endeavours.

Cladistics helps to elucidate mechanisms of evolution.
Unlike previous systems of analyzing relationships, cladistics is explicitly evolutionary. Because of this it is possible to examine the way in which characters change within groups over time — the direction in which characters change, and the relative frequency with which they change. It is also possible to compare the descendants of a single ancestor to look at patterns of origin and extinction in these groups, or to look at relative size and diversity of the groups. Perhaps the most important feature of cladistic is its use in testing long-standing hypotheses about adaptation. For many years, since even before Darwin, it has been popular to tell "stories" about how certain traits of organisms came to be. With cladistics, it is possible to determine whether these stories have merit, or whether they should be abandoned in favor of a competing hypothesis. For instance, it was long said that the orb-weaving spiders, with their intricate and orderly webs, had evolved from spiders with cobweb-like webs. The cladistic analysis of these spiders showed that, in fact, orb-weaving was the primitive state, and that cobweb-weaving had evolved from spiders with more orderly webs. This situation has been repeated in many groups with many traits, including studies of parasitism, geographic distribution, and pollination.

This concludes the module on Cladistics. Revisit any page; additional references can be found on the Introduction page.

This is the link that the above quote was taken from:

https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/clad/clad5.ht ... e%20groups.

@Potemkin from which clade did you emerge you handsome man eh?