Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 204 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15316312

    GENEVA (23 May 2024) – The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Alice Jill Edwards, has urged the Government of Israel to investigate multiple allegations of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment against detained Palestinians since 7 October 2023.
    “Persons deprived of liberty must always be treated humanely,” Edwards said. “They must be provided with all protections required under international human rights and humanitarian law, whatever the circumstances of their detention.”

    Since the attacks of 7 October 2023, it is estimated that thousands of Palestinians including children have been detained. Palestinians from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and from Gaza are being held in prisons run by the Israeli Prison Service and in Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) camps.

    The Special Rapporteur received allegations of individuals being beaten, kept in cells blindfolded and handcuffed for excessive periods, deprived of sleep, and threatened with physical and sexual violence. Other reports suggest prisoners have been insulted and exposed to acts of humiliation, such as being photographed and filmed in degrading poses, while prolonged use of zip-tie handcuffs has reportedly caused friction injuries and wounds.

    “I am particularly concerned that this emerging pattern of violations, coupled with an absence of accountability and transparency, is creating a permissive environment for further abusive and humiliating treatment of Palestinians,” she said.

    It appears that no effective measures have been taken by the Israeli authorities to investigate these allegations.

    ….


https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... ces%20(IDF)%20camps.

What will the justification be for arresting and torturing kids?

“there was a tunnel nearby!”
#15316319
The UN is right is saying allegations of torture need to investigated.

And children are in fact sometimes used by Hamas, particularly to watch troop movements. Knowing (obviously) that they're less likely to be attacked than adults are.
#15316326
Since the Israeli government is not charging them with anything and not letting them see lawyers or loved ones, this will be hard to investigate.

Which makes sense. if a country does not want to be investigated for its anti-democratic practices.
#15316351
Why Israel is Stuck
Three concepts of Western warfare

After months of threatening a Rafah invasion, Israel finally went in. They quickly took the civilian crossing with Egypt - in violation of the peace treaty negotiated between the two countries to Israel’s great advantage in the 1970s. They planted Israeli flags at the crossing, blasted the sign saying “I love Gaza”, and declared a kind of “Mission Accomplished” moment.

But like George W Bush’s speech which was supposed to be the end of the Iraq war but was actually the beginning of the Iraq insurgency and a major step in the long-term erosion of American supremacy, Israel’s declaration of victory is premature.

Over the next few days, Palestinian resistance groups initiated a series of operations (many of which they recorded in dramatic field videos) at a tempo nearly unmatched in the war, now in its eighth month. Resistance spokesman Abu Obeida told listeners that the fighters had scored hits on 100 Israeli military vehicles in 10 days in Rafah in the south of Gaza, Jabalia in the north, and Zeitoun in the north (from which the Israelis have since withdrawn). Israeli soldiers, Abu Obeida said, were suffering casualties “by the dozen”.

Under heavy fire in both Rafah and Jabalia, Israel is likely to withdraw from these areas as well. We can then expect a return to aerial bombardment and siege warfare on the starving population. Then more raids, perhaps into the middle of Gaza, during which Israel will lose more soldiers and more vehicles, before withdrawing. Then a period of bombing, then more raids. All the while, Lebanon’s Hizbollah will be hitting military installations on Israel’s northern border with escalating firepower and Yemen’s Ansarallah will be tightening a blockade on ships trading with Israel.

Based on the experiences of the 2006, 2008/9, 2012, 2014, and 2021 wars, Israel would have been expected to have accepted a ceasefire by now, having settled for the demonstration effect of killing between 40,000 - 200,000 or more (according to an estimate made by Ralph Nader) and unwilling to bear the growing costs in soldiers’ lives, displaced Israelis, and economic difficulties.

Why has Israel been so determined this time, compared to previous times? Is it the case that, having mobilized around half a million men, that the numbers of casualties sustained in these ground operations is bearable by Israel, even if Israeli casualties reach the thousands or even tens of thousands?

This is, likely, the calculation. Israel has mobilized all available troops and the US has provided all the firepower Israel can wield. But this approach of maximal firepower and maximum mobilization - of overkill and of over-mobilization - has disconnected Israel from normal military calculations and normal strategic thinking, rendering it vulnerable to the resistance’s counter-strategies.

To understand this vulnerability, let’s break down Western wars in history into three types: Clausewitzian, counterinsurgency, and genocidal.

Clausewitz says war is policy by other means; Counterinsurgency wars are about controlling a population; Genocidal wars are about destroying the foundations of life.

Clausewitz’s book On War uses the campaigns of Frederick the Great, the Prussian king who fought with his European neighbours, and of Napoleon, who fought all the rest of Europe combined (while also fighting a genocidal war against Haiti, but we’ll leave that aside for this article). In these wars, the goal is to inflict losses on the enemy’s military to compel the loser to do the winner’s bidding.

In colonial counterinsurgency wars, the goal is population control. Insurgent leaders are targeted for assassination. Insurgent and insurgency-suspected organizations are dismantled by arrest and imprisonment, physical destruction, and sabotage. Compliant leaders are installed and supported. Populations are overawed and terrorized by campaigns of torture and demonstrative massacres, including “punitive raids”. Recent examples of these wars are the US wars on Iraq and Afghanistan, and general Israeli behavior in the West Bank.

In colonial genocidal wars, the goal is extermination. Food sources are targeted - both stored food and crops. Masses of people are killed indiscriminately including women, children, noncombatants. Survivors of massacres are driven into unlivable areas to die and ringed with enough firepower to kill them if they try to escape. Many of the US “Indian Wars” followed this pattern (see Stannard’s American Holocaust and Grenier’s The First Way of War) as did the German genocides of the Herero in 1905 and the Nama in 1908, reported in, e.g., The Kaiser’s Holocaust.

Israel has been trying to conduct a genocidal war on Gaza since 2005. The idea was to surround Gaza with the Gaza fence and the ring of settlements known as the Gaza envelope; to use automated weapons, AI targeting, and frequent “mowing the lawn” aerial massacres to prevent exit without being labor-intensive; and to gradually render the entire Gaza Strip unlivable by the destruction of farmer’s fields, denial of coastal fishing, and an ever-constricting siege of food supplies.

The strategy was foiled by the Palestinians in Gaza, who managed to keep making Gaza livable while also generating a military resistance capable of counterattack (the notorious rockets) and ultimately, on October 7 2023, of breaching the ring of firepower built to keep them contained in their long-term death trap.

To counter the Palestinian strategy, since October 7th, Israel has tried to further constrict the area through total siege, bringing about famine; destroy every hospital to deepen the unlivability of the strip; and finally to use their ground forces to break Gaza into smaller enclaves in the hope that each enclave might be made uninhabitable in a way that the entire Gaza strip could not be.

In response to this, the Palestinian resistance has maintained steady military pressure on Israeli troops forming the individual rings of fire to try to enclave Gaza, forcing the Israelis to withdraw after taking losses each time. The network of tunnels and the resilient local weapons industry has made it impossible for Israel to destroy the armed resistance, even as the Palestinian civilian population is targeted for genocide.

Now we can return to a discussion of why overkill and overmobilization haven’t brought Israel to victory.

Overkill means the ability to threaten is gone. Israel’s doctrine of massively disproportionate violence against civilians (called the Dahiya doctrine for a neighbourhood Israel destroyed in Lebanon) has culminated in Gaza in the most appalling string of war crimes that could, if an actual system of international justice were to materialize, at some point see its leaders in jail for crimes. But in the military context, the consequence is that Israel cannot use the threat of firepower to try to get compliance. If they are going to exterminate you no matter what, if they shoot anything that moves, if they attack hospitals – then there’s no benefit to complying and no additional penalty for defiance, since they’ll kill you in any case if they get the chance.

Overmobilization means most soldiers have nothing to do. The transformation into rubble of most of the urban surface of Gaza renders any counterinsurgency warfare strategy moot: there are no flows of people to try to control by setting up checkpoints, no one able to go to work or school as the schools and workplaces have been destroyed; no functioning civilian institutions to try to recruit spies and informants from; all leadership has moved underground. Would-be counterinsurgent troops have nothing to do except wander around in the rubble waiting to be ambushed from unseen tunnels. The Israelis have shaped the battlefield into one that gives them no role but to take a position, fire endless amounts of US-provided ammunition into the distance, and wait to be attacked.

While the mobilization of half a million troops means that losses of dozens of soldiers per day can be sustained for a very long time, these huge numbers can’t really be brought to bear on the enemy even if the Israelis were to try to go into the tunnels, which they thus far have not been.

The Israeli army is much more than a military force: it is the melting pot meant to create social cohesion (now failing) in a country composed of people from all over the world with nothing in common. As Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro notes in The Empty Wagon, the Israeli Defence Forces officer training course contains modules like “What is Judalism? The uniqueness of the Jewish people; the people and land in a Jewish perspective; War and the army in a Jewish perspective; is Judaism a religion, a way of life, or a constitution?; the identity of the Jewish people.” Ben Gurion envisioned the army as the place where the “admixture of people which flows in from foreign exiles will be cleansed, refined and purified from harmful, foreign dross in the melting pot of Jewish brotherhood and through military discipline.” Shapiro notes, “sounds more like a rehab than an army.” Only a tiny fraction of this half million would have the qualities to even be accepted into, let alone complete, a training course on knife fighting in dark tunnels. Even the basics of staying out of windows or infantry cover for armored vehicles doesn’t seem to have been learned.

Meanwhile the seeping of the Hannibal doctrine - in which a soldier should expect to be killed by his comrades rather than risk becoming a captive and a potential bargaining chip to swap for thousands of Palestinian prisoners - into every corner of Israeli life since its application against masses of Israelis on October 7th and its pervasiveness in the army cannot but erode the confidence of the ordinary soldier. Not only does the Israeli army not have an ethos of “no man left behind”, the ethos is “don’t get captured or your comrades will kill you because your life is worth less to us than the Palestinian prisoners we’re torturing…”

Keeping bad news from the Israeli public is a high priority for the regime, and that seems to extend to the army as well, as soldiers don’t appear to learn lessons from their engagements with the resistance. Keeping this huge force in the field, supplied, and above all propagandized, is costly in proportion to its size - while military results do not appear to be.

In 1905, the Germans were losing the war to the Nama. 20,000 Germans, succumbing to thirst and driving themselves mad, were chasing 2,000 nimble Nama cavalry, led by Hendrik Witbooi, around in the desert endlessly.

Nama noncombatants had fled to the bush where they suffered from hunger hiding from the Germans. The Germans finally tried to convince the noncombatants to surrender by using missionaries, who promised to alleviate the starvation in exchange for surrender. They lied: when the Nama surrendered, they were sent on further death marches and into (perhaps a German innovation) the world’s first death camp on Shark Island. When the Germans couldn’t complete the genocide by war, they did so by deception.

But that’s also a trick that expires, and a century later, the Palestinians won’t be deceived.
https://justinpodur.substack.com/p/why-israel-is-stuck


wat0n wrote: the UN itself charges for briefings by its staff. Why would it be any different for country missions to the UN?

Needless to say, the requirement for such a job would be to, yes, work for a pro-Russia media outlet.


Is this your way of saying I have no evidence that "Aaron Mate was paid to brief the United Nations" and no evidence that "The Grayzone are paid by the Kremlin", because it looks like it. We've been back and forth on this about ten times now and you've not posted any evidence to support your smears so I guess we can file this under 'wat0n is full of shit again'.

...one from his own website, if anything.


Yes, it was from Norman Finkelstein's website that you shared, a broken link, that again doesn't prove what you claim. When you're this weak, it might be in your interest to on this part of the debate, since it's obvious you can't prove what you claim. And frankly, it gets very boring very quickly.

The fact that you believe someone wearing a kippah walking by leftists is an "agitator" speaks volumes.


Lots of orthodox Jews and Jews wearing kippahs - I like those watermelon ones btw! :excited: - attend the anti-genocide Palestine protests. That's not the problem here. The problem here is that Gideon Falter and his org, the Campaign Against Antisemitism, is an obvious Zionist hasbara/propagnda outfit. I recently found out it was co-founded by a certain obvious hasbara troll, Joseph Cohen of the Israel Advocacy Movement, and is funded by the Jewish National Fund.

Your clutching at straws on this story where an obvious agitator got exposed for what he is obvious. Gideon had about 4 days of fame until the full clip was posted showing he was looking for trouble. Hahah at "walking by". When you have to lie this much to justify genocide, you might want to consider getting a new job, because you really do suck at this one, that is: when Zionists who defend an ongoing genocide play victim.

It's actually from academics, not some random "Western source"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparati ... ns_Project


You do understand that the universities of Texas, Wisconsin and Illinois are in the West, right? And you still have no Palestinian source for something you're claiming is in the Palestinian Constitution despite me asking a handful of times. So, we can also file this under 'wat0n is full of shite again'.

They got caught out bullshitting when it came to the Al Ahli attack.


Everyone who isn't a retard knows that the Israelis bombed the Christian Baptist hospital, killing hundreds of Palestinians. They threatened it repeatedly before they did so. They then bombed it three times before this major hit that killed hundreds. And they initially admitted to it on their social media until they realized the number of casualties might make them look bad. So they opted to blame the victims and get people like you to lie on their behalf.

Palestinian weapons barely kill more than one person at a time. And you're the joker trying to claim this one time Palestinians killed hundreds in their own hospital. What a pathetic mind you have, wat0n. Just...savage and sick and clearly in need of psychological treatment.

Israelis attacking Palestinian hospitals is not new. They've been doing it regularly during the current genocide-on-steroids and during previous wars. It's what Zionists do. In between lying their asses off and stealing anything they can, in this case, Palestinian women's lingerie and millions of Palestinian cash as they invade Gaza and the West Bank..

Your sources are usually propagandists, and including some that have a bad track record. Or which contradict your own arguments.


You dismissing things doesn't make any of what you say in your lazy one-liners true. If that were true, you'd counter what is said. Instead you're just a typical hasbara troll smearing those who out your bullshit that you can hardly even defend, never mind prove..

Gaslighting is your only out now, heh?


This is a response to me asking for evidence "Hamas oppress Christians" and again, something you can't prove. Zionists lie as they breathe.. *places in waton is talking shite folder*

You don't even need to do much of an effort given I quoted the relevant info. And it comes from a Catholic university affiliated to the Church.


Citation needed!

So Gaza is an open air prison one can leave whenever he wants now?


Gaza was an open air prison pre-October 7 from around 2006/2007, and since, has become an extermination camp. Yes, Palestinians can leave if they have about $5000 per person and understand they can never return, but most Palestinians don't have that type of money. Many are crowdfunding to get out. Is this hard to understand? I can go over the details further since you're playing dumber than you are.

I'm not sad the settlers are being subjected to sanctions. If anything I hope the US sanctions more of them.


Then why bring it up that a handful of extremists/fascists got sanctioned for their terrorism? :lol:

...Protests that are opposed by the public. You forgot that part.


It is "the public" that are at these protests. Millions worldwide. It's wonderful to see. I went to a number of protests since the last time I was here, including uni encampments. It's great seeing the level of passion out there against genocide..

If Hamas was popular, it would hold elections, wouldn't it?


It did, and won. The so-called democrats in Israel and the West refused to accept the results because the Palestinians "voted the wrong way". Hillary Clinton even admitted that.

And to turn this back on you, if the Palestinian Authority - who you cheerlead for and who the vast majority of Palestinians despise - were so popular, it would hold elections wouldn't it? It hasn't for 16 years because it is a good servant to the Israelis and U.S. in helping maintain the savage military occupation in the West Bank..

Hamas has already threatened to execute hostages, the ceasefire deal it wants would just legitimize that.


Citation needed for "Hamas has already threatened to execute hostages," because that is complete bullshit.

Hamas have repeatedly stated they want the hostages to go home. Sinwar expected a hostage exchange deal within days of October 7, he said he thought they would be back within a couple of days and told some of the freed hostages that they would go home soon and they reported this back once they were freed.

Sinwar and other Palestinian fighters did not believe that the Israeli government actually doesn't give a shit about their own hostages. Something that has played out to this day with the rejection of the ceasefire deal by the Israelis on May 6. The families of the hostages are protesting Netanyahu's fascist ruling coalition regarding the hostages, not Hamas.

Many of the hostages' families do indeed hate Netanyahu, and why wouldn't they? After all, October 7 happened under his watch. Netanyahu bears responsibility for the October 7 attack happened, right after Hamas and the other factions that directly participated.


I think many Israelis have learned that their government doesn't give a shit about them once the shit hits the fan. Israeli civilians, military and others have seen now that if they are taken hostage, their government will kill them using the Hannibal Directive before attempting to rescue them. Hopefully this will encourage the 4 million or so with dual citizenship to go home, or consider living in a free Palestine where Palestinians have the basic human rights that they enjoy..

As for who is executing Israeli prisoners, that is Israel. We saw it happen on October 7 when Israeli tanks and airforce were bombing and firing on their own civilians to prevent them from being taken as hostages. Some examples of Israeli prisoners being killed in Gaza by Israel bombs and guns are: Yossi Sharabi, Ron Sherman, Yotam Haim, Alon Shamriz, Itay Svirsky.

None, this is a right-wing government after all. It's the coalition Netanyahu set up when he won in 2022.


I know it is a rightwing government. All Israeli governments are rightwing. I was asking who this left is in Israel that you claim exists. And you respond with nonsense like the above as if I will forget the conversation when all I can do is scroll up to see how you're trying to dodge the debate once again. My guess is you can't answer because I'm right and there is no left in Israel close to power. Because it's an ethnosupremacist settler-colony..

When they put it in their Constitution in 2003.


Citation needed for "Palestinians seeking an ethno state" from a Palestinian source.

I don't know why I ask because you won't provide much more than boring one-liners, but at least I can expose how disingenuous, at best, Zionist hasbara-trolls are.

Given your support for mass murder and mass rape of civilians, I think the only one projecting here is you.


Nope, it's definitely you, in between supporting a state committing a live streamed genocide. I think anyone reading knows who the savage in this debate is. :lol:

Hamas is clear it will fight Israel forever, and until its destruction.

If that's what most Palestinians really want, and vote accordingly, what do you think will happen?


Hamas and the 7 or so other Palestinian factions are fighting a war of liberation against occupation. Zionism must - and will - go. Equal rights for all or get the fuck out..

Is this supposed to be an argument?


I posted a poll showing the masses would rather be kidnapped by Hamas over the IOF, just to shatter the illusion you hold, assuming that the masses worldwide hate Hamas like Zionists do (the latter of which who only do because they got their asses rightly handed by them). Most people prefer Palestinian freedom fighters over Zionist fascists who are big into committing genocide and then celebrating it on Tik-Tok, retardedly not understanding that the majority of the world don't tolerate such behaviour, never mind celebrate it <--- this is a big factor in why generation Z has no time for Zionist bullshit.

Projecting much again or are you fessin' up something?


That's a Zionist trait: projection of their own crimes on their victims. Other things Zionists are big on are lying, stealing, raping, killing and playing victim. Good for everyone observing that it hardly works anymore.

Yeah, I bet they were fighting soldiers like the Bibas family heh?


If you look at the videos of resistance attacks, you will see they target soldiers only. Whereas the cowards in the Zionist army kill indiscriminately, men, women and children. Here's a most recent video of the resistance actions against the invading Zionists in Gaza, who by the way keep getting their asses handed to them. These videos are really great, I recommend taking a shot every time a Palestinian fighter hits a Zionist terrorist. You may be quite drunk by the end. :D They are from the last week alone..I can share weekly updates if you like.


This is great too.


And this:


The bravery of the Palestinian resistance compared to the cowardice of the invading terrorists cannot be denied..

Not fighting in close quarters either, although Hezbollah has lost more men than Israel has.


Did someone say Hezbollah? :excited:


Hezbollah record all their fighters deaths in the various resistance channels. The Zionists pretend the same isn't happening to them or will record the odd death here or there after the Palestinian resistance shows videos of them red-triangling those terrorists. You can see some of that in the videos above. Zionists won't admit how much they have lost because it'd force the country to seek an end to the war. What we do know is many Zionists revolted against going to Rafah and loads more are seeking mental health treatment because they can't hack war when it's not on computer games; actual combat is new to them and since they don't have the will to die for what they think is their country, unlike Palestinian fighters, it's clear who will win this war, sooner or later..

Also, Hezbollah made Israel shrink by 10 kilometres since October 6th. Which is very cool. 8)

Also also, read the article at the top of this post to see how the Zionists won't win.

Too bad former president Donoghue disagrees. What's plausible is that, if South Africa's claims are true, they would amount to a breach of the Genocide Convention. But the ICJ did not make any determinations on whether this is the case or if it's even plausible for the simple reason that this is left for the merits stage of the trial.


Everyone with eyes who isn't a liar understands what Zionists are doing is committing genocide against Palestinians, and for some of us with a longer view than October 7, understand that that is what has been happeing to Palestinians since day dot. Despite that, hundreds of genocide scholars, law-people etc. have concluded it is genocide.

A new study from last week also concluded the same. Zionists may lie to themselves in defence of the genocide while pretending it isn't happening, but the masses worldwide see the Zionist genocidal colony for what it is.

A ground-breaking study by a coalition of prestigious academic institutions has concluded that Israel’s actions in Gaza since 7 October, 2023, constitute genocide against the Palestinian people. The study, conducted by the University Network for Human Rights, the International Human Rights Clinic at Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School, presents a thorough legal analysis of Israel’s conduct in the context of the Genocide Convention of 1948.

The report concludes that Israel’s genocidal acts in Gaza have been motivated by the requisite genocidal intent, as evidenced by statements from Israeli leaders expressing dehumanisation and cruelty towards Palestinians, as well as intentions to destroy and exterminate them. The patterns of conduct by Israeli military forces in Gaza further reinforce the finding of Israel’s genocidal intent, the report said.


QatzelOk wrote:The other Israeli-kill threads are full of page after page of "Quote where I said the report was lying" spam. It seems like one of your hasbara tactics is to ignore reality, and the other is to bore people to death with spam.


Indeed.
#15316370
Pants-of-dog wrote:Since the Israeli government is not charging them with anything and not letting them see lawyers or loved ones, this will be hard to investigate.

Which makes sense. if a country does not want to be investigated for its anti-democratic practices.


Has any civil rights association sued the government to get more information? Nothing stops them from doing that.

skinster wrote:Is this your way of saying I have no evidence that "Aaron Mate was paid to brief the United Nations" and no evidence that "The Grayzone are paid by the Kremlin", because it looks like it. We've been back and forth on this about ten times now and you've not posted any evidence to support your smears so I guess we can file this under 'wat0n is full of shit again'.


Is this your way of saying you have no evidence briefers work pro-bono even when the UN itself charges for that service?

skinster wrote:Yes, it was from Norman Finkelstein's website that you shared, a broken link, that again doesn't prove what you claim. When you're this weak, it might be in your interest to on this part of the debate, since it's obvious you can't prove what you claim. And frankly, it gets very boring very quickly.


This is the article at hand, Finkelstein is definitely supporting -indeed, embracing - Holocaust deniers here.

skinster wrote:Lots of orthodox Jews and Jews wearing kippahs - I like those watermelon ones btw! :excited: - attend the anti-genocide Palestine protests. That's not the problem here. The problem here is that Gideon Falter and his org, the Campaign Against Antisemitism, is an obvious Zionist hasbara/propagnda outfit. I recently found out it was co-founded by a certain obvious hasbara troll, Joseph Cohen of the Israel Advocacy Movement, and is funded by the Jewish National Fund.

Your clutching at straws on this story where an obvious agitator got exposed for what he is obvious. Gideon had about 4 days of fame until the full clip was posted showing he was looking for trouble. Hahah at "walking by". When you have to lie this much to justify genocide, you might want to consider getting a new job, because you really do suck at this one, that is: when Zionists who defend an ongoing genocide play victim.


What was he doing that was oh so provocative? Just walking around pro-Palestine protesters as an unvetted Jew?

Hint: Vetting only Jews with these litmus tests does not make your argument at all.

skinster wrote:You do understand that the universities of Texas, Wisconsin and Illinois are in the West, right? And you still have no Palestinian source for something you're claiming is in the Palestinian Constitution despite me asking a handful of times. So, we can also file this under 'wat0n is full of shite again'.


More grasping at straws here, you have provided no reason at all to say that we should ignore academic sources. It seems that you are trying to pull this crap because you have no arguments at all to justify Palestine defining itself as an Arab state in its Constitution.

skinster wrote:Everyone who isn't a retard knows that the Israelis bombed the Christian Baptist hospital, killing hundreds of Palestinians. They threatened it repeatedly before they did so. They then bombed it three times before this major hit that killed hundreds. And they initially admitted to it on their social media until they realized the number of casualties might make them look bad. So they opted to blame the victims and get people like you to lie on their behalf.

Palestinian weapons barely kill more than one person at a time. And you're the joker trying to claim this one time Palestinians killed hundreds in their own hospital. What a pathetic mind you have, wat0n. Just...savage and sick and clearly in need of psychological treatment.

Israelis attacking Palestinian hospitals is not new. They've been doing it regularly during the current genocide-on-steroids and during previous wars. It's what Zionists do. In between lying their asses off and stealing anything they can, in this case, Palestinian women's lingerie and millions of Palestinian cash as they invade Gaza and the West Bank..


Anyone who isn't a retard also knows that most experts agree that the explosion was more consistent with a Qassam rocket explosion than a heavy bomb. It seems you're butthurt that the Palestinian factions killed plenty of Gazan civilians.

skinster wrote:You dismissing things doesn't make any of what you say in your lazy one-liners true. If that were true, you'd counter what is said. Instead you're just a typical hasbara troll smearing those who out your bullshit that you can hardly even defend, never mind prove..


You dismissing rape accusations does not make any of the propaganda you copy-paste true either.

Instead you're just a degenerate who wants to watch rape videos to masturbate.

skinster wrote:This is a response to me asking for evidence "Hamas oppress Christians" and again, something you can't prove. Zionists lie as they breathe.. *places in waton is talking shite folder*


And more gaslighting, ignoring the actual sources.

skinster wrote:Citation needed!


UND wrote:Mission Statement

The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning, animated from its origins by the Congregation of Holy Cross. The University is dedicated to the pursuit and sharing of truth for its own sake. As a Catholic university, one of its distinctive goals is to provide a forum where, through free inquiry and open discussion, the various lines of Catholic thought may intersect with all the forms of knowledge found in the arts, sciences, professions, and every other area of human scholarship and creativity.


skinster wrote:Gaza was an open air prison pre-October 7 from around 2006/2007, and since, has become an extermination camp. Yes, Palestinians can leave if they have about $5000 per person and understand they can never return, but most Palestinians don't have that type of money. Many are crowdfunding to get out. Is this hard to understand? I can go over the details further since you're playing dumber than you are.


Where do they leave through? Israel or Egypt?

skinster wrote:Then why bring it up that a handful of extremists/fascists got sanctioned for their terrorism? :lol:


Because you're bullshitting here. I am fine with that, want to see more.

skinster wrote: It is "the public" that are at these protests. Millions worldwide. It's wonderful to see. I went to a number of protests since the last time I was here, including uni encampments. It's great seeing the level of passion out there against genocide..


Most of the rest of society is against these protests, specially in the US.

The left is not the public.

You're not the public.

skinster wrote:It did, and won. The so-called democrats in Israel and the West refused to accept the results because the Palestinians "voted the wrong way". Hillary Clinton even admitted that.

And to turn this back on you, if the Palestinian Authority - who you cheerlead for and who the vast majority of Palestinians despise - were so popular, it would hold elections wouldn't it? It hasn't for 16 years because it is a good servant to the Israelis and U.S. in helping maintain the savage military occupation in the West Bank.


Neither is popular, that's why neither wants to hold elections.

Hamas won in 2006, before most Gazans had been even born. And now that many know how Hamas rules, it's far from clear it would win.

skinster wrote:Citation needed for "Hamas has already threatened to execute hostages," because that is complete bullshit.

Hamas have repeatedly stated they want the hostages to go home. Sinwar expected a hostage exchange deal within days of October 7, he said he thought they would be back within a couple of days and told some of the freed hostages that they would go home soon and they reported this back once they were freed.

Sinwar and other Palestinian fighters did not believe that the Israeli government actually doesn't give a shit about their own hostages. Something that has played out to this day with the rejection of the ceasefire deal by the Israelis on May 6. The families of the hostages are protesting Netanyahu's fascist ruling coalition regarding the hostages, not Hamas.


Gosh, you make this so easy

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/ ... s-continue

https://nypost.com/2023/12/10/news/hama ... e-not-met/

skinster wrote:I think many Israelis have learned that their government doesn't give a shit about them once the shit hits the fan. Israeli civilians, military and others have seen now that if they are taken hostage, their government will kill them using the Hannibal Directive before attempting to rescue them. Hopefully this will encourage the 4 million or so with dual citizenship to go home, or consider living in a free Palestine where Palestinians have the basic human rights that they enjoy..


What many Israelis understood is that Netanyahu and the right are, in fact, too incompetent to guarantee their security. Netanyahu sold himself as Mr Security and that is over.

skinster wrote:As for who is executing Israeli prisoners, that is Israel. We saw it happen on October 7 when Israeli tanks and airforce were bombing and firing on their own civilians to prevent them from being taken as hostages. Some examples of Israeli prisoners being killed in Gaza by Israel bombs and guns are: Yossi Sharabi, Ron Sherman, Yotam Haim, Alon Shamriz, Itay Svirsky.


No, Hamas has executed plenty of Israelis. Particularly in October 7, I even shared you footage of that.

skinster wrote:I know it is a rightwing government. All Israeli governments are rightwing. I was asking who this left is in Israel that you claim exists. And you respond with nonsense like the above as if I will forget the conversation when all I can do is scroll up to see how you're trying to dodge the debate once again. My guess is you can't answer because I'm right and there is no left in Israel close to power. Because it's an ethnosupremacist settler-colony..


So I suppose that the peace activists who were murdered on October 7 were also rightists, heh? Same for those Israelis currently protesting their government.

skinster wrote:Citation needed for "Palestinians seeking an ethno state" from a Palestinian source.

I don't know why I ask because you won't provide much more than boring one-liners, but at least I can expose how disingenuous, at best, Zionist hasbara-trolls are.


Boring nonsense to disregard their own Constitution.

skinster wrote:Nope, it's definitely you, in between supporting a state committing a live streamed genocide. I think anyone reading knows who the savage in this debate is. :lol:


Sorry, but you are the one who glorified the October 7 massacre since the beginning

You're the one demanding to watch rape footage to masturbate.

skinster wrote:Hamas and the 7 or so other Palestinian factions are fighting a war of liberation against occupation. Zionism must - and will - go. Equal rights for all or get the fuck out..


Too bad they don't want equal rights for all. That's incompatible with Sharia.

skinster wrote:I posted a poll showing the masses would rather be kidnapped by Hamas over the IOF, just to shatter the illusion you hold, assuming that the masses worldwide hate Hamas like Zionists do (the latter of which who only do because they got their asses rightly handed by them). Most people prefer Palestinian freedom fighters over Zionist fascists who are big into committing genocide and then celebrating it on Tik-Tok, retardedly not understanding that the majority of the world don't tolerate such behaviour, never mind celebrate it <--- this is a big factor in why generation Z has no time for Zionist bullshit.


Lol a poll by an antisemitic Twitter troll. Again, is this nonsense your argument?

skinster wrote:That's a Zionist trait: projection of their own crimes on their victims. Other things Zionists are big on are lying, stealing, raping, killing and playing victim. Good for everyone observing that it hardly works anymore.


You're the one supporting the October 7 massacre

You're the one who wants to watch footage of rape to masturbate

skinster wrote:If you look at the videos of resistance attacks, you will see they target soldiers only. Whereas the cowards in the Zionist army kill indiscriminately, men, women and children. Here's a most recent video of the resistance actions against the invading Zionists in Gaza, who by the way keep getting their asses handed to them. These videos are really great, I recommend taking a shot every time a Palestinian fighter hits a Zionist terrorist. You may be quite drunk by the end. :D They are from the last week alone..I can share weekly updates if you like.


This is great too.


And this:


The bravery of the Palestinian resistance compared to the cowardice of the invading terrorists cannot be denied..


So why was a girl executed on video again? I already shared it.

skinster wrote:Did someone say Hezbollah? :excited:


Hezbollah record all their fighters deaths in the various resistance channels. The Zionists pretend the same isn't happening to them or will record the odd death here or there after the Palestinian resistance shows videos of them red-triangling those terrorists. You can see some of that in the videos above. Zionists won't admit how much they have lost because it'd force the country to seek an end to the war. What we do know is many Zionists revolted against going to Rafah and loads more are seeking mental health treatment because they can't hack war when it's not on computer games; actual combat is new to them and since they don't have the will to die for what they think is their country, unlike Palestinian fighters, it's clear who will win this war, sooner or later..

Also, Hezbollah made Israel shrink by 10 kilometres since October 6th. Which is very cool. 8)

Also also, read the article at the top of this post to see how the Zionists won't win.


Hezbollah has lost more men than the IDF

The Lebanese also can't work their land around the border due to the ongoing shelling

If Israel can't win, neither can Hezbollah or Hamas

skinster wrote:Everyone with eyes who isn't a liar understands what Zionists are doing is committing genocide against Palestinians, and for some of us with a longer view than October 7, understand that that is what has been happeing to Palestinians since day dot. Despite that, hundreds of genocide scholars, law-people etc. have concluded it is genocide.

A new study from last week also concluded the same. Zionists may lie to themselves in defence of the genocide while pretending it isn't happening, but the masses worldwide see the Zionist genocidal colony for what it is.


At least the ICJ has not ordered Israel to stop the war at all. Some of the judges (e.g. judge Sebutinde) are openly skeptical about the genocide claims.

Even in the latest provisional order, Israel has not been told to withdraw from Gaza. And even from the Rafah Governorate itself.
#15316392
As expected, the IDF and the Israeli government are continuing with their (now illegal) military operation in Rafah.

It is the magnitude and shamelessness of the violence that is almost certainly inspiring countries to recognize Palestinian statehood.
#15316396
Pants-of-dog wrote:As expected, the IDF and the Israeli government are continuing with their (now illegal) military operation in Rafah.

It is the magnitude and shamelessness of the violence that is almost certainly inspiring countries to recognize Palestinian statehood.


There's actually a discussion about what did the ICJ actually order. For instance:

https://x.com/StefanTalmon/status/17940 ... ZRdgg&s=19
#15316399
One of the reasons why Norway decided to recognize Palestine as a state is to get people in the global south to believe that western governments are not hypocritical, and that the rule based international order will be administered fairly.

While I understand the sentiment, it fails. Actions are required that show that these gestures are not symbolic. I find it doubtful that Palestinians will be satisfied with this.
#15316408
Pants-of-dog wrote:One of the reasons why Norway decided to recognize Palestine as a state is to get people in the global south to believe that western governments are not hypocritical, and that the rule based international order will be administered fairly.

While I understand the sentiment, it fails. Actions are required that show that these gestures are not symbolic. I find it doubtful that Palestinians will be satisfied with this.

I think the reason a handful of European countries decided to "recognized Palestine" was to give the false impression that the thoughts and feelings of ordinary Westerners sometimes have an effect on their zionist-owned governments.

This is just propaganda. The entire Western polity is made up of zionists and ass-kissers. The people have no effect on policy, especially foreign policy.

The only real power is with the clandestine criminals who pay 65,000 dollars to our retired poltical whores as "speaking fees." And these government whores "use their power" to do whatever money tells them to do.
#15316609
Pants-of-dog wrote:One of the reasons why Norway decided to recognize Palestine as a state is to get people in the global south to believe that western governments are not hypocritical, and that the rule based international order will be administered fairly.

While I understand the sentiment, it fails. Actions are required that show that these gestures are not symbolic. I find it doubtful that Palestinians will be satisfied with this.


You are as crazy as always. The reason why Norway and some others recognized Palestine is to put pressure or Israel and Netanyahu simple as that.

The reality of the matter is that any non-crazy shill individual understand that currently Israel has no political solution for the conflict and it seems Netanyahu at best or Israel at worst can't even formulate a political solution. They have went over the top with their retaliation so its time to put Israel down to size first politically then support wise and then by other means perhaps if they don't wizen up. This is not how democracies behave and if they don't stop then there will be further more severe consequences.

Its hard to say from afar why it went this far, is it Netanyahu who is clinging to power? A larger block within Likud? Or just Israel is a whole but reality is that our patience in Europe and even US is running out. We provided support and understood why the relatialtion was fully justified and needed after October but not to this degree and it has to end with a political solution or else.
#15316618
wat0n wrote:Political solution between whom?

Sounds like a dumb question, but isn't.


Between people of Israel and their elites on what to do with Gaza. Are they planning to lead an endless occupation campaign that will last decades and lead to nowhere? Or are they planning to leave without helping Gaza and HAMAS 2.0 will return? Are they gonna help rebuilt the shit that they destroyed? Are they gonna help Gaza build a democracy while being semi-occupied? Force democratic election? What is the plan? What is the long term goal here.

War for war sake or to keep power is not a plan. It literally leads to nowhere. We all know it, Israel knows it, lets stop pretending here. Right now Israel is just waging war to what end? What is the end? What is the goal?

Israel has a lot of choices and explanation to do both to the outside world and to its own people right now. As much as I see it helping build a democratic Gaza is a long term solution if they bann the radical parties from participating but that would require helping Gazans actually rebuilt Gaza and lead a semi-occupation for 5-10 years and see how it goes. I doubt Israeli population will be willing to pay although they did just destroy most of Gaza when it wasn't needed. The rest of the choices are utter shit.

But once again, What is the end goal Israel?
#15316622
So let me put my Christian hat on for a moment.

A great many American Evangelicals support Israel because they believe that Jesus cannot return until the temple is rebuilt.

There is a more subtle group who believe that because of God's covenant with the Jews, they are required to "bless" the Jews or risk dishonoring God. They are, in essence, bowing to God's chosen people. Even at great risk to themselves..

Both of these groups believe that Israel and the Jewish people are one and the same thing. (They aren't by the way.)

My opinion is that these are just convenient excuses for clandestine racism manifeste in hatred for all things "Arab". "Arabs" are seen to them an jut a sand variety of American blacks. Sick and reprehensible certainly, but common as can be these days. It is devilishly hard to combat because many of these poor and formerly middle class whates, , particularly poor southern whites, see minorities as the reason they don't have any money and little chance of getting any. That is, other than the government welfare in its many forms that serve as the cornerstone of the economy in US Southern States. Six of the top 10 states for consuming government largess are Southern. Nine of the 10 are red states. (And whatever New Mexico is. Take your pick.)
#15316625
JohnRawls wrote:Between people of Israel and their elites on what to do with Gaza. Are they planning to lead an endless occupation campaign that will last decades and lead to nowhere? Or are they planning to leave without helping Gaza and HAMAS 2.0 will return? Are they gonna help rebuilt the shit that they destroyed? Are they gonna help Gaza build a democracy while being semi-occupied? Force democratic election? What is the plan? What is the long term goal here.

War for war sake or to keep power is not a plan. It literally leads to nowhere. We all know it, Israel knows it, lets stop pretending here. Right now Israel is just waging war to what end? What is the end? What is the goal?

Israel has a lot of choices and explanation to do both to the outside world and to its own people right now. As much as I see it helping build a democratic Gaza is a long term solution if they bann the radical parties from participating but that would require helping Gazans actually rebuilt Gaza and lead a semi-occupation for 5-10 years and see how it goes. I doubt Israeli population will be willing to pay although they did just destroy most of Gaza when it wasn't needed. The rest of the choices are utter shit.

But once again, What is the end goal Israel?


I don't think Israelis have even had a chance to discuss this. In the end, that's what the next election should be about.

But... Can any decision be implemented while Hamas rules Gaza? And would the international community participate in it directly?
#15316626
wat0n wrote:I don't think Israelis have even had a chance to discuss this. In the end, that's what the next election should be about.

But... Can any decision be implemented while Hamas rules Gaza? And would the international community participate in it directly?


Israel was supposed to have drown up the plan before they started the war. Even Putin had a plan of Kiev in 3 days then changed it again and again and again. Israel has none as of now.

Waiting until and election is stupid because it would mean war for war sake during that time.

Nobody says the retaliation wasn't needed or wasn't justified. It wasn't needed to this extent which is the important part and the whole problem is Israel doesn't really know what end they are fighting for or to hence why it went so far.

And if somebody says to get rid of Hamas or free the hostages then this ain't an argument since it doesn't solve anything. It's not a solution it is just a reason to continue at this point.
#15316629
JohnRawls wrote:Israel was supposed to have drown up the plan before they started the war. Even Putin had a plan of Kiev in 3 days then changed it again and again and again. Israel has none as of now.

Waiting until and election is stupid because it would mean war for war sake during that time.

Nobody says the retaliation wasn't needed or wasn't justified. It wasn't needed to this extent which is the important part and the whole problem is Israel doesn't really know what end they are fighting for or to hence why it went so far.

And if somebody says to get rid of Hamas or free the hostages then this ain't an argument since it doesn't solve anything. It's not a solution it is just a reason to continue at this point.


It's quite evident Netanyahu and the Israeli right believed they could reach some Modus Vivendi with Hamas.

But... What else could be done regarding a long term arrangement without fighting a war like the one we're seeing?

Now, at last, Israel will have an election about the conflict. It's clear the right can't really come up with anything now that their conflict management strategy blew up.
#15316636
JohnRawls wrote:You are as crazy as always. The reason why Norway and some others recognized Palestine is to put pressure or Israel and Netanyahu simple as that.

The reality of the matter is that any non-crazy shill individual understand that currently Israel has no political solution for the conflict and it seems Netanyahu at best or Israel at worst can't even formulate a political solution. They have went over the top with their retaliation so its time to put Israel down to size first politically then support wise and then by other means perhaps if they don't wizen up. This is not how democracies behave and if they don't stop then there will be further more severe consequences.


Netanyahu has a solution:

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza with Israeli settlements in Gaza.

How does this recognition of Palestinian statehood put pressure on Netanyahu to do otherwise?

Its hard to say from afar why it went this far, is it Netanyahu who is clinging to power? A larger block within Likud? Or just Israel is a whole but reality is that our patience in Europe and even US is running out. We provided support and understood why the relatialtion was fully justified and needed after October but not to this degree and it has to end with a political solution or else.


The war continues because there is a financial logic in acquiring more land and resources by displacing the existing inhabitants of the land and replacing them with your own people.
#15316662
Pants-of-dog wrote:Netanyahu has a solution:

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza with Israeli settlements in Gaza.

How does this recognition of Palestinian statehood put pressure on Netanyahu to do otherwise?



The war continues because there is a financial logic in acquiring more land and resources by displacing the existing inhabitants of the land and replacing them with your own people.


You are saying as if all those things don't have consequences, may be in your mind.

What you don't wanna accept though is that the retaliation that Israel did was justified but not to this extent because they were attacked. The real question now is though what to do and what is the political solution. Is Israel going to do the same as they always did and retreat or are they going to do something new and actually help Palestine build a functioning state and democracy while obviously applying limitation on who can run in the elections at least for now. Which is the only solution that I can see that has any remote chance of success in the medium to long term without this degrading in to same old story.
#15316674
JohnRawls wrote:You are saying as if all those things don't have consequences, may be in your mind.


Since the IDF and Israeli government have suffered no negative consequences at all during this entire war, it would seem that my mind is right,

What you don't wanna accept though is that the retaliation that Israel did was justified but not to this extent because they were attacked. The real question now is though what to do and what is the political solution. Is Israel going to do the same as they always did and retreat or are they going to do something new and actually help Palestine build a functioning state and democracy while obviously applying limitation on who can run in the elections at least for now. Which is the only solution that I can see that has any remote chance of success in the medium to long term without this degrading in to same old story.


We do not have to speculate on what they are going to do.

We are watching it in real time: killing as many Palestinians as they can. Taking as much land as they can.

Why would:they help,Palestinians?
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