[annatar1914]

Right. And then check her grandchildren. She seems to be a key link in the whole story.

@Hakeer :

Yes, Arsinoe was made queen for Ptolemy's son Ptolemy II Philadelphius, the same king who asked St Simeon and the others of the Seventy Sages to translate the Scripture into Greek. And again, he's either 360 years old, or the history and the geneology have to be shortened. But then, that is probably the case anyway even if the time of the Persian Empire was shortened from more than 200 years to slightly over 50.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Yes, Arsinoe was made queen for Ptolemy's son Ptolemy II Philadelphius, the same king who asked St Simeon and the others of the Seventy Sages to translate the Scripture into Greek. And again, he's either 360 years old, or the history and the geneology have to be shortened. But then, that is probably the case anyway even if the time of the Persian Empire was shortened from more than 200 years to slightly over 50.

Could you please talk about the “soul” and how it got passed along from Aristotle/Hellenism to Christianity through St. Thomas Acquinas, and do Jews and Christians (either historically or currently) have different concepts of soul? Could we even bring Jaynes into this to answer the metaphysical mind/brain distinction to say soul is the seat of “consciousness” (Jaynes) or “rationality” (Aristotle)? And is your materialist concept of “soul” related or independent of all the above?

[annatar1914]

Could you please talk about the “soul” and how it got passed along from Aristotle/Hellenism to Christianity through St. Thomas Acquinas, and do Jews and Christians (either historically or currently) have different concepts of soul? Could we even bring Jaynes into this to answer the metaphysical mind/brain distinction to say soul is the seat of “consciousness” (Jaynes) or “rationality” (Aristotle)? And is your materialist concept of “soul” related or independent of all the above?

@Hakeer :

Christianity had a well developed idea of the Soul from the very beginning, long before Thomas of Aquino and the other Scholastics came along with their rationalist notions derived from philosophy not Christianity .

As St Palamas and the other Church Fathers write, Man is in the Image of God, that is, Trinitarian in his being despite having fallen.

Man has a body, a soul, and a spiritual faculty called the " Nous" which is darkened and semi dormant in our anthropological condition. One's Soul as ive mentioned before is substantial and has form in three dimensions but is otherwise unlike the body, which is animated by the vital principle which is the spirit.

Our mind or intellect is our reasoning faculty, what we use to think with is our brain. The mind or eye of the heart is the Nous, and is the seat of the Soul as its connected to the Body. The Fall disturbed its Noetic faculties and so we find it impossible without help to govern our disordered passions which arise from living in our bodies with this imbalance. This is what sin arises from.

Jaynes kind of accurately described the " chatter" of our darkened and somewhat dormant Nous but inaccurately blamed it instead on the fission of a bicameral hemisphered brain. No, the disorder lies deeper, in the heart, from whence comes the human will, and from the heart proceeds the mind/body disconnect.

All of this was revealed to the Apostles by Christ Himself and their disciples such as St Dionysius the Areopagite.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Christianity had a well developed idea of the Soul from the very beginning, long before Thomas of Aquino and the other Scholastics came along with their rationalist notions derived from philosophy not Christianity .

As St Palamas and the other Church Fathers write, Man is in the Image of God, that is, Trinitarian in his being despite having fallen.

Man has a body, a soul, and a spiritual faculty called the " Nous" which is darkened and semi dormant in our anthropological condition. One's Soul as ive mentioned before is substantial and has form in three dimensions but is otherwise unlike the body, which is animated by the vital principle which is the spirit.

Our mind or intellect is our reasoning faculty, what we use to think with is our brain. The mind or eye of the heart is the Nous, and is the seat of the Soul as its connected to the Body. The Fall disturbed its Noetic faculties and so we find it impossible without help to govern our disordered passions which arise from living in our bodies with this imbalance. This is what sin arises from.

Jaynes kind of accurately described the " chatter" of our darkened and somewhat dormant Nous but inaccurately blamed it instead on the fission of a bicameral hemisphered brain. No, the disorder lies deeper, in the heart, from whence comes the human will, and from the heart proceeds the mind/body disconnect.

All of this was revealed to the Apostles by Christ Himself and their disciples such as St Dionysius the Areopagite.

I didn’t mean to imply that St. Thomas Aquinas was the only or first Christian theologian influenced by Aristotle. I assume you know that “Nous” is Greek and was intellect for Aristotle. It is immortal. Along with the intermarriages we have been discussing came some of these ideas. Of course, Dionysius was himself a Greek, but not a lot is known about him.

[annatar1914]

I didn’t mean to imply that St. Thomas Aquinas was the only or first Christian theologian influenced by Aristotle. I assume you know that “Nous” is Greek and was intellect for Aristotle. It is immortal. Along with the intermarriages we have been discussing came some of these ideas. Of course, Dionysius was himself a Greek, but not a lot is known about him.

@Hakeer :

St. Dionysius the Areopagite was a disciple of the Apostles after talking to St Paul in Athens and is mentioned in the Bible. I have his works which modern scholars deny, but oh well, i know what i know.

I have decided to modify my original plan of discussion in light of recent and upcoming events. Many people are going to be hurting soon, and they're not going to understand what is really going on.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

St. Dionysius the Areopagite was a disciple of the Apostles after talking to St Paul in Athens and is mentioned in the Bible. I have his works which modern scholars deny, but oh well, i know what i know.

I have decided to modify my original plan of discussion in light of recent and upcoming events. Many people are going to be hurting soon, and they're not going to understand what is really going on.

I hope when you take up this topic again you will discuss the Pseudo-Dionysius of the 5th century. I just discovered him. He apparently had very significant influence on Aquinas but also on Eastern Orthodoxy. Historically, he had more effect on theological developments than the original Athens guy that St. Paul converted. Do Eastern Orthodox believe God is ultimately a mystical reality unknowable to humans? That seems to be the “Neoplatonism” aspect of “mystic theology” that Aquinas did NOT accept. But I might be wrong. I’m just beginning to scratch the surface.

If Harris loses, I will be in grief for our country and my granddaughters living with what my country becomes after I’m dead in a few years.

[annatar1914]

I hope when you take up this topic again you will discuss the Pseudo-Dionysius of the 5th century. I just discovered him. He apparently had very significant influence on Aquinas but also on Eastern Orthodoxy. Historically, he had more effect on theological developments than the original Athens guy that St. Paul converted. Do Eastern Orthodox believe God is ultimately a mystical reality unknowable to humans? That seems to be the “Neoplatonism” aspect of “mystic theology” that Aquinas did NOT accept. But I might be wrong. I’m just beginning to scratch the surface.

If Harris loses, I will be in grief for our country and my granddaughters living with what my country becomes after I’m dead in a few years.

@Verv

@Potemkin :

@Hakeer :

There is no " Dionysius of the 5th century" there is only St Dionysius of the 1st Century. " some Scholars" from the 19th century on have made assumptions that suggested to them a later date for him. But the other Church Fathers have been unanimous that he was from the time of the Christ and His Apostles. These are people who hate God and His Saints, and cannot bear the Truth, to have to accept Him with peace and humility.

And i have read him. St. Dionysius? He's no fabulist or liar from another era, he writes the truth concerning the things of God. He was as he said, one who knew and wrote to the Apostles.

God cannot be known in His essence. Aquinas and the other Latin Scholastics wanted a God they could grasp and understand: " the God of Philosophers and Savants", but not the REAL God. How could Aquinas, more in love with Aristotle than Jesus? He affirmed as much shortly before he died, on his way to dialogue with the Orthodox at Ferrara, when he said " all his works were just straw" of no worth....

[Hakeer]

@Verv

@Potemkin :

@Hakeer :

There is no " Dionysius of the 5th century" there is only St Dionysius of the 1st Century. " some Scholars" from the 19th century on have made assumptions that suggested to them a later date for him. But the other Church Fathers have been unanimous that he was from the time of the Christ and His Apostles. These are people who hate God and His Saints, and cannot bear the Truth, to have to accept Him with peace and humility.

And i have read him. St. Dionysius? He's no fabulist or liar from another era, he writes the truth concerning the things of God. He was as he said, one who knew and wrote to the Apostles.

God cannot be known in His essence. Aquinas and the other Latin Scholastics wanted a God they could grasp and understand: " the God of Philosophers and Savants", but not the REAL God. How could Aquinas, more in love with Aristotle than Jesus? He affirmed as much shortly before he died, on his way to dialogue with the Orthodox at Ferrara, when he said " all his works were just straw" of no worth....

I said Pseudo-Dionysius end of 5th and early 6th. Very famous. Hard to believe you don’t know about him.

[annatar1914]

I said Pseudo-Dionysius end of 5th and early 6th. Very famous. Hard to believe you don’t know about him.

I said Pseudo-Dionysius end of 5th and early 6th. Very famous. Hard to believe you don’t know about him.

@Hakeer :

I do, i do not accept the scholarly theory that he was from the 5th-6th century, or " Pseudo".

Thus, what i wrote earlier. He wasnt a liar or mentally ill. Scholars who make these ideas up are either malign or regurgitate what theyve been taught, because you can't say someone is holy if they're writing letters to the Apostle St John and yet lived in the 6th century. He said he was Dionysius the Areopagite, and reading what he wrote, i believe him. Many saints, Church Fathers, came to the same conclusion.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

I do, i do not accept the scholarly theory that he was from the 5th-6th century, or " Pseudo".

Thus, what i wrote earlier. He wasnt a liar or mentally ill. Scholars who make these ideas up are either malign or regurgitate what theyve been taught, because you can't say someone is holy if they're writing letters to the Apostle St John and yet lived in the 6th century. He said he was Dionysius the Areopagite, and reading what he wrote, i believe him. Many saints, Church Fathers, came to the same conclusion.

I don’t believe any human can live that long, but that aside, I was asking you to talk about his writings, whatever you believe about the identity of the writer.

[annatar1914]

I don’t believe any human can live that long, but that aside, I was asking you to talk about his writings, whatever you believe about the identity of the writer.

@Hakeer :

St Dionysius is my teacher, one of them anyway. Links to his writings:

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areo ... rarchy.htm

https://esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areo ... _names.htm

For those who seek. To say that he was a " Neoplatonist" is not saying enough at all. Its like Plato ( and ive read all his works too) was still in his symbolic Cave, himself, in comparison.

Defense of his authenticity, beyond that of the truth of his words:

https://orthochristian.com/86817.html

And a reference link to apophatic theology could be helpful:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophat ... 0uncreated.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

St Dionysius is my teacher, one of them anyway. Links to his writings:

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areo ... rarchy.htm

https://esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areo ... _names.htm

For those who seek. To say that he was a " Neoplatonist" is not saying enough at all. Its like Plato ( and ive read all his works too) was still in his symbolic Cave, himself, in comparison.

Defense of his authenticity, beyond that of the truth of his words:

https://orthochristian.com/86817.html

And a reference link to apophatic theology could be helpful:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophat ... 0uncreated.

I tried reading some of it, but it’s difficult, because I do not know how he defines some of his terminology. It is not something that you can fly into cold and understand it. Plus, I have a hunch some gets lost in translation.

Anyway, what I find interesting is that he was very influential with BOTH the West theologians (Aquinas, etc.) as well as Eastern Orthodox theologians (via Neoplatonism, etc.). Jaynes comes in here (right brain mysticism, Plato vs. left brain Aristotle rationality). In a way, he incorporates both traditions and so each side can draw from his writings the elements that support their theological views and ignore the rest.

It seems that the 5th century guy was a much more prolific writer than the first century guy.

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin , and @Verv :


So earlier i noted this thread on PoFo which offered a curious reflection tying the Maccabees and the trevails of Modern times. And so i posted:

I find some irony on a spiritual and historical level: hooligans from Israel supporting a sports team called " Maccabi", when the actual Maccabi the team is named after abhorred such things as Sports as something Heathen.... Seems these Israeli punks are more to be identified with the wicked apostates who helped persecute real Israelites than with the heroes of Scripture.

And so again something good and true and beautiful is once more identified in this modern age with evil and lies and hideousness

Therefore i take it as a sign to continue my revisionist reflection.

And what is that exactly?

I'll say it: i believe that the standard version of history, particularly of ancient times right up to the Life of Christ, is incorrect in some degree. Specifically in this context, i posit ( and am not alone in this revision) that the Maccabees and Jesus Christ were contemporaries, that Greco Roman history became confused, contradictory, and somewhat falsified during that period particularly in the works of the admittedly unreliable " Flavius Josephus" .

In this personal revision of mine ( which i do not carry as far as some similar revisions) the Roman Republic and Sparta were indeed definitely allied to the Maccabees against the Selucid kingdom of Antiochus Epiphanes as standard history records, helping liberate Israel and Greece, but furthermore to make a break with that standard history, the revision consists essentially of greatly telescoping and overlapping events and personages of the period from Persian times to shortly past the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That destruction had to do in my revision with a violation of the terms of the treaty of alliance between Rome and Jerusalem under the Maccabees.

I will note that the Zealots and the Maccabees, the Qumran Sect of the Dead Sea Scrolls were all essentially the " Church of the Old Testament". And thus It and the Early Christian Church, were linked entities.

Im not finished working out all the details, of course, and i will not go much into details anyway given that this is a political forum, other than to write that in Modern times we are burdened with the existence of an Oligarchy that have their familial roots with the successors of Alexander in the eastern mediterranean.

Another thing, which i do want to discuss further, is that the conditions of Jewish Exile were such that the conditions of Israel's return to the Holy Land can only replicate the spiritual and political conditions of the time of the Maccabees and of Jesus Christ.

Christ Jesus was not Crucified by religious and righteous Jews, but at the behest of the wicked, the apostates described in the Books of the Maccabees. So i continue with 1 Maccabees, and draw attention to certain verses in bold:

[

11 In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.
12 So this device pleased them well.
13 Then certain of the people were so forward herein, that they went to the king, who gave them licence to do after the ordinances of the heathen:
14 Whereupon they built a place of exercise at Jerusalem according to the customs of the heathen:
15 And made themselves uncircumcised, and forsook the holy covenant, and joined themselves to the heathen, and were sold to do mischief.
16 Now when the kingdom was established before Antiochus, he thought to reign over Egypt that he might have the dominion of two realms.
17 Wherefore he entered into Egypt with a great multitude, with chariots, and elephants, and horsemen, and a great navy,
18 And made war against Ptolemee king of Egypt: but Ptolemee was afraid of him, and fled; and many were wounded to death.
19 Thus they got the strong cities in the land of Egypt and he took the spoils thereof.
20 And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude,
21 And entered proudly into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof,
22 And the table of the shewbread, and the pouring vessels, and the vials. and the censers of gold, and the veil, and the crown, and the golden ornaments that were before the temple, all which he pulled off.
23 He took also the silver and the gold, and the precious vessels: also he took the hidden treasures which he found.
24 And when he had taken all away, he went into his own land, having made a great massacre, and spoken very proudly.
25 Therefore there was a great mourning in Israel, in every place where they were;
26 So that the princes and elders mourned, the virgins and young men were made feeble, and the beauty of women was changed.
27 Every bridegroom took up lamentation, and she that sat in the marriage chamber was in heaviness,
28 The land also was moved for the inhabitants thereof, and all the house of Jacob was covered with confusion.
29 And after two years fully expired the king sent his chief collector of tribute unto the cities of Juda, who came unto Jerusalem with a great multitude,
30 And spake peaceable words unto them, but all was deceit: for when they had given him credence, he fell suddenly upon the city, and smote it very sore, and destroyed much people of Israel.
31 And when he had taken the spoils of the city, he set it on fire, and pulled down the houses and walls thereof on every side.
32 But the women and children took they captive, and possessed the cattle.
33 Then builded they the city of David with a great and strong wall, and with mighty towers, and made it a strong hold for them.
34 And they put therein a sinful nation, wicked men, and fortified themselves therein.
35 They stored it also with armour and victuals, and when they had gathered together the spoils of Jerusalem, they laid them up there, and so they became a sore snare:
36 For it was a place to lie in wait against the sanctuary, and an evil adversary to Israel.
37 Thus they shed innocent blood on every side of the sanctuary, and defiled it:
38 inasmuch that the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled because of them: whereupon the city was made an habitation of strangers, and became strange to those that were born in her; and her own children left her.
39 Her sanctuary was laid waste like a wilderness, her feasts were turned into mourning, her sabbaths into reproach her honour into contempt.
40 As had been her glory, so was her dishonour increased, and her excellency was turned into mourning.
41 Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people,
42 And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king.
43 Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath.
44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land,
45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days:
46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people:
47 Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts:
48 That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleanness and profanation:
49 To the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances.
50 And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king, he said, he should die.
51 In the selfsame manner wrote he to his whole kingdom, and appointed overseers over all the people, commanding the cities of Juda to sacrifice, city by city.
52 Then many of the people were gathered unto them, to wit every one that forsook the law; and so they committed evils in the land;
53 And drove the Israelites into secret places, even wheresoever they could flee for succour.
54 Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
55 And burnt incense at the doors of their houses, and in the streets.
56 And when they had rent in pieces the books of the law which they found, they burnt them with fire.
57 And whosoever was found with any the book of the testament, or if any committed to the law, the king's commandment was, that they should put him to death.
58 Thus did they by their authority unto the Israelites every month, to as many as were found in the cities.
59 Now the five and twentieth day of the month they did sacrifice upon the idol altar, which was upon the altar of God.
60 At which time according to the commandment they put to death certain women, that had caused their children to be circumcised.
61 And they hanged the infants about their necks, and rifled their houses, and slew them that had circumcised them.
62 Howbeit many in Israel were fully resolved and confirmed in themselves not to eat any unclean thing.
63 Wherefore the rather to die, that they might not be defiled with meats, and that they might not profane the holy covenant: so then they died.
64 And there was very great wrath upon Israel"

Now compare to Book of Apocalypse Chapter 12:

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Book of St Daniel Chapter 9, 70 weeks prophesy:

24Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy25And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. 26And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Book of St Daniel Chapter 7 excerpt:

I wondered greatly about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

28 “This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”

I'm thinking that its about the same general era, the same 3 and a half years, and when Our Lord was in Egypt.

[Hakeer]

When you are done with your revisionist history about Jesus being alive in 164 BCE, I have a suggestion for our next topic.

It also comes from that first or second century BC. It has been argued that the QAnon movement has similarities to Gnosticism in that it alleges an invisible “deep state” above what we see on the surface in geopolitics. To that extent, it is like your own conspiracy theory that there is a unbroken line from the Greeks of that time to a bunch of Greek oligarchs who control American politics.

Anyway, here is a quote that gives the flavor of linkage between QAnon and Gnosticism…

“By comparing QAnon with Christian liberation theology movements, it is possible to better understand the movement’s connections with political extremism and aggression. Strongly connected to evangelical fundamentalist theology and the US socio-political landscape, QAnon Christian extremism conceptualises the world in apocalyptic/millennialist terms by portraying an ultimate battle between the forces of good and evil. QAnon conceptualises a world where the oppressed are promised salvation by God and Jesus. Salvation comes in the form of a religious socio-political struggle to defeat the oppressors and achieve freedom. The former US President Donald Trump is the ultimate representation of this struggle that can be carried out by engaging in political activism, such as protesting against Covid-19 health mandates, and violent acts such as the 2021 US Capitol Storming. In this context, support for the former US President Donald Trump does not result from mere political conviction but rather from an extremist theological interpretation of reality that sees in Trump a liberator and fighter siding with Jesus against the devil.
These findings encourage an attentive critique of the literature on QAnon’s religious dimensions, moving towards a clearer categorisation of QAnon as a religious phenomenon. The symbolism conveyed in the images suggests QAnon can best be understood as a pseudo-Christian extremist movement which shares commonalities with US evangelicalism and liberation theology. The application of liberation theology illustrates the connection between QAnon’s religious and socio-political themes, shedding light on why QAnon followers have engaged in political violence. Liberation theologies transform the religiosity of the oppressed into socio-political activism against the oppressors. Because QAnon affiliates see the oppressor as an evil entity, the incarnation of Satan on earth, they see themselves as religiously and politically legitimised to use potentially violent means. The pursuit of liberation is the natural outcome of this religious-inspired socio-political view.
However, labels such as evangelicalism and liberation theology need to be used carefully and with qualification. QAnon visual imagery shares elements with Christian evangelicalism such as Biblical literalism, crucicentrism and a focus on active political engagement, but expresses them in radially differing ways. It does not share an evangelical emphasis on conversion. Its main difference with liberation theologies is in political orientation. Liberation theologies have been mainly influenced by far-left ideologies like Marxism, while QAnon can be linked mainly to the far-right. QAnon visuals also spread antisemitism, theorising a spiritual and physical battle between the allegedly Jewish satanic ‘deep state’ aiming to destroy righteous Christians and God’s devotes.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 5241228744

[annatar1914]

When you are done with your revisionist history about Jesus being alive in 164 BCE, I have a suggestion for our next topic.

It also comes from that first or second century BC. It has been argued that the QAnon movement has similarities to Gnosticism in that it alleges an invisible “deep state” above what we see on the surface in geopolitics. To that extent, it is like your own conspiracy theory that there is a unbroken line from the Greeks of that time to a bunch of Greek oligarchs who control American politics.

Anyway, here is a quote that gives the flavor of linkage between QAnon and Gnosticism…

“By comparing QAnon with Christian liberation theology movements, it is possible to better understand the movement’s connections with political extremism and aggression. Strongly connected to evangelical fundamentalist theology and the US socio-political landscape, QAnon Christian extremism conceptualises the world in apocalyptic/millennialist terms by portraying an ultimate battle between the forces of good and evil. QAnon conceptualises a world where the oppressed are promised salvation by God and Jesus. Salvation comes in the form of a religious socio-political struggle to defeat the oppressors and achieve freedom. The former US President Donald Trump is the ultimate representation of this struggle that can be carried out by engaging in political activism, such as protesting against Covid-19 health mandates, and violent acts such as the 2021 US Capitol Storming. In this context, support for the former US President Donald Trump does not result from mere political conviction but rather from an extremist theological interpretation of reality that sees in Trump a liberator and fighter siding with Jesus against the devil.
These findings encourage an attentive critique of the literature on QAnon’s religious dimensions, moving towards a clearer categorisation of QAnon as a religious phenomenon. The symbolism conveyed in the images suggests QAnon can best be understood as a pseudo-Christian extremist movement which shares commonalities with US evangelicalism and liberation theology. The application of liberation theology illustrates the connection between QAnon’s religious and socio-political themes, shedding light on why QAnon followers have engaged in political violence. Liberation theologies transform the religiosity of the oppressed into socio-political activism against the oppressors. Because QAnon affiliates see the oppressor as an evil entity, the incarnation of Satan on earth, they see themselves as religiously and politically legitimised to use potentially violent means. The pursuit of liberation is the natural outcome of this religious-inspired socio-political view.
However, labels such as evangelicalism and liberation theology need to be used carefully and with qualification. QAnon visual imagery shares elements with Christian evangelicalism such as Biblical literalism, crucicentrism and a focus on active political engagement, but expresses them in radially differing ways. It does not share an evangelical emphasis on conversion. Its main difference with liberation theologies is in political orientation. Liberation theologies have been mainly influenced by far-left ideologies like Marxism, while QAnon can be linked mainly to the far-right. QAnon visuals also spread antisemitism, theorising a spiritual and physical battle between the allegedly Jewish satanic ‘deep state’ aiming to destroy righteous Christians and God’s devotes.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 5241228744

@Potemkin and @Verv ;

@Hakeer :

There is no " done with" this topic as such. Nor do i characterize Christ as living in 164 " BCE" or say that these Oligarchical families are " Greek" or anything else really in an ethnic sense, they're pretty rootless cosmopolitan by design actually...

" QAnon" is something i have little interest in discussing as a seperate issue, my thinking on Gnosticism as a political temptation owes more to the scholarly inquiries of researchers and thinkers like Thomas Molnar:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Molnar

And Eric Voegelin:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Voegelin

Or even Jean Baudrillaud:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Baudrillard

Than any thinking about Evangelical Protestant/ Christian Zionist dipshittery like " QAnon".

Its all such Poshlost. A modernist condition of Hyperreality brought about by Theatre and Representation.

Of course that is what all Evil is, an ontological condition as well as existential where Image and Symbol are mistaken for the Reality and Essence of a thing. Misunderstood and Misappropriated.

Bet you never thought youd read me speaking about Kitsch as a symptom of a spiritual malady, right?

And this is the sort of thing im getting to quote precisely with my Maccabean reflections and historical revision.

After all, from 2nd Maccabees about the wicked High Priest Jason:

10
When Jason received the king’s approval and came into office, he immediately initiated his compatriots into the Greek way of life.
11
He set aside the royal concessions granted to the Jews through the mediation of John, father of Eupolemus* (that Eupolemus who would later go on an embassy to the Romans to establish friendship and alliance with them); he set aside the lawful practices and introduced customs contrary to the law.b
12
c With perverse delight he established a gymnasium* at the very foot of the citadel, where he induced the noblest young men to wear the Greek hat.
13
The craze for Hellenism and the adoption of foreign customs reached such a pitch, through the outrageous wickedness of Jason, the renegade and would-be high priest,
14
that the priests no longer cared about the service of the altar. Disdaining the temple and neglecting the sacrifices, they hastened, at the signal for the games, to take part in the unlawful exercises at the arena.
15
What their ancestors had regarded as honors they despised; what the Greeks esteemed as glory they prized highly.
16
For this reason they found themselves in serious trouble: the very people whose manner of life they emulated, and whom they desired to imitate in everything, became their enemies and oppressors.
17
It is no light matter to flout the laws of God, as subsequent events will show.

Let us say that perhaps my revision is not as extensive for purposes of argument, as originally to my mind at first.

But the crux of my point about the Christianity of the Israel of God and Christianity being Jewish, it remains. No Maccabees to fight for God and His People, no Incarnation of the Son of God.

And profane history is without a doubt in need of revision. The evidence for the standard narrative is flimsier than one might think.

[annatar1914]

I will absolutely tie this in with the rest of what i'm writing about, i promise. But i'm going to write once again about the Antichrist system, which is Lawlessness.

Or as Murray Rothbard called it: " Anarcho-Capitalism". He said (as i've quoted elsewhere) approvingly that:

“

capitalism is the fullest expression of anarchism, and anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism"

I however affirm the exact contrary for the modern era: that statism is the fullest expression of socialism, and that socialism is the fullest expression of statism. And i write that approvingly. The State flourishes best when there is no trace of the private ownership of the economic means of production, and that Socialism cannot exist without government to be the sword and shield of workplace democracy.

Furthermore, any Republic has a natural tendency by its proper constitutional workings towards Socialism, towards cooperation rather than competition.

Civilization indeed marches inevitably towards Anarcho Capitalism, while the more primative state works towards less economic and social " liberty", towards what modernity believes to be " barbarism"

[Verv]

@Potemkin , and @Verv , and others:

Now, having gathered together some of my research data points, im going to bring in another seemingly unrelated idea and bring the threads together. But first i want to mention this book by Julian Jaynes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ori ... meral_Mind

But my idea is a bit more radical, in that i believe that most of humanity is still in this bicameral state of being and does not have the self aware consciousness as described in Jaynes book. Furthermore, that this lack of awareness has ebbed and flowed in historical times and the bicameral mind is making something of a comeback as the default majority setting.

But what does this have to do with my historical revisionism?

Plenty as it turns out. People for the most part dont believe in the concept of History as such, because many do not possess the self aware conciousness that allows them to place themselves in concrete linear and progressive historical time.

Why that is so is what brings everything together that im writing about.

This is interestign content but I disagree.

Let me begin by saying that I do not accept what Jaynes is saying to begin with.

We know that the writing styles of the Old Testament change drastically, going from Hebrew poetic meter in huge chunks that we consider now consider prose, into the more literal poetry & lyricism of the Psalms, into lists and codes in parts of Leviticus and Numbers, into very factual, third person narrative, and into the vastly different voices provided to us by later prophets outside of the Pentateuch...

Of course, his focus is that only a portion of the Old Testament lacks introspection, indicating a bicameral mind but these are portions that are written in such a style where these aspects are irrelevant entirely. They involve narratives about creation and a historical account of the exile of the Hebrews and the formation of the state of Israel. It wouldn't fit the format for that.

I'd also emphasize that even when he digs up evidence of the 'bicameral mind' in things like the Iliad he does not take into account that this was also in a radically different format - it was something to be performed for people live by traveling bards. How hard it is to convey some kind of introspection in such a context...

And how strange it is to imagine that there were people all in the ancient Greek world listening to the Iliad or hearing rabbis speak about the story where Moses struck an Egyptian slave driver dead for nearly beating a Jew to death, and they were not experiencing intense introspection themselves, but instead just "sensing" and then thinking "Oh, I'm getting God-feelings & experiencing commands right now...!".

But, of course, the claims are unfalsifiable.

It's also interesting to think about what it would mean to apply this globally.

The very first words of the Rg Veda, Hinduisms oldest text that survived orally for the longest time, and the first line of ti is

'I worship Fire, the purohita '

This statement jumps out at me.

Declarations like this are incredibly introspective - they talk about what this person does, what they regard as worthy of veneration. Yet, we would not think of it as introspective, because it comes off as just the declaration of an act... But behind every act there is great introspection.

There are also very powerful lines in the Bible like this:

Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

(Exodus 32:11)

I assume that this would not pass Jaynes' sniff test, but it's a profound question about 'what are we doing that is wrong?'

That's the definition of introspection - to contemplate one's own doings and whether they are matching up. I suppose the only reason this does not satisfy the criteria, though, is because God answers...

So we have this semi-tautology here:

- Jaynes says people were just assuming God commanded them things.
- He looks into texts that were fundamental Christian/Jewish (Torah) and pagan (Iliad) texts.
- "When they ask profound questions, godhead answers them. These are bicameral brains."

This is just not very good stuff, I think.

We have no reason to believe that these people were that much more different than us other than in terms of how they experienced the world as having much less technology and a different social structure.

I also think people are very introspective, even if they lack deep, penetrative insights about what they are doing, or lack a lot of the 'brainpower' we congratulate ourselves for having erroneously.

The thing about people tending to fail to manifest something profound or pleasing to the intellectual, and thus living as an NPC or, in this case, bicameral brained, has a lot more to do with their their lack of exercising free will.

They allow their nous to become corrupted and do not take active steps to re-purify it.

You see this among intellectuals as well. We just don't call them on it because they could maybe say soemthing insightful about contemporary politics or present us some "intellectual" material with a "clever" interpretation. Nonetheless, they lack willpower and are not manifesting God in their lives...

While the "stupid" person who lacks a lot of intelligence and understanding of the secular world may be manifesting a moral lifestyle through introspective struggle against their vices, but because they are not shouting about Trump or "the downfall of civilization" or whatever, we are not paying attention.

[annatar1914]

This is interestign content but I disagree.

Let me begin by saying that I do not accept what Jaynes is saying to begin with.

We know that the writing styles of the Old Testament change drastically, going from Hebrew poetic meter in huge chunks that we consider now consider prose, into the more literal poetry & lyricism of the Psalms, into lists and codes in parts of Leviticus and Numbers, into very factual, third person narrative, and into the vastly different voices provided to us by later prophets outside of the Pentateuch...

Of course, his focus is that only a portion of the Old Testament lacks introspection, indicating a bicameral mind but these are portions that are written in such a style where these aspects are irrelevant entirely. They involve narratives about creation and a historical account of the exile of the Hebrews and the formation of the state of Israel. It wouldn't fit the format for that.

I'd also emphasize that even when he digs up evidence of the 'bicameral mind' in things like the Iliad he does not take into account that this was also in a radically different format - it was something to be performed for people live by traveling bards. How hard it is to convey some kind of introspection in such a context...

And how strange it is to imagine that there were people all in the ancient Greek world listening to the Iliad or hearing rabbis speak about the story where Moses struck an Egyptian slave driver dead for nearly beating a Jew to death, and they were not experiencing intense introspection themselves, but instead just "sensing" and then thinking "Oh, I'm getting God-feelings & experiencing commands right now...!".

But, of course, the claims are unfalsifiable.

It's also interesting to think about what it would mean to apply this globally.

The very first words of the Rg Veda, Hinduisms oldest text that survived orally for the longest time, and the first line of ti is



This statement jumps out at me.

Declarations like this are incredibly introspective - they talk about what this person does, what they regard as worthy of veneration. Yet, we would not think of it as introspective, because it comes off as just the declaration of an act... But behind every act there is great introspection.

There are also very powerful lines in the Bible like this:



(Exodus 32:11)

I assume that this would not pass Jaynes' sniff test, but it's a profound question about 'what are we doing that is wrong?'

That's the definition of introspection - to contemplate one's own doings and whether they are matching up. I suppose the only reason this does not satisfy the criteria, though, is because God answers...

So we have this semi-tautology here:

- Jaynes says people were just assuming God commanded them things.
- He looks into texts that were fundamental Christian/Jewish (Torah) and pagan (Iliad) texts.
- "When they ask profound questions, godhead answers them. These are bicameral brains."

This is just not very good stuff, I think.

We have no reason to believe that these people were that much more different than us other than in terms of how they experienced the world as having much less technology and a different social structure.

I also think people are very introspective, even if they lack deep, penetrative insights about what they are doing, or lack a lot of the 'brainpower' we congratulate ourselves for having erroneously.

The thing about people tending to fail to manifest something profound or pleasing to the intellectual, and thus living as an NPC or, in this case, bicameral brained, has a lot more to do with their their lack of exercising free will.

They allow their nous to become corrupted and do not take active steps to re-purify it.

You see this among intellectuals as well. We just don't call them on it because they could maybe say soemthing insightful about contemporary politics or present us some "intellectual" material with a "clever" interpretation. Nonetheless, they lack willpower and are not manifesting God in their lives...

While the "stupid" person who lacks a lot of intelligence and understanding of the secular world may be manifesting a moral lifestyle through introspective struggle against their vices, but because they are not shouting about Trump or "the downfall of civilization" or whatever, we are not paying attention.

@Verv :

I believe my friend that there's (ironic considering the subject matter) a communication breakdown, and that is entirely my fault. I failed to follow up with the more important part insofar as im concerned.

And indeed it probably will say more about my ideosyncratic thinking when i aver that people weren't having "hallucinations". I think that here was a slow gradual degenerative decline in a once common and natural biological receptivity or faculty in the brain towards communication with and perception of the supernatural or praeturnatural world.

They were recieving messages from real beings. That's what i'm saying, some of the thinking i've done concerning consciousness and the mind/body problem, more specific inquiries about the darkening of the Nous as expressed by Fr. John Romanides: the Fall as a " Neuro Biological disorder". Psychopathy in the Orthodox Christian sense.

And so no i dont think most people have much of a devoloped and introspective consciousness, much of a self awareness nor of conscience, and that this once common faculty in the brain is ever more vestigial in persons as time goes on, some more than others.

And i therefore need to note as an aside that i believe this lack of self awareness or consciousness has absolutely nothing to do with one's level of intellectual cognition or lack thereof.

Nor does it entirely relate to my aforementioned Traducianism, with the physical transmission from conception of Original/Ancestral Sin, save by one more example of our very real physical as well as spiritual anthropological and ontological calamity of the Fall.

Is it connected to the natural levels of DMT in the Brain? The calcification of the Pineal Gland? I don't know.

What i do think is that this relative lack of this psychic connection biologically, it contributed to the development of civilization. People heard voices of what they believed to be their own self, but nonetheless became more dependant or reliant on cognition, not reflective introspection.

[Hakeer]

I will absolutely tie this in with the rest of what i'm writing about, i promise. But i'm going to write once again about the Antichrist system, which is Lawlessness.

Or as Murray Rothbard called it: " Anarcho-Capitalism". He said (as i've quoted elsewhere) approvingly that:

“

I however affirm the exact contrary for the modern era: that statism is the fullest expression of socialism, and that socialism is the fullest expression of statism. And i write that approvingly. The State flourishes best when there is no trace of the private ownership of the economic means of production, and that Socialism cannot exist without government to be the sword and shield of workplace democracy.

Furthermore, any Republic has a natural tendency by its proper constitutional workings towards Socialism, towards cooperation rather than competition.

Civilization indeed marches inevitably towards Anarcho Capitalism, while the more primative state works towards less economic and social " liberty", towards what modernity believes to be " barbarism"

“Properly working constitution” is the key phrase. Less and less, in this country we have a properly functioning constitution when the president, Republican congressmen, and Supreme Court justices put hands on the Bible to take an oath to defend the constitution and then trash the constitution as soon as they assume office. This is making the U.S. trend away from socialism and democracy and toward fascism.

As far as your communism, you can’t possibly have a command economy for a country this size and 300+ million population without a big federal government to TRY to administer all the production and distribution of goods and services. China and USSR were good examples, and you saw both transition into a more mixed economy. I also hate suppression of free speech, free assembly, free press, and single-party communist rule with no free and fair elections. That applies to all other communist countries in the world.

[annatar1914]

“Properly working constitution” is the key phrase. Less and less, in this country we have a properly functioning constitution when the president, Republican congressmen, and Supreme Court justices put hands on the Bible to take an oath to defend the constitution and then trash the constitution as soon as they assume office. This is making the U.S. trend away from socialism and democracy and toward fascism.

As far as your communism, you can’t possibly have a command economy for a country this size and 300+ million population without a big federal government to TRY to administer all the production and distribution of goods and services. China and USSR were good examples, and you saw both transition into a more mixed economy. I also hate suppression of free speech, free assembly, free press, and single-party communist rule with no free and fair elections. That applies to all other communist countries in the world.

@Potemkin , and @Verv as well:

@Hakeer :

It is what i personally believe to be the regular workings of the US Constitutional system which is innately dialectical and revolutionary, and therefore tending towards Socialism, the common good.

The American Founding Fathers did better than they could ever have understood, and in this i see the design of a watchful Divine Providence.

In this approbation of the founders of the American system, i am indebted to the almost forgotten but nonetheless correct Orestes Brownson:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orestes_Brownson

....Witthout his fears of Socialism ( which he formerly had held to) which were of its often atheistic partisans in any case.

America had the opportunity with its unique political system to break free of the dead hand of Western European Civilization, being as that American political system is fully and singularly in accord with reality itself whereas Western Civilization most emphatically is not in accord with reality in any way whatsoever.

It being Evil, tends towards Anarcho Capitalism politically.

Your fears are justified up to a point about these private concerns with their money and power, but the machinery of the system will continue to be the bone in their throat until they go the route of the Confederacy and Secede, indeed as Murray Rothbard himself noted approvingly. But then they can be dealt with as Lincoln did to them, as rebels and insurrectionists. America then is where it has to be fought and contained, whether or not it will is another matter.

Indeed, this is the answer to your last concerns, about Communism, free speech, and a command economy.

Free Speech is fine, as long as wrong speech is countered with the truth, and private wealth isnt perversely then given the status of protected speech as well. This will have to be changed.

Given that the earliest theoretical precursers of the internet came from Communist society, there's no reason why a Socialist command economy cannot do as well or better than a Capitalist one, but that discussion is beyond the scope and purview of this thread.

Which goes back to my original point, that all of human history since the Fall is the growing clash between what results in Anarchist Capitalism, versus Socialism.

America, lacking Orthodoxy but having a political system entirely " Orthodox" because fully in accord with reality, is thus necessarily the battleground where Anarcho Capitalism has come to the fore and threatens mankind. There are no guarantees even with a perfect political system that Evil can be contained, if the spiritual foundation is lacking.

Russia, having the influence of Orthodoxy is by war and revolution always innately if sometimes unconciously always historically fighting for Socialism, and is thus where humanity makes its stand against the entropic chaos of Anarchist-Capitalist ideology.