[akritas]

FYROM’s irredentist policy towards Greece from 1944 to the present, a policy that is in flagrant breach of the Interim Agreement signed by the two parties in 1995 expressly calling on them to put an end to any mutual expressions of irredentism. The pseudo-irredentist propaganda of Skopje, by which it essentially disputes Greece’s sovereignty over the northern part of the country, will be promoted with a barrage of advertisements on the American media, and with the publication of law suits by so called “Aegean Macedonians” against the Greek state as wrote Mihalis Ignatiou in Ethnos Newspaper article.

'Aegean Macedonia' is a Slav Macedonian irredentist term used to refer to the region of Macedonia in Greece, in the context of a 'United Macedonia'. The origins of the term seem to be rooted in the 1940s but its modern usage is widely considered ambiguous and irredentist. The term has occasionally appeared on maps circulated in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), which envisioned Greek Macedonia (referred to as "Aegean Macedonia") as part of a "Greater Macedonia", and is regarded as a challenge of of the legitimacy of Greek sovereignity over the area.

The historical dogma, taking shape in FYROM, backtracks the origins of this modern Slavmacedonians—the Makedonci— a full millennium to include the ancient Macedonians (5th century BC). This revisionist historical dogma, is not limited to encroaching upon the identity of a Hellenic people of the classical times.

It aims at expanding the boundaries of the historical “taktovina” (fatherland) of the “Makedonci” to include wide regions of Greece and Bulgaria. It is well known, that for decades the classrooms and school textbooks of history in FYROM have been adorned with maps portraying Macedonia’s “geographic and ethnic”, i.e. Slavic boundaries extending all the way to Mount Olympus and Chalkidiki, in Greek Macedonia as well as to the Pirin district of Bulgaria.

FYROM irredentist main policy headings were, are and will be...

-Renaming Greek Macedonia as ‘Aegean Macedonia’, and representing it as terra irredenta, as an integral part of FYROM.

-Claiming the existence of an oppressed ‘Macedonian minority’ within Greece.

-Appropriating emblems and symbols, and the Greek cultural legacy in general (with Ancient Macedonia as the focal point).

As long as FYROM plays at being a crusader for nationalist fantasies, it will sink in the political morass. And as FYROM sinks, it will act spasmodically and rather ridiculously.

This problem does not only concern Greece, against which Gruevski now makes various unfounded but dangerous claims, but Bulgaria also and the entire region. Europe and the US should not only discourage FYROM officials, but are obliged to stop these , now that it is still early.

[Independent_Srpska]

Well, yes... I am very well aware of this problem....

But, why is the US media supporting FYRM?

I mean, why is this:

will be promoted with a barrage of advertisements on the American media

[noemon]

They just buy, pages in American magazines and newspapers, nothing to do with the American government per se. The days when American officials would vindicate FYROM are pretty much over with Obama. And even since the late stages of the Bush administration, American officials of the Republicans had changed the tune and were calling FYROM to cease the propaganda and to sit on the table with Greece, instead of acting like the ostrich.

[akritas]

Independent_Srpska the FYROM’s political leadership is in the process of transferring its dispute with Athens firstly to the USA and secondly to Canada, with the objective of changing the breadth and the depth of the UN negotiations, which are currently being held under the auspices of Mathew Nimitz, and of “isolating” Greece as a country which severely violates human rights.

To achieve these pseudo-irredentist aims, a quasi-legal amorphous mechanism involving US Government employees, diplomats, businessmen and analysts has been established, with input from State Department and Pentagon operatives. All the above decribed (with names) from Mihalis Ignatiou in Ethnos Newspaper article with the oiginal title of the article is .......The godfathers of the provocations

[Vanasalus]

Is it only me, or are there others too who mysteriously feel more sympathetic towards Macedonians(*) whenever a new thread about name dispute is opened here in Pofo.

(*)Sorry Greek dudes. I do not know the “proper” title of the people, populating the country, you name Fyrom.

[Ombrageux]

Greek diasporids really just shouldn't be allowed on this forum...

Macedonia is an irrelevant country which poses no threat to any country, let alone one like Greece, which has the entire NATO alliance standing behind it.

If many Greeks feel the need to go historical about "FYROM" and its supposedly expansionist tendencies, that is just a reflection of their insecurity and pettiness.

[Anothroskon]

Is it only me

Nope. Just you and the rest of the antihellenist contigent here. Some might also suspect that the fact you are a Turkish nationalist, indoctrinated in the kemalofascist system of Turdey might, just might, have something to do with it as well.

Liked your attempt at Greek baiting too btw. Very subtle, very you. Point is however that it doesn't matter how xenoi call them, least of all antihellenic racists, but how Greeks call them. And we will never call them Macedonians. For us it will always be Constantinople, Smyrna and Aivali. We named all these places when Turks and Slavs were still living in Asia, if anything it is you who should be using Greek names for your cities, which by and large you Turks do (Yrebzon, Izmir, Istanbul, Aivalik-all these turkish names are derived from ours). Now if only the Slavs could follow suit.

Greek diasporids really just shouldn't be allowed on this forum...

Don't judge him too harshly. Some of his best friends are probably Greek. Which isn't as unlikely as it sounds. None of his "friends" actually consider themselves such. Or are even aware of his existence in the case of his "girlfriend".

Nope. Just you and the rest of the antihellenist contigent here.

[Ombrageux]

It's not racist, it's literally a rite of passage on this forum for every single Greek to at least once shrilly prattle on about the Global FYROMian conspiracy to annihilate Hellas.

[Doomhammer]

(*)Sorry Greek dudes. I do not know the “proper” title of the people, populating the country, you name Fyrom.

"Slavo-Skopjian(s)" is the word, I believe.

Noemon, look I am not raising any objections or even condemning the existence of the thread... but could please tell Anothroskon to behave? I will not remain indifferent to his incessant trolling on this or any other forum.

I expect an answer before six o'clock on the 30th.

[noemon]

but could please tell Anothroskon to behave? I will not remain indifferent to his incessant trolling on this or any other forum.

Doomhammer, i cannot tell anybody to behave. Do what you may do. I dont care.

If many Greeks feel the need to go historical about "FYROM" and its supposedly expansionist tendencies, that is just a reflection of their insecurity and pettiness.

Despite the fact that you are not a person, that might just even grab anything along your way. I will tell you for the last time:

This is a dispute at early stages and during peace time. This is Greece, trying to set things in such a way, so that even Greece will not have to occupy that country, in the end. If a hostility breaks out as it did in that country in 2001, there is no fear of what Greece will do or how successful she will be, but Greece does not want it to reach that stage, and instead wants this to be solved on the UN negotiating table. And you think that this is Greek "nationalism and pettyness"? Seriously, get a grip on yourself.

It is not about fearing FYROM, it is about not having disputes unresolved. Greece wanting to continue the resolution of this matter under the UN and according to the Interim agreement is the mutually agreed course of action, the legalistic and liberal way. Instead of solving it herself, which would be much easier for us. It is a blessing that Greece stays within the Interim agreement and the UN negotiations, that illustrates the exact opposite of what you wrote, and it is a blessing that Greece has adopted such a doctrine of isolationism and liberalism in her international affairs. All her disputes, (Aegean continental shelf, Cyprus, FYROM) are proposed by Greece to be resolved by international institutions, like the Hague, the UN and the European Court in the proper and international manner. Turkey ofc disagrees, and FYROM evades. It does not take 2 brains to understand why both are mutual friends, and parrots for each other, and why they do not allow such courses of actions.

It should also be noted, that your attitude is the same in every thread and that it is due to your inability to even manage to write a proper sentence. While Vanasalus is a Turkish nationalist, who does the same again and again.

It doesnt matter, you can parrot your insecurities(of your serial failure in matters you cannot grasp, and even Stipe has noted your total ignorance and petty behavior) as you like, am done with these threads.

[Anothroskon]

I expect an answer before six o'clock on the 30th.

Or what? You do know that this is an internet forum and you can't in fact invade and ethnically cleanse any Greeks you find annoying, don't you?

[Anothroskon]

It's not racist,

Yes, well post that

Greek diasporids really just shouldn't be allowed on this forum...

your word carries a little less weight than you might think on the whole anti-racism front.

[Doomhammer]

Or what? You do know that this is an internet forum and you can't in fact invade and ethnically cleanse any Greeks you find annoying, don't you?

I don't expect you appreciate humor since it is clearly beyond your capacity.

[peter_co]

Instead of solving it herself, which would be much easier for us. It is a blessing that Greece stays within the Interim agreement and the UN negotiations

Are you seriously praising Greece for for its restraint in not attacking Macedonia in order to force it to change its name? That's like praising a man who is walking down the street for not swinging with a hatchet at another because the latter likes to go by his middle name Drew instead of his first name Johnny.

[Anothroskon]

Are you seriously praising Greece for for its restraint in not attacking Macedonia in order to force it to change its name? That's like praising a man who is walking down the street for not swinging with a hatchet at another because the latter likes to go by his middle name Drew instead of his first name Johnny

It all depends on context. THere is a great deal of precedent for just that sort of behaviour in our neighbourhood*. Most of it goes by the name of Turkey.

*Not in America btw which is why I understand you might not be fully informed on it. It's across the big "lake" called Atlantic (name's quite similar to Atlanta if you need an aide-memoire). Not sure if you heard about it. It's called the Ball-Cans and it's in the southeastern part of a big "island" called U-Rope. Hope that helped.

[Anothroskon]

I don't expect you appreciate humor since it is clearly beyond your capacity.

Hey, if you were joking I take it back. It really wasn't obvious though.

[noemon]

Are you seriously praising Greece for for its restraint in not attacking Macedonia in order to force it to change its name?

If you had any knowledge on this matter, you wouldnt make these silly syllogisms.

a) The name is simply the top of the iceberg.
b) FYROM has an active policy of actual irredentism manifested in the name.
c) Greece can resume anytime its previous position(withdrawal from the UN negotiations and put an embargo, this is in fact the direction that FYROM is trying to impose to the case and hence the "spasmodically" and "ridiculously" by undermining the UN as seen in the article posted by Akritas and the negotiator Nimetz as seen a month ago)
d) The man who took this position(Papandreou) is one of the most revered Greek politician in European circles, and awarded various awards(Like the Swedish Polar Star) for his contribution in international affairs and peace for his efforts in the Middle-East.
e) Papandreou's doctrine is active interventionism. Turkey threatens for War? War it is then, he had mobilized the army for war during his terms a couple of times and only the US had managed to diffuse the situation. FYROM mentions borders and its well-crafted semantics of "Aegeans", and "United", starve them.

---

f) Greece now has abandoned this doctrine, and turned into an isolationist and liberalist. And is seen(by DT, yourself) as "nationalist and petty". This is an oxymoron. Your knee-jerk position that Greece should give them what they want, cause you fail to see, that the name is simply a manifestation of an active policy of irredentism that will be officially sanctioned in such a case and which only due to the lack of resources does not materialize, is your problem and utter lack of comprehension. Nor does this lack of resources in any way means that Greece should sanction it out of a knee-jerk assumption that countries are in any way required to be "gracious" to smaller countries.

Greece tries(and makes an effort) to solve this issue, while it is still very early, and is prepared to concede their name of "Macedonia" but with a qualifier(North, Slavic, whatever) for well known reasons, how is this nationalistic or whatever is beyond me. Also, this lack of overtones in Europe is merely superficial, and it does not in anyway mean that FYROM is not a hot bed of nationalism and a ticking time-bomb for Balkan affairs(as it has demonstrated aptly in 2001 and time and time again, with the public fire of Greek flags, Bulgarian statues, officially killing Afghan immigrants to get points in "the war on terror", while the case was uncovered that to get American attention they executed cold blood Afghan immigrants who they later dressed up as terrorists, a country who officially in its official websites has maps of their country extending all the way to Mt Olympus into Greece and so on and on), that should not proceed in solving its disputes within this peaceful environment that now characterizes Europe as it is required to do according to the agreements signed.

Btw Anothroskon, Peter_Co is Romanian and not American. He is just a populist who despite having read Stavrianos and having found him "very balanced and unbiased", and who(Stavrianos) encompasses the Greek position, he is still allegedly unable to grasp the matter.

[Vladimir]

what an issue
I say Macedonia should invade Greece and put an end to these claims against it. All power to the Slavs!

[Anothroskon]

I say Macedonia should invade Greece and put an end to these claims against it. All power to the Slavs!

Of all people, Slavs should be able to appreciate the Greeks side since it was they who gave them literacy, their alphabet and their religion*. Just a simple thank you will do though. Also any non-hairy females you might have available.

*OK, maybe not so much for that one. But the whole literacy thing more than makes up for it.

[Vladimir]

I would be glad to, I think Greece is great, but drop all these childish squabbles for god's sake! Who cares!

Also any non-hairy females you might have available.

huh