[Sayed Zakerya]

Dempsey

he polite warning from the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) is addressed to "residents of the area".

"Because of the terrorist actions carried by some terrorist figures out of the area of residence against the state of Israel, the IDF was forced to immediately respond and act inside your area of residence," it says.

"For your own safety you are required to leave the area immediately.

Oh ya. But to which direction & when. Where is the secure route & where is the safe zone. How IDF will spare our lives when we pass by his troops.
IDF leaflets had another target than saving lives. Panic that what they were looking for.
Mosques, Schools, Unrawa buildings,apartments & even ambulances were bombed.
They kill children. Is their any excuse for this!!

[Dempsey]

Brother Sayed, I don't think you're right. Though I can understand your anger

[Oxymoron]

You mean this one?

No one should use human shields that is a cowardly tactic not fit for warriors.

[War Angel]

IDF operation in Gaza tactical targets are confidential.

As they should be.

Neither Gaza civilians nor the whole world expected that brutal air strikes & bombing inside the city or in its neighbourhoods.

When Hamas operates from within civilian areas and uses civilians as cannon-fodder, yes, that is bound to happen. Expect it and fear it.

Unknowing what is going on in the city skirts prevented many from leaving the city.

Nothing is preventing anyone from leaving through the Arab side of Gaza... oh, wait, the Egyptians are shooting at Palestinians who try to cross the fence.

IDF bastards know that by creating a panic atmosphere within the Palestinians, their mission would be much easier irrespective of any moral or human restraints. They are planning the horror & panic to upset the Gazans against their rulers.

Indeed. Victory through fear, submission and deterrence.

These are Nazi warefare tactics.

The Nazis were exceptionally effective fighters.

IDF will pay the price for this merciless addressing of the Palestinians massacres sooner or later

Bring it on. So far, Hamas has only managed to kill ONE of our soldiers. We've killed over 500.

A state with the longest list of UN decisions violations.

... UN regulations brought on by the Arab league, etc. Doesn't mean shit.

A state with one of the bloodiest human rights violation record in the Post WW2 era.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were being serious.

Take a look at Africa, dude, or Asia. Hell - take a brief look at your own country.

Do you call this a civilized state?

I call this MY kind of a civlised state. If anything, we are TOO civilised. This is the Middle East, and perhaps we need to show a little less compassion for our enemies.

[Roland]

Wow. Been a long time. Good to be back.

I say both sides are way over the line at this point and we ("we" meaning "the international community", not that such a thing really exists these days) should put them both in time out.

[War Angel]

time out.

A 'time out' is exactly what Israel wants. We came because of the incessant rocket attacks - if those cease, we'd like nothing more than to go back to our lives. Sadly, nothing and no-one can guarantee this to us - and as usual, we must rely on ourselves..

[Noelnada]

Sadly, nothing and no-one can guarantee this to us - and as usual, we must rely on ourselves..

Well if you can accept that an international security force occupy Israel and Palestine and settle the UN partition plan, i can guarantee that every Arab nation will keep their words and normalize their relations with Israel and that the Palestinian authority made of Fatah/Hamas will do whatever is in its power to stop terrorists from harming Israeli citizens. This would of course take a lot of time and resources to rebuild and reinforce the Palestinian capacity to conduct police operations. And i'm sure that the Europeans would be pleased to see that their money is not spend on installations getting destroyed regularly.

Everyone would be happy i'm sure (except probably the AIPAC and extremist Israeli political parties).

[dudekebm]

Oh ya. But to which direction & when. Where is the secure route & where is the safe zone. How IDF will spare our lives when we pass by his troops.
IDF leaflets had another target than saving lives. Panic that what they were looking for.
Mosques, Schools, Unrawa buildings,apartments & even ambulances were bombed.
They kill children. Is their any excuse for this!!

Not necessarily. They're actually following the Geneva Conventions on safe zones. The article in particular is this Convention IV, Part II, Article 19:

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants and not yet handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

This basically also applies to any civilian installation. So basically if Hamas uses a school or mosque or hospital as a weapons cache or place to launch attacks it essentially loses its safe zone status and does become a legitimate military target.

My guess is the panic you're referring to is probably caused by Hamas militants saying "If you leave, you're a traitor and we will kill you." Actually Hamas is totally violating the Protocol Addition to Protocol I, Part IV, Article 51, #7.


7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.


On an editorial note (read: my opinion), Hamas (amongst other groups) has decided to use this strategy in violation of international law. Their reasoning I assume is that the Israelis would not retaliate for fear of killing children. I think this is mainly because they would lose in a normal honorable military conflict, but, by their actions, they are hardly honorable or worthy of praise now, are they? They are no brave fighters for the cause of Islam. I seriously doubt Khalid ibn al-Walid hid behind the elderly, the infirmed, women and children in his battles fighting for the forces of Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) or Saladin during his clashes with the Crusaders. I doubt the thought even entered their minds.

EDIT: My apologies. I spent so long doing this post and grabbing the appropriate GC references a lot of posts had passed so my post may be redundant here.

[redcarpet]

We came because of the incessant rocket attacks

Which happend once Israel broke the ceasefire on Nov5th by continuing the blockade and attacking Hamas 'gunmen' inside Gaza.

[Dempsey]

Sayed Zakerya

How IDF will spare our lives when we pass by his troops.

The troops "also regard a convoy of civilians as a real threat"

Last update - 09:03 07/01/2009

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053400.html

The same senior officer said that in the areas where his troops were operating, the civilians are fleeing.

"We saw homes where the meals were left uneaten. We see columns of women and children with white flags, and of course we let them pass toward Gaza City. On the other hand, every two hours there are intelligence warnings about a female suicide bomber in the area, so most of the soldiers also regard a convoy of civilians as a real threat."

From the field, officers are reporting that Hamas is preparing for a long-term struggle. In one area, soldiers spent the night in a building only to find the next day that an explosive device had been laid in the structure next door, designed to be set off by the troops tripping a wire.

In another case, soldiers found explosive devices hidden behind a piano, while in other instances, troops shot and killed would-be suicide bombers - whose corpses were laden with explosives.

[noemon]

dudekebm

Not necessarily. They're actually following the Geneva Conventions on safe zones. The article in particular is this Convention IV, Part II, Article 19:

How does that apply to the UN school? No combatants were found, no warning given. The IDF was given by the UN its coordinates so as to prevent such a thing, and the school was shelled.

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants and not yet handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

In complete violation of the article you just quoted.

As for Hamas intentionally directing civilians to war zones to be used as human shields, there is no evidence whatsoever. The presence of civilians in certain areas does not prove that they were taken there intentionally by militants to be used as human shields. Moreover there are no safe zones(another War Crime on the part of the Israel as an occupying force) in Gaza so this whole thing is moot, from top to bottom. In addition, certain videos have been posted already which do not constitute evidence as already seen, and as stated without safe zones established there is no argument to be made blaming Hamas of taking civilians out of the safe zone and into the war zone to become shields.

[NYYS]

If Israel made a mistake about Hamas being at the school, in my opinion the attack was wrong.
If Hamas were actually there, launching mortars, the attack was wrong.
If Hamas were not there, and Israel knew this, the attack was wrong.

Wow. You are Hamas' target propaganda audience.

[noemon]

First of all, NYYS, name the dude you are quoting so as to avoid confusion and misconceptions, secondly answer the question that I asked you, please.

[Sayed Zakerya]

When Hamas operates from within civilian areas and uses civilians as cannon-fodder, yes, that is bound to happen. Expect it and fear it.

When Israel has US support & money ready to cover its crimes & protect it from retaliation, Zionists voices should be tougher & braver..

Nothing is preventing anyone from leaving through the Arab side of Gaza... oh, wait, the Egyptians are shooting at Palestinians who try to cross the fence.

We are talking about Safe Zones within their country. Transferring them out of their country by force is called cleansing which is one of IDF favorite techniques against Palestinians yet it is not applicable in this war.

Indeed. Victory through fear, submission and deterrence.

You call these massacres against civilians a Victory. You present a typical Zionist. Aren't you!

The Nazis were exceptionally effective fighters.

Proud for being a Nazi image!. I know that Zionists apply Nazi tactics but they do not confess it. This is a rare statement.

Bring it on. So far, Hamas has only managed to kill ONE of our soldiers. We've killed over 500.

Hamas is stating that they have lost 30 fighters only. All the world know who you are killing. Nothing to be proud of. It is full of shame.

UN regulations brought on by the Arab league, etc. Doesn't mean shit.

Read History

Take a look at Africa, dude, or Asia. Hell - take a brief look at your own country.

My country has never been subjected to an international condemnation. Although your country history seems negligible compared to Egypt, you have filled it with atrocities & awful events. Nothing to be proud of.

Sadly, nothing and no-one can guarantee this to us - and as usual, we must rely on ourselves..

What did you accomplish. Israel is fighting since 60 years. Israel is losing wars only since 1973. Agrant commision sent Golda & IDF commanders home after YK war. IDF withdrew from Lebanon under the attacks of the Lebanese resistance in 2000. Last 2006 War, IDF commanders ( Dan Halos & others ) were sent home by Vinograd committee. I do not know the name of the committee Judge who will send Livni, Barak & Asknazi home after this war.
With these policies Israel will remain fighting till its allies drop it. Only, then its wars will stop & It will change its racist policies.

[Dempsey]

Sayed Zakerya

My country has never been subjected to an international condemnation. Although your country history seems negligible compared to Egypt, you have filled it with atrocities & awful events. Nothing to be proud of.

Not even when Egypt gassed Yemenis in the early 60's? Maybe due to Soviet UN veto power.

PS. I adore Egypt. The only civilized Arab country.

[Dempsey]

War Angel

Bring it on. So far, Hamas has only managed to kill ONE of our soldiers. We've killed over 500.

Hate this sort of bravado.

[Maas]

Bring it on. So far, Hamas has only managed to kill ONE of our soldiers. We've killed over 500.

including civilians and probably 30% of that total number are childeren.
Aint we proud

[Oxymoron]

Hamas is stating that they have lost 30 fighters only.

Yeah right.

[QatzelOk]

You call those Massacares? Nothing compared to what Mr.Muhammed did.

One of the features of propaganda like this is that it compresses time into one simple set of events.

"Muhammed massacred, so we have to as well."

It worked for the thousand-year-Reich, so why not for Israel's thousand years of messiah-hood as well.

[NYYS]

Is any of these 2, justified? And if the second, then at the absence of evidence how come the Israeli administration has not come out to admit that it was a mistake? That is running out of scenarios, and leaving us with only one option.

It's justifiable to think the school was being used as by militants and blowing it. Obviously it's not justifiable to blow it up for no reason.

And I have no idea why the Israelis won't admit it was a mistake. Maybe they think they were right. I'd say it's more likely they just don't give a shit, they're pretty callous about the sort of thing normally.