[Napuljun]

Of course our enemies' women were rape. Germans deserved all they got.

Your talking shit, say something rational if you want some good digestion of facts.

[Vladimir]

I forgot the d in raped.

[Shade2]

But they were treated with flowers and hot food by the greatful Poles.

A lot of Poles have already known the Soviet Occupation in 1939-1941.
Furthermore Soviet murdered people from the Polish Home Army.

[Maksym]

Anthony Beevor’s works appeals to two groups, these being Neo-Nazis and German apologists. This is about the fifth time these particular articles have been recycled by members on this board belonging to the far right. If anyone goes on an Easter egg hunt, you will find these articles circulating on white nationalist boards and being used to seduce gutter trash to their cause. Furthermore, the BBC’s article is extremely objective and balanced when explaining the course of events. After all, Nazis crimes are summed up with just one sentence, The Wehrmacht had abducted many Russian and Ukrainian girls and set them up in "military brothels". Highly unbiased and balanced reporting.

The research is given legitimacy by pretending to be newly uncovered facts from the Soviet archives. What the article does not tell you is no other researcher, especially Russians who have access to the archives, agree with the conclusions drawn by Mr. Beevor. Finally, the article contradicts itself with planting the notion Soviet officers gleefully allowed the rapes of ordinary Germans to occur, even though thousands of soldiers were executed for crimes against the German people.

Now, the Red Army did punish members of the Nazi apparatus. War criminals were placed on trial, some were executed and many had wartime property expropriated. The descendents of Nazi scum are trying to revise history by portraying the Soviets as carrying out reprisals against all Germans and also watering down the crimes of the Nazi regime.

[Shade2]

A little known fact.
After the war Allies made several polls in occupied Germany to learn the attitude of population.
Above 50% answered that Nazism was a "good idea" bud "done poorly".

[Napuljun]

Any sources abotu the polls? And the accuracy of the polls please?

[Shade2]

Rocznik Polsko Niemiecki 1992 volume I
Edmund Dmitrow:Germany and Poland Population, Rebuilding, Political changes in first years after the war.
The results are from american zone, made by monthly polls.
In answer to question if National Socialism was good idea but badly implemented from November 1945 till December 1946 an avarage of 47 % questioned said yes.
In August 1947 this percentage increased to 55%.
German historian Christopher Klessmen claims the society expressed similiar views in other zones.

[PolarBear]

Even if the numbers your suggest are true, why are you trying to blame the present German generation for that if the support is probly around 1 or 2 %.

[Shade2]

Even if the numbers your suggest are true, why are you trying to blame the present German generation for that if the support is probly around 1 or 2 %.

Only 1 or 2 % Germans despise Poles ? That is debatable to say the least.

[ArtAllm]

To Vladimir:

Why is rape of enemy women incompatible with patriotism?

Because it is a crime committed against civilians.

These crimes downgrade the Soviets to the level of Nazis: there was no difference between the Soviets and Nazis - both were criminal regimes.

[Thunderhawk]

These crimes downgrade the Soviets to the level of Nazis: there was no difference between the Soviets and Nazis - both were criminal regimes.

I'm disagreeing with that.


Rape is horrible, but in most cases, murder is worse.

Soviets rape a few million - barbaric.
Nazis execute several million - inhuman.


What the Soviets did was horrible, what the Nazis did was even worse in both quantity and type..

[Vladimir]

Because it is a crime committed against civilians.

Yes, against enemy civilians, which is the very essence of fighting a patriotic war. Of course, it is not crime as such, it is an element of the war. Soldiers rape enemy women for two reasons: To revenge for all russian women who were tortured, raped and executed; and to displace all the hatred and anger that was gathered in every man. Apart from that, it is very difficult for men to carry on for long periods with out sex, and during the war there were very few women on the front. So, all the sexual urge was released violently on enemy women.
But also, the rape is just another form of hurting the enemy.

These crimes downgrade the Soviets to the level of Nazis: there was no difference between the Soviets and Nazis - both were criminal regimes.

None were criminal regimes, but the germans were invaders, pillagers, they burned russian villages, ruined russian cities, killed russian people. As I said, they deserved all they got. Actually, they got too little punishment if anything.
And do not patronise Russia, no russian will stand this.

[PolarBear]

Only 1 or 2 % Germans despise Poles ? That is debatable to say the least.

You like to put words in peoples mouths?
I said that it is the number of nazi supporters, not Pole haters.

Im sure there are a lot of those however, based on the economic demand of Poland from major EU nations.

These crimes downgrade the Soviets to the level of Nazis: there was no difference between the Soviets and Nazis - both were criminal regimes.

What crimes?

Like I said, the Soviet war crimes were based on the decision of people as individuals, which has nothing to do with the regime of the nation.

Nazi Germany's leadership on the other hand supported the idea of killing Russians, Poles and Jews: they promoted that idea.

You can compare Nazi Germany more with the USA and their atomic bombing of Japan than with some individual rapes from the red army.

[ArtAllm]

To Vladimir

Yes, against enemy civilians, which is the very essence of fighting a patriotic war.

Civilians cannot be "enemies", because they do not have any weapons and do not fight.
Only criminal cowards and scoundrels can harm or rape defenseless women and children. These people are not heroes, they are just criminal scum, like the Nazis.

[Vladimir]

Every man or woman who is with the enemy country are enemies and deserve death.
And red army soldiers are not scum! Russian soldiers have saved the motherland and the world, and some rapes of enemy women, which happen in any war anyway, can't even remotely overshadow the great deeds. So keep your fascist mouth shut, and do not dare pour venomous insults at russian soldiers.

[Einherjar]

I would be surprised if Russians did not rape German women; they are pretty and after months of fighting.. all the better! Besides; given the language barrier, there is no way in hell they could consent to having sex.

[N]

Every man or woman who is with the enemy country are enemies and deserve death.

Nonsense...

And red army soldiers are not scum! Russian soldiers have saved the motherland and the world, and some rapes of enemy women, which happen in any war anyway, can't even remotely overshadow the great deeds. So keep your fascist mouth shut, and do not dare pour venomous insults at russian soldiers.

Actually, it is you who make insults at Russian soldiers.

Some incidents with rapes did occur. Of course now their degree is grossly exaggerated. (There was also such a thing as the fraternization). But anyway it was done by some individuals inspite of the prohibition from the higher command. Many of them were punished and they by no means deserved justification! Do not lump some criminals-rapists together with the whole Red Army, please.

[ArtAllm]

To N:

Some incidents with rapes did occur. Of course now their degree is grossly exaggerated...

I think that most Russians think and always thought like Vladimir, and they don't ever realize that they were and are barbarians.

But Vladimir is at least not a hypocrite, like you.

[Maksym]

Artallm, the only thing you have proven is my previous point, ”by portraying the Soviets as carrying out reprisals against all Germans and also watering down the crimes of the Nazi regime.” Now the Soviet and Germans are “equally barbaric”. What are German apologists going to call for next? A reassessment of the Waffen SS? Or maybe a rehabilitation of the slave labour system under the Nazi’s? Revisionist scholars now feel comfortable to open a dialogue on events sixty years ago. All of the chief architects of the Nazi regime and scholars after the war have died. Now a rehabilitation of the past can commence with “facts” being manipulated and quotes from the deceased being distorted, as Anthony Beever’s work demonstrates. It is amazing how many people just swallow an article from the BBC, even though no Russian historian agrees with the analysis.

Vlad, you really need to shut your ignorant trap.

[N]

To ArtAllm

Most Russian are even not aware about this great-scale Russophobian propaganda campaign in the West. Vladimir's reaction to your nazi talks (barbarians etc) is understanable but he is wrong. I think he've just been too hasty.