The Politics ForumThe Politics Forum
PoliticsForum.org - The political discussion forum.
[ Register ][ Login ]
[ Forum Rules ][ F.A.Q. ][ Search ]
[ The Politics Forum ][ Politics Forum Monthly Publication ][ Political Blogs ][ Member Blogs ][ Documents ][ Images ][ Donate ]
The Politics Forum » Political Ideologies » Liberalism » Christian Liberalism ? [ Go to page ][ 1, 2, 3 ][ Next ]
Forum Rules: No one line posts please. Your continued use of The Politics Forum is subject to your full agreement with the forum rules & terms of use.
Christian Liberalism ?
Moderator: Kylie
  NEW TOPIC      POST REPLY  
Log-in to remove advertisement.
Absolutely Corrupt
Absolutely Corrupt
User avatar
Joined: Fri 25 Jun 2004, 20:41
Posts: 2906
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 12:05
Is there such a thing as someone being both Christian and liberal at the same time? Sometimes I think it's impossible, like when the Bible says that homosexuality is evil or that any form of murder is bad (ruling out abortion), among other things.

I consider myself a Liberal, because I am pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, but a friend of mine accuses me now of being un-Christian.

So is it possible to be both or do I have to pick one or the other?
"Australia is like my penis. Everyone knows its down there and nobody cares." -PBVBROOK
Image
The Politics Forum
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 12:05
If you enjoy using the Politics Forum, please consider supporting PoFo by subscribing (to donate directly), or by using an affiliate link when you shop on-line (costs you nothing extra). PoFo costs a lot of money to run, so your support really is appreciated.
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2003, 09:56
Posts: 8561
Location: The True North Strong and Free! Ideology: Christian, Pragmatic Nationalism Libertarian Republicanism
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 12:34
Depends on what you mean by liberal and in what areas.

In moral issues (such as gay marriage and drugs) a Christian could logically be liberal if they take a more libertarian stance. The state is an institution of the world and as such what it rules is part of the fallen world.

But endorsing such things, or endorsing the state in endorsing such things, is well outside of proper Christian doctrine.

In economic issues, modern liberalism is not incompatible with Christian doctrine, but then neither is classical liberalism.

As for abortion, that's a little bit of a sticky one. A Christian should be opposed to the unnecessary taking of innocent life. But then again, when does the unborn become life? Scripture is fairly silent on this issue. So one could be somewhat pro-abortion and still fall within proper Christian doctrine.

Then of course, there can be a Christian liberal in which the 'Christian' sacrifices anything resembling proper Christian doctrine in favor of political ideology. This happens in the NDP in Canada a bit.

Quote:
So is it possible to be both or do I have to pick one or the other?

That is between you, your conscience, and God.
Image
Virtus, Unitas, Libertas
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 14 Apr 2006, 16:51
Posts: 9898
Location: Somewhere reading...
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 12:51
...I am a Liberal and a Christian...


In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:12

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"you are doing right. James 2:8


...this is what Liberalism is about...
(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < )
This is Bunny. Why don't you kiss his fuzzy ass?
Image
Absolutely Corrupt
Absolutely Corrupt
User avatar
Joined: Mon 02 Aug 2004, 15:05
Posts: 2362
Location: England
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 12:52
Only extremists take every word of the Bible as literally true. Several churches regard homosexuality as normal and acceptable (for instance, the mainstream of the US Episcopal Church). I don't know if any church considers abortion as no problem at all, but the Episcopal Church upholds the legal right to abortion, and does not say it can never be acceptable:

Quote:
In 1994, the 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirmed that all human life is sacred from its inception until death and that all abortion is regarded as having a tragic dimension. "While we acknowledge that in this country it is the legal right of every woman to have a medically safe abortion," the resolution stated, "as Christians we believe strongly that if this right is exercised, it should be used only in extreme situations. We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience."

source


Officially Christian countries have not always regarded abortion as 'murder':

Quote:
The abortion laws in Britain originally roughly coincided with the belief of when human life begins, but gradually the multifaceted political aspects of abortion resulted in the abortion laws deviating from the general opinion of when human life begins. English common law located the beginning of a human soul at "quickening," believed to be the stage when the soul enters the body and the embryo could be felt moving within the uterus, which occurs at about four months. Abortion laws became more stringent in 1803, when abortion was criminalized.

When Does Human Life Begin?
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2004, 16:54
Posts: 9743
Location: USA Ideology: "democratic" Marxist, mass movement progressive
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 13:03
I would not no exactly where to place this but it seems to place itself on the 'centre-liberal' position on the spectrum.
kitoba.com wrote:
Given the centrality of existential and humanist concepts and concerns to Christian theology, I would go so far as to say that a true follower of Christ is by necessity both existentialist and humanist (although neither in precedence over discipleship). Thus, when I say “Christian Existential Humanist” what I really mean is “Christian.”


Christian existentialist-humanism at wiki.
Image
Absolutely Corrupt
Absolutely Corrupt
User avatar
Joined: Thu 10 Mar 2005, 21:20
Posts: 3215
Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 14:17
This is what I would say:

It is perfectly possible to be in Christ and hold to any set of political beliefs you like. It is, however, impossible to be a Christian, think consistently, and be pro-choice or believe homosexuality to be acceptable. Now the political side of liberalism (i.e. big government, welfare, etc), while repugnant to me personally, is not inherently at odds with Christianity prima facie (the philosophy painted by scripture leads in the more limited government direction, but that a whole other issue).
Image
Moderator of The Agora
Interests: Theology, Continental Philosophy, Economics, Anthropology
51% Corrupt
51% Corrupt
User avatar
Joined: Tue 13 Jun 2006, 11:21
Posts: 1031
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada (Sportsman's Paradise) Ideology: Ultra-Capitalist Insular Authoritarianism
PostPosted: Sun 09 Jul 2006, 00:44
LUKE 6:7

Quote:
6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Indeed, I submit to you that it is entirely possible to be a "Liberal Christian". I don't even require more than one example to prove that it is not only possible, but that it can be applied to any religious belief structure... provided that the worshipper in question is both educated and capable of making the distinction between a fact and an allegorical metaphor designed specifically to teach a lession.

If the bible is to be taken as a literal document:

Homosexuality is a sin...

and

Every Christian who is also a Coalition solider who kills an Iraqi for any reason is going straight to Hell for breaking the first commandment (which in no way specifies that a military combatant is somehow exempt from the law "Thou Shalt Not Kill")

However, if the bible is taken as an allegorical document, our understanding of which is still evolving:

Homosexuality might not be a sin...

and

Those soldiers may be absolved by God for breaking his law because he/she/it understands the reasons why they did what they did and forgives them for taking life against his/her/it's command.

This is my rationel for being not only a Liberal Christan, but a Liberal Red Letter Catholic... although I prefer not to label myself as such, because on many issues including crime and morality, I am still a fairly "conservative" man. "Liberalism", in my opinion, superceeds politicization. It is the act of embracing social and theological tolerance, concequently freeing us from hatred and a desire to conquer and oppress others.
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 03 Feb 2005, 05:13
Posts: 9849
Location: Bruxelles, Belgique, Union européenne
PostPosted: Sun 09 Jul 2006, 05:05
At the end of the day... religions have always changed and will continue to change. There is no such thing as a homogenous "christianity" (or "islam" for that matter), there is the diverse set of beliefs, institutions and practices that different christians ascribe to. There are plenty of liberal churches out there, those who say you are un-christian are just being dogmatic and closed-minded.
Image
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2003, 09:56
Posts: 8561
Location: The True North Strong and Free! Ideology: Christian, Pragmatic Nationalism Libertarian Republicanism
PostPosted: Sun 09 Jul 2006, 13:20
Quote:
Only extremists take every word of the Bible as literally true.

Nobody takes every word as literally true. Everybody accepts that there is at least metaphor or allusion (Revelations especially), the disagreement is over to what degree.

Quote:
Several churches regard homosexuality as normal and acceptable (for instance, the mainstream of the US Episcopal Church).

The same church that denies taht Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

Quote:
The Episcopal convention overwhelmingly rejected a resolution declaring the Episcopal Church's belief in an "unchanging commitment to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only name by which any person may be saved,"

http://craftusa.net/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=american_episcopalian_church_going_going&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

A church can believe what it wants, but when it denies basic Christian doctrine, they should lose the Christian label.

Quote:
Every Christian who is also a Coalition solider who kills an Iraqi for any reason is going straight to Hell for breaking the first commandment (which in no way specifies that a military combatant is somehow exempt from the law "Thou Shalt Not Kill")

Incorrect. This is the same translation error that continually appears in debates. The correct translation it "Thou shall not murder." Not kill, but murder, which is an illegal ot illegitimate killing.

Quote:
"Liberalism", in my opinion, superceeds politicization. It is the act of embracing social and theological tolerance, concequently freeing us from hatred and a desire to conquer and oppress others.

Liberalism in the theological sense is the sacrificing of proper Christian doctrine and people's souls to satisfy humanity. It is a weakness that needs to be expunged.

One can have proper doctrine and still be tolerant.

Quote:
There are plenty of liberal churches out there, those who say you are un-christian are just being dogmatic and closed-minded.

Maybe, or maybe if someone calls themselves Christian they should at least hold to some basic Christian doctrine. Just as if someone calls themselves a libertarian they should hold to a belief in freedom, or if someone calls themselves Marxist they should hold to basic Marxist doctrine.
Image
Virtus, Unitas, Libertas
Absolutely Corrupt
Absolutely Corrupt
User avatar
Joined: Thu 10 Mar 2005, 21:20
Posts: 3215
Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Mon 10 Jul 2006, 00:26
A couple of thoughts and then I'll let you guys have this thread because I've talked about this issue too much in the past:

1. It is important in citing scriptural texts in support of liberal democratic political moves to check the context. In most if not all cases you will find that it is either a) Suzerainty covenant blessings or b) personal (as opposed to social) Suzerainty covenant stipulations.

2. Avatan, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not shed innocent blood" if you take the Hebrew text at its face value.

3. For the love of God do not divorce literal interpretation from allegorical. History and covenant have the same author, and historical records can therefore teach allegorical lessons of covenant truth. Always remember that while much of scripture is historical record, Christ said "the law and the prophets testify of me." If scripture is not the cradle that holds Christ then your interpretation is flawed. Everyone here should read an article of the concept of typology.
Image
Moderator of The Agora
Interests: Theology, Continental Philosophy, Economics, Anthropology
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 17:31
Posts: 7758
Location: Chestnut Tree Cafe
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 11:01
Quote:
any form of murder is bad (ruling out abortion)

If conservatives follow the Bible so closely, how come they support the death penalty? Regardless of whether it is murdering a criminal, it's still murder. My point being, conservatives love to include Christianity in there ideology, but they still do a lot of un-Christian things...
Quote:
The correct translation it "Thou shall not murder." Not kill, but murder, which is an illegal ot illegitimate killing.

Illegal killing varies greatly from location to location, who is to say who is right? Illegitimate killing is purely opinion, some will saying killing an Iraqi is legitimate others will say that it is not.
Image
Absolutely Corrupt
Absolutely Corrupt
Joined: Wed 22 Jan 2003, 13:17
Posts: 2807
Location: Bogota, Colombia
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 11:16
Christian liberalism can only be liberalism as far as economics and political issues are concerned. However, most of them are not true moral liberals.
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2003, 09:56
Posts: 8561
Location: The True North Strong and Free! Ideology: Christian, Pragmatic Nationalism Libertarian Republicanism
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 12:18
Quote:
If conservatives follow the Bible so closely, how come they support the death penalty? Regardless of whether it is murdering a criminal, it's still murder.

Incorrect. It is a legitimate killing by the state to promote justice within the state. It's not murder in any sense of the word.

Quote:
My point being, conservatives love to include Christianity in there ideology, but they still do a lot of un-Christian things...

As does any Christian. The Christian standard of holiness is so far beyond anything mere mortal flesh is capable of that all Christians do unChristian things.

Quote:
Illegal killing varies greatly from location to location, who is to say who is right?

God, and to a lesser extent the earthly ruler.

Quote:
Illegitimate killing is purely opinion, some will saying killing an Iraqi is legitimate others will say that it is not.

It is a war. The war may be illegitimate and if it is those who perpetrated it will dealt with accordingly by God. But the killing itself is legitimate if it is done within the proper rules of war.
Image
Virtus, Unitas, Libertas
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 17:31
Posts: 7758
Location: Chestnut Tree Cafe
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 12:51
Quote:
It is a legitimate killing by the state to promote justice within the state. It's not murder in any sense of the word.

The killing of millions of Jews in World War II Germany was considered legitimate by the state at the time, was it not murder?
Quote:
As does any Christian.

Which constitutes my hate of religion in general, people are incapable of following its teaching and distort its message at there leisure
Quote:
God, and to a lesser extent the earthly ruler.

Less God, and more the earthly ruler... Law is determined by the earthly ruler and he is under no obligation to respect the teachings of God. Ungodly laws appear all the time, but they are still laws.
Quote:
But the killing itself is legitimate if it is done within the proper rules of war.

The rules of war are not constant; the Pope authorized the massacring of millions of non-Christians during the Crusades... That would be against the rules of war now, but entirely proper to kill innocent people (with reward of absolution of your sins) during that war.
Image
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2003, 09:56
Posts: 8561
Location: The True North Strong and Free! Ideology: Christian, Pragmatic Nationalism Libertarian Republicanism
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 15:57
Quote:
The killing of millions of Jews in World War II Germany was considered legitimate by the state at the time, was it not murder?

Yes, because it contravened God's laws concerning legitimate killing and was the shedding of innocent blood.

Quote:
Which constitutes my hate of religion in general, people are incapable of following its teaching and distort its message at there leisure

This happens with all ideologies and moralities. Humans are just that humans, none are perfect.

Quote:
Less God, and more the earthly ruler... Law is determined by the earthly ruler and he is under no obligation to respect the teachings of God. Ungodly laws appear all the time, but they are still laws.

True, but God is the final arbiter of whether these laws are right or not.

Quote:
The rules of war are not constant; the Pope authorized the massacring of millions of non-Christians during the Crusades... That would be against the rules of war now, but entirely proper to kill innocent people (with reward of absolution of your sins) during that war.

Yes, and the Pope will be held accountable for those rules.
Image
Virtus, Unitas, Libertas
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 17:31
Posts: 7758
Location: Chestnut Tree Cafe
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 16:17
Quote:
Yes, because it contravened God's laws concerning legitimate killing and was the shedding of innocent blood.

Do you think that no innocent men were killed by the state? I can almost be certain it has happened... In my opinion, if the state killed one innocent man, the program is inhumane. I am a law student, and I can safely say that as a lawyer I would rather let a thousand guilty men go than put one innocent man to death
Quote:
This happens with all ideologies and moralities. Humans are just that humans, none are perfect.

Correct, humans are not perfect... But when more harm occurs from an ideology than good, that ideology is flawed. You give me one good thing Christianity has produced and I will give you two bad things it has produced
Quote:
True, but God is the final arbiter of whether these laws are right or not.

This presents another problem I have with Christianity... Christians don't seem to realize that not everyone in the world is Christian. God, sure he's great... But how come he lets innocent men get killed, anyway? How does a leader know if the laws he is using are just or not? You are Christian, so how would you feel if when you got to Saint Peter's gates and he told you completely misinterpreted the Bible (inadvertently) and sent you to hell?
Quote:
Yes, and the Pope will be held accountable for those rules.

I'm sure that offers much comfort to the millions of dead Jews and Muslims...What is to be done with them? Say (hypothetically) Christianity is the true religion and a representative of God ordered the deaths of millions of non-Christians? What is to be done with them?
Image
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
Absolutely Corrupt (x4)
User avatar
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2003, 09:56
Posts: 8561
Location: The True North Strong and Free! Ideology: Christian, Pragmatic Nationalism Libertarian Republicanism
PostPosted: Tue 11 Jul 2006, 23:46
Quote:
Do you think that no innocent men were killed by the state?

No.

Quote:
I can almost be certain it has happened... In my opinion, if the state killed one innocent man, the program is inhumane.

OK.

Quote:
I am a law student, and I can safely say that as a lawyer I would rather let a thousand guilty men go than put one innocent man to death

I'm a political student I can safely say that things are rarely that simple in intra-human affairs.

Quote:
Correct, humans are not perfect... But when more harm occurs from an ideology than good, that ideology is flawed. You give me one good thing Christianity has produced and I will give you two bad things it has produced

Let's see: the majority of charitable organizations in the West, the Protestant work ethic and the capitalist societies that developed from that and the liberal democracies and freedom that developed from that, and the millions of lives changed for the better by the devlopment relationship with Jesus Christ for a start. Your turn.

Quote:
This presents another problem I have with Christianity... Christians don't seem to realize that not everyone in the world is Christian.


Quote:
God, sure he's great... But how come he lets innocent men get killed, anyway?

Because it is his divine plan that they do. As the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked, so to does the hail.

Quote:
How does a leader know if the laws he is using are just or not?

God's word, his own judgement, and his conscience.

Quote:
You are Christian, so how would you feel if when you got to Saint Peter's gates and he told you completely misinterpreted the Bible (inadvertently) and sent you to hell?

Horrified, sad, and angry, but my potential feelings have no bearing on what is.

Quote:
I'm sure that offers much comfort to the millions of dead Jews and Muslims...

There dead, I'm sure they have more pressing concerns.

Quote:
What is to be done with them?

They're dead and buried, so nothing much can be done.

Quote:
Say (hypothetically) Christianity is the true religion and a representative of God ordered the deaths of millions of non-Christians? What is to be done with them?

If the millions of deaths were on God's orders then they shall reap their reward, if not, they shall reap their doom as it unlikely that they could be in a state of grace at the same time as committing millions of murders.
Image
Virtus, Unitas, Libertas
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 07 Jul 2006, 17:31
Posts: 7758
Location: Chestnut Tree Cafe
PostPosted: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 07:52
Quote:
No.

Don't kid yourself, our justice system is far from perfect and we convict innocent men all the time.
Quote:
I'm a political student I can safely say that things are rarely that simple in intra-human affairs.

My undergraduate degree is in political science, but my opinion still stands. How do you find it more complicated that killing an innocent man is ethically wrong?
Quote:
the majority of charitable organizations in the West

Who spend more of your chartable donations converting people then feeding them...
Quote:
the Protestant work ethic

The protestant work ethic is sending thousands of jobs to India
Quote:
and the millions of lives changed for the better by the development relationship with Jesus Christ for a start.

That's purely opinion; I could just as easily say the Confucians have changed millions of lives with a better relationship with Confucius
Quote:
Your turn.

* The Crusades
* Medieval Inquisition
* Spanish Inquisition
* Roman Inquisition
* Protestant Inquisition
* Priest child molestation
* Televangelists using the name of God to make millions in profit
* Salem Witch Trials
* Sale of Indulgences
* Prejudice
Quote:
Because it is his divine plan that they do. As the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked, so to does the hail.

Muslims will say the same thing with just as much conviction...
Quote:
his own judgment, and his conscience.

Can the conscience of Kim Jong Il or Adolph Hitler be trusted?
Quote:
Horrified, sad, and angry, but my potential feelings have no bearing on what is.

My point is there are hundreds of completely different takes on the Bible, each of whom feel as strong as you do about theirs, how can you be sure yours is right?
Quote:
They're dead and buried, so nothing much can be done.

I am referring to the 'afterlife' does God send them to hell for being non-believers even though one of his representatives orders their death?
Quote:
If the millions of deaths were on God's orders then they shall reap their reward, if not, they shall reap their doom

So you are open to the idea that the Crusades might have been God's orders? Are you telling me there is a possibility that it was God's wish to kill millions of people?
Image
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
Absolutely Corrupt (x3)
User avatar
Joined: Mon 21 Feb 2005, 04:18
Posts: 7155
Location: Portland, OR
PostPosted: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 09:15
It depends on whether you believe that the Bible is to be taken literally. It also depends on whether you believe the Old Testament and Paul's writings should be taken with the same credibility as the teachings of Jesus. I think the Jesus' teachings, followed consistently, would lead to tolerance for homosexuals, as well as any other lifestyle that does not harm others. Also, Jesus said nothing of what marriage should be, or even if marriage itself was a good thing(some early Christian sects shunned marriage altogether). As far as being pro-choice, I have yet to see a Bible verse that claims that life begins at conception.
Economic Left/Right: -5.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
Image
Absolutely Corrupt (x6)
Absolutely Corrupt (x6)
User avatar
Joined: Fri 15 Oct 2004, 03:18
Posts: 12221
Location: Not where you're at!
PostPosted: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 09:28
http://www.sojo.net/


Have you checked this out yet. It answers your question !
Log-in to remove advertisement.
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
  NEW TOPIC      POST REPLY  
The Politics Forum » Political Ideologies » Liberalism » Christian Liberalism ? [ Go to page ][ 1, 2, 3 ][ Next ]
[ The Politics Forum ][ Politics Forum Monthly Publication ][ Political Blogs ][ Member Blogs ][ Documents ][ Images ][ Donate ]
More Forums: [ UK Politics Forum ][ History Forum ][ U.S.S.R. ]
[ Top ]
Copyright © 2003-2010 Siberian Fox network. Powered by phpBB.Politics Forum statistics