[Andres]

If there were no immigrants in this area, then the NPD would not have a platform to run on.

Zel already adressed your points, so I will only point out what I have already said in this thread. It is precisely because there are almost no immigrants to the region that blaming immigrants is nothing but scapegoating.

Right-wing parties in Europe have made huge electoral gains because of harmful immigration. This is the case in France and this is the case in Germany.

And this is where your ignorance comes in. You are not looking at this particular case, and you seem to know very little about the region. You are assuming certain things are happening in other parts of Europe and assume that they must also occur in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, even if you have no sources or proof to back it up.

The economy of Germany, Italy, France, and Belgium have been in a horrendous shape for years. Wages stayed the same and the Euro doubled the prices of everything.

This does not prove that the Euro has destroyed the economy of Germany (as you so claimed), since you admit that the economy was in horrendous shape before the advent of the euro. At most it is an argument as to why it has not helped the economy (although even in that regard it would be incomplete).

If this development can't be stopped (and it very much looks that way right now) then most of the German population will be concentrated in former "Western Germany" (with a few exceptions in the vicinities of large cities like Dresden, Chemnitz and of course Berlin) while most of the Eastern German countryside will become ghosttowns, requiring resettlement.

I just spent two weeks in a very small town in Thuringia, and it seemed to me very different compared to the news stories I have heard/read of other parts of East Germany. It certainly didnt look as prosperous as Baden-Württemberg or Bayern, but it looked not to be in such economic depression, and it actually seemed to be prospering.

[soron]

Well the billions and billions of tax euros should be visible somewhere. However since investment into infrastructure was being made with a watering can, equally showering the money down, I expect that oversized infrastructure will become a burden to some regions if the population keeps on moving to other parts of the country.

This does not prove that the Euro has destroyed the economy of Germany (as you so claimed), since you admit that the economy was in horrendous shape before the advent of the euro. At most it is an argument as to why it has not helped the economy (although even in that regard it would be incomplete).

I believe there were several reasons:
1. The politicians lied at us when they told us inflation was basically not higher than the year before. Because every German can tell his own personal stories of shops or restaurants (mostly restaurants) who just replaced the "DM" with "€" and kept the prices (at an exchange rate of 1,95 DM for 1 Euro, that's a 95% price increase).
2. Despite everybody not being able to buy the same products as before with his exactly exchanged pay check, politicians didn't stop lieing but kept telling us we were wrong and their statistics was correct. By the time tehy admitted that it wasn't (and not all do until today) faith in their testimonies was badly damaged.
3. However imho what really caused the bad image of the Euro as "Teuro" (a pun originating from the German word "teuer" which means "expensive") was something that every German did before every time he went abroad on vacation: You take the merchandise's price in foreign currency, recalculate it into DM and then ... you evaluate the result: Is it expensive ? Is it cheap ? Do I get my money's worth ?
I think that because of that most people in Germany re-evaluated every single thing they bought, from paper handkerchiefs to vegetable to sausage to consumer electronics, and then applied a judgement "worth buying" or "not worth it".
I remember once standing in a supermarket with a 4-pack of paper towels in my hand at 1.99. I thought about it and came to this conclusion: 1.99 Euros = almost 4 DM for 4 rolls of paper towels ... 1 DM per roll: that's a lot. I put it back and bought some re-useable kitchen sponges instead although I bought paper towels for years without thinking about the price. And that's it: People started to think about the price - and decided to safe their money.

[dannymu]

The NPD has earned my support. I advocate all of these measures. NATO and EU need to be demolished, foreigners of all kind need to be booted out, and Poland has to return land it stole from us. I want to see the Polish state vanish from the map. Germany belongs to the Germans.

I heard Soron saying you are a Fake German or a Fake NAzi. We also have Fake Russians here! Anyway as far as I know Nazis like you tried to steal land from Poland, Russia, France, Norway, Belgium, Hollan, Greece, Austria, etc. And you say Poland should vanish from the map. You are no different from Ahmadinejad. And you Wilelm come back and answer to our arguments. Or you are one of those bloody ANzis who are afrai dof being confronted if wihtout your Nazi friends.

[Shade2]

Quote:
The party believes use of Bundeswehr should be used to change border of Poland.
It was mistake to let Germany exist in its form after WW2.

What an idiotic comment, devoid of any regard for reality. You're an irrseponsible, full-of-hate propagandist. People like you make war possible in the first place. You disgust me.

Why do you deny it ? There is no use hiding the truth. Extremists usually have no self-control and their opinions are known due to this.

http://www.nd-online.de/artikel.asp?AID=96103&IDC=2

Für die Interessen der »deutschen Heimat« wäre der Bundeswehreinsatz angebracht, sagt die Partei, die eine »Revision der nach dem Krieg abgeschlossenen Grenzanerkennungsverträge« verlangt.

[dannymu]

Care to translate the article Shade2?

[Andres]

dannymu, the article is basically confirming Shade's position, but it should be pointed out that it is a socialist newspaper, not entirely an unbiased source when it comes to nazis (not that the mainstream media is unbiased towards nazis, but I think they would let it show a little less, maybe). It would be helpful to see a more credible source on the matter. For example, the quote posted by Shade indeed appears in the article, but it is atributed to 'the party', meaning NPD, but it does not state which member of the party said it, was it a spokesman? a manifesto on their webpage? It does not explain. Then it continues to say that some want a revision, but at that point it refers to those who want it as some nazi organizations, rather than the NPD.

[dannymu]

Thanks for the help andres.

[Neutralname]

If this was about the economy, then Die Linke would have swept the election. But this is not about only the economy. It is also about the cultural threat that these foreigners pose to the German heritage.

Economic problems can produce the frustration that leads to the rejection of the mainstream but I agree that the far right are not often running on 'the economy' as the main issue. The demographic change that is effecting europe is creating a future which does not include people of German, Italian and English ethnicities- it is perfectly understandable that some people now want representation on these terms.

The established governments are not willing to do this- and indeed will do all they can to prevent it, as is seen in Belgium where a large majority of Flemmings voted for a party that would represent them and work to protect Flemmish culture and language. The system was manipulated to stop this representation.

[Shade2]

www.politik.uni-mainz.de/ereps/download ... erview.pdf
Founded in 1964, the National Democratic Party (NPD) is the oldest amongst these parties.
In many ways the party could be seen as a successor of Hitler’s Nazi party (NSDAP). During
the ‘60s, some 20 percent of the membership had also been members of the NSDAP.
Amongst the party’s leadership, this rate was much higher. The party’s original platform was
an idiosyncratic blend of anti-Bolshevism, Nazism, conservatism and even Catholic elements.
Its main goals were German unification and a revision of the border with Poland.

[Ixa]

The New York Times has not deigned to tell us just what the political platform of the National Democratic Party is, other than that it is “feared”. “Xenophobic and neo-Nazi” could mean anything from wanting to gas the few remaing German Jews to simply wanting to control the borders and get rid of “guest workers” taking German jobs. Of course I wouldn’t expect the reporters at our national paper of record to be able to distinguish between these two positions.

I’ve seen the mainstream media label the British National Party as “neo-Nazi”, which it certainly is not, so I’ve learned not to trust my media betters.


http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/20 ... t_sees.php

Far right Sees Gains In German Vote


Frankfurt,—A far-right party made further inroads in Germany’s economically fragile east today, winning seats in a state election in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, a lonely land of farms and fishing villages that is the home constituency of Chancellor Angela Merkel.

The National Democratic Party, which openly espouses xenophobic and neo-Nazi views, was projected to win slightly more than 7 percent of the vote, according to exit polls. That was less than analysts here had feared, but enough to clear the threshold of 5 percent for seats in the Parliament.

Extreme right parties will now be represented in three of Germany’s six eastern states—a trend that worries officials and underlines the divide between the country’s eastern and western halves. Far-right parties have negligible support in western Germany, which is more prosperous.

“This shows the extreme right is a stable and growing force in the east, but it is not an earthquake,” said Hajo Funke, a political scientist at the Free University of Berlin. “It’s not a danger for our democracy.”

The result, however, is a rebuke for Mrs. Merkel and her conservative party, the Christian Democratic Union, which lost votes in Mecklenburg and fared even worse in an election in Berlin. There, the city’s popular mayor, Klaus Wowereit, led the Social Democratic Party to a comfortable victory.

Voters appeared to be punishing Mrs. Merkel’s party 10 months after it squeaked into power in an unwieldy “grand coalition” with the Social Democrats. The Social Democrats, who govern Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, lost ground there, too, and it was not clear they could salvage their coalition with the Party of Democratic Socialism, the former East German Communist party.

Mrs. Merkel, who began her political career in Mecklenburg 15 years ago, has tried to focus attention on the region, inviting President Bush last July for a visit. But the state has one of the highest unemployment rates in Germany, making it a breeding ground for extremism, analyst say.

The National Democratic Party, which the German government once tried to ban, won seats in Saxony, a similarly depressed eastern state, in 2004. Another far-right party is represented in Brandenburg.

“The grand coalition hasn’t presented a forceful program to tackle Germany’s problems,” Mr. Funke said. “These parties take advantage of the frustration of those who have no chance of a social or economic future.”

{snip}

[Andres]

The demographic change that is effecting europe is creating a future which does not include people of German, Italian and English ethnicities- it is perfectly understandable that some people now want representation on these terms.

The demographic changes that you allude to are not happening in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. There is next to zero foreign immigration to this place. So it is not understandable from that point of view.

Its main goals were German unification and a revision of the border with Poland.

I had never heard a German that even alluded to this, but I dont think it is that surprising that is someone did wanted to do it, it would be the neo-nazis.

The New York Times has not deigned to tell us just what the political platform of the National Democratic Party is

Ixa, why does your copy-paste mention the New York Times, when your article is not from there?

[Ixa]

That was originally a New Thread, which was merged into this one. The referenced article was

URL)

I contributed the comment in the commentary box.

[soron]

The main point of Shade2 critizism is that some of those people (in Germany we call them "eternally yesterday") want to review the negotiations (as in: abrogation) of the borderline treaties that were made between Germany and Poland after the war.
It's used by Polish and German wingnuts in order to create hatespeech, but it really hasn't any political significance as the borderline teraty of the 50's isn't the final treaty in that matter: After reunification Germany and Poland drafted a new treaty which once and for all guarantees the Polish border with Germany, so any demands from German NPD or rightwingers in Poland is just babbling about an issue long resolved.

[Shade2]

Yes, we know Germans respect treaties very much.
Molotov can confirm that.

[soron]

And you're still dealing with us ? Well, you know the old saying: fooled me once, shame on you. Fooled me twice, shame on me
As far as I'm concerned you can keep everything east of the Oder-Neiße line ... and I'd even throw some Mecklenburg-Vorpommern on top of it to sweeten the deal. I'd offer you Berlin but the area is a bit swampy so I suppose you really wouldn't like it.

[Shade2]

Don't worry, nobody among Polish politicians in government is fooled to what Germans dream about.
Map on NPD site:

It is interesting to point out they wanted territories that Prussia took from Poland in Partitions and after 1815 also.

[Neutralname]

andres wrote:

Neutralname wrote:

The demographic change that is effecting europe is creating a future which does not include people of German, Italian and English ethnicities- it is perfectly understandable that some people now want representation on these terms.

The demographic changes that you allude to are not happening in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. There is next to zero foreign immigration to this place. So it is not understandable from that point of view.

Not directly, but they are still presumably aware of what is going on in Germany and Europe as a whole.
They personally are not seeing any of the benefits that immigration brings, they feel unrepresented and have no personal ties to immigrants- in short they have nothing to lose by voting for an anti-immigration party, and something very fundermental to lose by continuing with current immigration policies.

[Shade2]

They personally are not seeing any of the benefits that immigration brings,

Since appereantly they want to annex over 60% of Poland, what are they planning to do with Polish population ?

[Andres]

Don't worry, nobody among Polish politicians in government is fooled to what Germans dream about.

Are you refering to most Germans, or even a significant minority of Germans? Because if you do, you should get out of your paranoid state, and inform yourself.

Not directly, but they are still presumably aware of what is going on in Germany and Europe as a whole

Might be that something is happening somewhere else, but it is irrelevant to their case.

They personally are not seeing any of the benefits that immigration brings,

Not surprising, considering there is almost no immigration going into their region. Why would you expect to see any benefit from something that doesnt exist?

they feel unrepresented and have no personal ties to immigrants

Again, not surprising, considering they rarely come in contact with immigrants.

in short they have nothing to lose by voting for an anti-immigration party, and something very fundermental to lose by continuing with current immigration policies.

You seem oblivious to the fact that there is almost no immigration going on into their region. Ellecting an anti-immigration party makes almost as much sense as electing a party which is concerned with the level of siberian tigers in their region.

[Shade2]

You seem oblivious to the fact that there is almost no immigration going on into their region

However they want to annex most of Poland. That would be no doubt bring milions of Poles into Germany. How does NPD formulate its solution to Polish problem ?