MEPs urge COM to push ahead in opening up EU defence markets - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
User avatar
By Zel
#990361
rance is very distant in terms of values to Central Europe.
It has a large muslim population, is devoted to secularism, and infected by anti-americanism.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm
53% of Americans consider religion to be very important in their lives. This compares with 16% in Britain, 14% in France and 13% in Germany.
http://www.egospodarka.pl/14902,Polacy- ... ,39,1.html
Dla 77 procent Polaków religia jest ważna w życiu
For 77 percent of Poles religion is important in life.


Either you have no idea about France and the rest of the EU or you are warping facts. Taking 2 values from 2 different studies is by itself problematic. As such I provide a US based study from 2002 by Andy Kohut which is to my knowledge the only worldwide study on the importance of religion that uses a cohesive framework.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/167.pdf#search=%22Survey%20on%20Religion%20US%20Europe%22

But you are right there still is a difference in the importance between especially France and Poland. The difference between any other EU nation is quite low and even compared to the median both French and Polish deviations are not of that size that one could speak about a moral divide within the Union. Very similar differences probably can be found within the US between more secular states like California and states within the traditional south.

But what is shown as absolutly untrue is the religious difference of the new members compared to the older members. As can be easily seen with countries like the Czech Republic that is equaly secular as France or Italy or Austria which are much closer to Poland than they are to France on such a scale. As such religion never has been nor is a real dividing factor within the Union as the Union itself hardly encompases anything that is directly related to relgion. Though the way EU countries and the US handle specific aspects one principle remains with both, religion is mainly a private matter.

And to an outsiders point of view what I see as differences with Poland is not a religious problem or a moral problem but the intermingled concept of national catholicism that has no base in catholicism at all. Beeing myself a attending catholic what I see the more is a growing gap between Polish catholicism and that of the catholic chruch as Polish clergy lets itself been drawn into petty party politics. Something that has vanished from most other European countries.
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#990367
And I don't want EU to be a Franco-German protectorate.

The EU is so big it could never be that anymore. There are the Italians, the Brits, the Spagniards and the Poles. The days of Franco-German dominance are over. You take the boyeman of 140 million Europeans seriously, but not that of 300 million Americans (who are immeasurably more coordinated, militarily powerful and unilateral in their foreign policy).

There was hardly a choice in that decision. And the vote was regarding specific conditions. There was nothing about making a state or adopting a constitution in that vote.

I don't want to be too technical, but there was the little thing about "ever-closer union".

I think it would be helpful to have a European Defence Research program. I can understand the fears of a country like Poland, having been less than two decades ago freed from the Soviet empire. But Europe is trully bound together, increasingly economically and politically, it makes no sense to say that France or Germany (who do not constitute the whole EU) don't care about Poland's, or any Eastern European country's, interests. East and West are bound together facing the same hopes and fears on economic and security issues.

The United States on the other hand is half a world away. They will care about Eastern Europe so long as they still believe in the Russian bogeyman. That won't last forever. America cares less and about Europe (rightly) and will turn (and has turned) increasingly to disastrous adventures in the Mideast, neo-Cold War nonsense with China or sulking isolationism.

No European nation is independent on its own anymore. I think it makes far more sense to turn to the negotiating tables of Brussels than the violent fads and erratic crusades of Washington.

This isn't about a European state. This is about a process, where it will lead who knows, probably not a state in the traditional sense, so far it has created something unprecedented in History. In the meantime European Defense Research will be a good way saving money.
User avatar
By Zel
#990385
The United States on the other hand is half a world away. They will care about Eastern Europe so long as they still believe in the Russian bogeyman. That won't last forever. America cares less and about Europe (rightly) and will turn (and has turned) increasingly to disastrous adventures in the Mideast, neo-Cold War nonsense with China or sulking isolationism.


Well that bogeyman is alive and starting to kick again in my oppinion. Thats where I have deep understanding for the Polish fears which are not unfounded at all as has been shown in Ukraine and Georgia. But neither the EU nor Poland are handling the situation anywhere near perfect. While there is mistrust for Russia in the western countries too its by far not that deep as it is in Poland. Whatever the best policy towards Russia is has to be thoroughly discussed. Going on a direct confrontational course is one that should not be choosen lightly as the security not just of Poland is at stakes if Russias economic rise goes on and Russia starts to see the EU as a real Enemy not just a competitor for power in eastern Europe.
By Shade2
#990393
The difference between any other EU nation is quite low and even compared to the median both French and Polish deviations are not of that size that one could speak about a moral divide within the Union.


Even more reason for Poland to oppose creation of state structures that would be dominated by people with a worldview often hostile to our own.

Very similar differences probably can be found within the US between more secular states like California and states within the traditional south.

This is ridicoulous comparision. You can't compare differences in USA states that have been together for 200 years to historic and cultural differences between nations that clashed with each other for almost 1000 years and sometimes their eradication was the main goal of opposing nation.


As such religion never has been nor is a real dividing factor within the Union as the Union itself hardly encompases anything that is directly related to relgion.

Of course. There is hardly any controversy over God in EU constitution, the issue of abortion, the issue of homosexuality.
The discrimination of catholics in EU instutions has been widely publicised in Poland after a person was denied job in EU, because he was a catholic.

Though the way EU countries and the US handle specific aspects one principle remains with both, religion is mainly a private matter.

Hardly. EU instutions have demonstrated that they will enforce secularisation and discriminate catholics.


The EU is so big it could never be that anymore.

Of course it could be towards smaller nations as Poles or Czechs.
There are the Italians, the Brits, the Spagniards and the Poles.

Out of those only Poles were subject to forcefull Germanisation and share a border with Germany. Germanisation is still a issue for us.

The days of Franco-German dominance are over.

Germany is still pushing for EU constitution and tries to bring Russian assistance against Central European countries.

.
You take the boyeman of 140 million Europeans seriously, but not that of 300 million Americans (who are immeasurably more coordinated, militarily powerful and unilateral in their foreign policy).

Because neither do Americans share border with us, or will absorb us into their state, as you are proposing in regards to Germany.
I don't want to be too technical, but there was the little thing about "ever-closer union".

Which is undefinied and thus has no precise obligations.


But Europe is trully bound together,

Yes, the Iraq issue has shown this trully, when Germany, France and Russia joined together against Poland, Great Britain.

, it makes no sense to say that France or Germany (who do not constitute the whole EU) don't care about Poland's, or any Eastern European country's, interests.

Of course they don't care. In fact Germany pursues an active role in making Central Europe defencless towards Russian energy blackmail:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4961186.stm
Russo-German gas deal irks Poland
Russian workers laying the pipeline in February
Poland says it should have been consulted before the deal
Poland's defence minister has condemned a gas pipeline project which will link Russia and Germany via the Baltic Sea but bypass Poland.
Radek Sikorski reportedly compared the deal to a pre-World War II Nazi-Soviet pact dividing up Poland.
He said the move by Germany raised questions about the feasibility of a common European foreign policy.
The $5bn (£2.7bn) pipeline, agreed in September 2005, will connect Babayevo in Russia to Greifswald in Germany.
The 1,200km (744 mile) pipeline is now under construction and will deliver Russian gas to Germany - and eventually to other Western European nations - by 2010.
But it is set to bypass Poland, prompting concern in Warsaw that the new pipeline could be used to divert energy away from Poland for political purposes.
'Deals above our head'
Speaking at an international conference in Brussels, Mr Sikorski said the move by Germany did not bode well for plans for more integrated European Union cooperation on foreign and security affairs.
He said Germany should have consulted Poland before the deal. "Taking the decision first and consulting us later is not our idea of solidarity," he said.
Poland was sensitive to "deals above our head", he said.
"That was the Locarno tradition, that was the Molotov-Ribbentrop tradition," he said, quoted by Reuters news agency, referring to a 1939 pact between Stalin and Hitler which divided Poland up between Russia and Germany.
And he explained why Poland was worried. "The Russian ambassador to Belarus said last week when the Baltic pipeline is built, Gazprom will be able to cut off Belarus without cutting off Germany. That means Poland too."
The BBC's Jonathan Marcus says energy security is now one of the principal issues driving international diplomacy.
Russia's emergence as an energy superpower, ready and willing to use its market strength as a diplomatic tool, makes less powerful countries like Poland worried, he says.
The Baltic pipeline episode underscores the difficulty of separating energy diplomacy from old-fashioned power politics, our correspondent says.



East and West are bound together facing the same hopes and fears on economic and security issues.

Yes, Poles have experienced such "bounding" before in Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.

And now ?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,214 ... 44,00.html
The leaders of France, Russia and Germany met near Paris on Saturday


They will care about Eastern Europe so long as they still believe in the Russian bogeyman.

Russia is actively trying to regain its lost empire, with German assistance, by energy blackmailing.

I think it makes far more sense to turn to the negotiating tables of Brussels than the violent fads and erratic crusades of Washington.

There is no EU foreign policy to speak of.
Funny, to me its Germany and Paris that make violent fads and erratic crusades due to their irrational anti-americanism. They also allied themselfs with Russia. This is a clear and present danger to existance of Polish state. USA is far away and has no territorial or historic antagonism against us. Germany and Russia do.
Thus we should ally with USA.
This is about a process, where it will lead who knows, probably not a state in the traditional sense, so far it has created something unprecedented in History

Last time we had something unprecented in history due to "bounding" of West and East(Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty) it was the Holocaust.
Thanks but no thanks.
West European and Russian empire-building madness always results in tragedies.
Thankfully the world has USA to protect it.
. In the meantime European Defense Research will be a good way saving money.

I see no reason for Poland to surrender its military industry to the hands of German-Franco-Russian axis.


Though the way EU countries and the US handle specific aspects one principle remains with both, religion is mainly a private matter.

EU isn't a state. They are different ways of handling religion in various nations of EU.
There is one country in EU where Catholic cross is over the speakers stand in Parliament, president wears a Holy Mary picture on his suit, and the presidential couple kneel before Pope(guess which one).Does it happen in USA ?
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#990410
But neither the EU nor Poland are handling the situation anywhere near perfect. While there is mistrust for Russia in the western countries too its by far not that deep as it is in Poland. Whatever the best policy towards Russia is has to be thoroughly discussed.

I agree. One thing to bear in mind is there is no contradiction between European defense initiatives and NATO. In no way do I advocate withdrawal from NATO. What it boils down to is most European states (IE everyone but France and Britain, who still have global capabilities) have the same military role: (direct) national defense and peacekeeping.

There's no reason why to not save some money through European initiatives. If it grows into something, or spills over, then that wouldn't be a bad thing. That's how we came to the EU we have to today, the world's first genuine common market between states.

Out of those only Poles were subject to forcefull Germanisation and share a border with Germany. Germanisation is still a issue for us.

Germanisation? What year is this? Look, we're all going to be speaking English. Not French, not German, English. That's the only "ization" going on, and it's not necessarily a bad thing either (for France too for that matter).

Germany is still pushing for EU constitution and tries to bring Russian assistance against Central European countries.

Yes Germany wants it. But France and Holland said no so they're not going to get it. Disagreement is perfectly normal and the fact Germany doesnt get her way is just evidence of the masses of checks and balances (translate = deadlock) which characterize European decision-making

Last time we had something unprecented in history due to "bounding" of West and East(Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty) it was the Holocaust.

America did not lift a finger for Poland. Had it not been for Pearl Harbour they would have been perfectly happy to let the Nazis anihilate the Polish people completely.

I see no reason for Poland to surrender its military industry to the hands of German-Franco-Russian axis.

OK you're just mischaracterizing my views and engaging in slander.

I'll list my views clearly for anyone who cares:
- NATO membership is good and necessary
- European Defense Research would be a good way to save money and would involve input from all countries (including Spain/Poland/UK) not just France and Germany
- EDR might lead to spillover into other areas, the prime mechanism which led to the success of the European experiment
- EU membership requires a minimum of openness to new ideas about what should, or should not, be "European" policy
- None of this implies "Germanization" or any such nonesense, we're all going to speak English, we're all going to be Americanized to an extent, this is fine and normal
User avatar
By Zel
#990414
Germanization


Sometimes I wonder where some nationalist especially in Poland and England have lived during the last 60 years.
By Shade2
#990514
Germanisation? What year is this? Look, we're all going to be speaking English.

Many towns in Western Poland use German in shops, annoucments. Many young people from there prefer to study in Berlin and work there. There is a growing worry that this could lead to new cultural Germanisation in parts of Western Poland.

America did not lift a finger for Poland

America was in period of isolationism. It had no defence treaties with Poland and wasn't obliged to wage war on Poland's behalf. As soon as it went into alliance with Poland, it continued to support Polish independence till Poland freed itself from Soviet occupation.
But France and Holland said no so they're not going to get it.

Nope, people in referendum did, not governments.
Disagreement is perfectly normal and the fact Germany doesnt get her way

Then why are there still pushing it for it, when according to law it is dead.

- European Defense Research would be a good way to save money and would involve input from all countries (including Spain/Poland/UK) not just France and Germany

France and Germany are openly letting Russians control their corporations and firms. The combined power of those two(not mentioning even Russia) would lead to domination of Polish military industry by France and Germany. This would put Polish independence at peril because France and Germany are clearly pursuing an alliance with Russia to achieve hegemony over other European states.
- EDR might lead to spillover into other areas, the prime mechanism which led to the success of the European experiment

I am a Polish citizen, not a rat upon whom one makes experiments. I don't want to take part in any experiments on my nation, they were enough of them under German occupation.

- EU membership requires a minimum of openness to new ideas about what should, or should not, be "European" policy

Yes. Our Polish idea is that EU should defend Christian values as they formed Europe and engage in ever closer alliance with USA. At the same time Poland is advising to pursue a firm policy against Russian expanisonism, energy blackmail and totalitarian tendencies.
I hope EU will be open to our ideas about European policy.

Sometimes I wonder where some nationalist especially in Poland and England have lived during the last 60 years

Of course there are no nationalists in Germany.
A map from recent "newcomer" to German polical scene
Image
User avatar
By Zel
#990520
Then why are there still pushing it for it, when according to law it is dead.


Because there is no law that prohibits anybody to propose something even if it has once been voted on. Actually the treaty has already been ratified by a majority of European countries as opposed to 2 who have voted it down. So the idea itself is far from dead. Might take another trie to bring something up that is acceptable to more countries but the need for a better treaty has not vanished with the referendi. The Nize treaty is crap and thats not even disputed by anyone thats why the whole process to create a new treaty was started in 2001 at the Nize conference as everybody agreed that it was insufficient to run the Union on its basis.

BTW: The NPD is no newcomer to Germans political scene it has been around for decades now and has had no influence on German policies in any way.

And a terrible thought that Polish youth could go out into the world and get a good education and earn some decent cash . I know several people who spent some time in Poland studying and have myself considered it to do some of my studies in Cracow once I finish my Master. Its no one way transfer it goes both ways. But embarrasing your neighbours in every 2nd sentence will get you nowhere but to the point where your oppinion can be easily discarded.
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#990521
Because there is no law that prohibits anybody to propose something even if it has once been voted on.

You are incorrect. The constitution agreement clearly stated that constitution has to be ratified by ALL countries to work.
Actually the treaty has already been ratified by a majority of European countries as opposed to 2 who have voted it down.

According to law regarding this constitution it only needed ONE
rejection to be dead.
If two countries voted against it fufills the criteria to be dead.

So the idea itself is far from dead

It is dead, because it was rejected by two countries. It needed only one rejection.

The Nize treaty is crap

Yes its crap, because Poland and other countries have enough votes to oppose German dominance in EU.

and thats not even disputed by anyone

The slogan of one of Polish main parties(out of two) was "Nize or death!". This was the opposition party, the current ruling party was opposed to constitution also. Cheers.

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/3562/

Jan Maria Rokita, head of the Civic Platform (PO) parliamentary caucus was critical of Kaczyński's anti-EU rhetoric but he also called for amendments to the draft. "Nice or death," he said in defense of the vote distribution system for the EU Council agreed in Nice. The PO came up with their own draft resolution in which they described their support of the government as "conditional" and warned against a retreat from the government's firm position.



And a terrible thought that Polish youth could go out into the world and get a good education and earn some decent cash

If it means they will abandon their national identity(as many do in Germany), yes it is bad.


BTW: The NPD is no newcomer to Germans political scene it has been around for decades now and has had no influence on German policies in any way.

That is why I wrote "newcomer" not newcomer. And you forgot to mention that NPD is growing in power.
But it wasn't NPD that gave a highest Bavarian medal to somebody who served in elite bodyguard unit of Hitler...
It isn't NPD that praises Prussian state, claims parts of Poland belong to Germany, claims Hitler's colonists as victims of Poland, makes racist jokes about Poles in German TV.
This is a daily part of German media and society.

Its no one way transfer it goes both ways

Nope.I have yet to see Polonised Germans, while Germanised Poles are commonplace.
User avatar
By Zel
#990527
Yes its crap, because Poland and other countries have enough votes to oppose German dominance in EU.


The treaty is crap because it introduced 3 layers of majorities and did not touch essential problems of the EU struture (Commissioners, the legal nature of the EU, democratic deficit, transparency)

Not everything is about Poland or Spain. And it just happens that at 82 million to 40 million a votingweight of 29 to 27 just seems to be ridiculous. Same goes for 29 to 29 in the case of France the UK and Italy.

Which brings me to the conclusion that the council itself should not have weighted voting at all but rather than the much more proportional structure of the EU parliament should be used to represent population strenght in a the codecission process.

makes racist jokes about Poles in German TV.
This is a daily part of German media and society.


And it seems to be a regular part of other national media to make pranks on other nationalities all over Europe. Just get a sense of humor. Brits ridicule Germans and French, French ridicule Italians and Belgians, Italians ridicule Austrians, Austrians ridicule Germans and Czech and so on. Everybody does pranks provided on nationality or even regions. Dont know how many jokes there are about peoples of regions and their dialect in my country. Hey and wow everybody does ridicule themselves too. Its not the German problems that you dont have any clue of humor.
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 18:19, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#990530
And it just happens that at 82 million to 40 million a votingweight of 29 to 27 just seems to be ridiculous.

This are not only numbers, history and cultural context is behind them. Other European nations were very generous to give that give Germany voting rights in the first place after what Germany did to Europe. Seeing the resurgence of German nationalism, perhaps it would be wise to reduce German political power in EU rather then increasing it.
And you forgot to add that EU constitution gave the same votes to country of 38 milion as to country of 16 milion. So clearly it wasn't about population...
Which brings me to the conclusion that the council itself should not have weighted voting at all but rather than the much more proportional structure of the EU parliament should be used to represent population strenght in a the codecission process
.
That would mean smaller nations would be dominated by large ones. This is a bad idea as history shows to do in political organisation.


And it seems to be a regular part of other national media to make pranks on other nationalities all over Europe. Just get a sense of humor. Brits ridicule Germans and French, French ridicule Italians and Belgians, Italians ridicule Austrians, Austrians ridicule Germans and Czech and so on.

The difference is that Germans tried to exterminate Poles using the stereotypes presented in those racist jokes.
Its not the German problems that you dont have any clue of humor.

Do Germans make jokes about Jews trying to conquer the world ?
It is a German problem because those jokes use the same stereotypes that were used not long ago to mass murder Poles by Germans. I assure you, that people who were called "Polnische banditen" in concentration camps don't find German jokes about "Polish criminals" funny for reasons other then lack of humour.
Last edited by Shade2 on 03 Oct 2006 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
By SpiderMonkey
#990535
I find it amazing that some could think the US will dominate Poland less than the EU will. My main reason for wanting to see Britain more in Europe is that its quite clear we can have a more equal relationship with France and Germany than we can with the US. Being a US ally in reality amounts to being a US colony, as far as I can tell.

I'm also a little shocked to hear that the majority of people in a heavily catholic country support the death penalty, do you have any statistical sources?
User avatar
By ianulus
#990548
Shade2:

And I don't want EU to be a Franco-German protectorate.

That is, by all standards of sanity, a moronic statement. Get your definitions straight insted of just sputing buzzwords that suit your twisted view of reality.

Right now Poles are generating jobs and profits for EU. EU in return gives us fines, and people from Germany, England are buying up our house market, making it impossible to buy homes for Poles.

Care to provide a credible source for any of this?

Poland has its own R&D on pair of that of France or Germany in some areas. I see no reason to rely on countries that have proved several times they are hostile to interests of Poland.

If Poland can contribute, I'll be more than happy to see polish developements used in the german armed forces.

USA won't try to abolish our state. France and Germany are trying though.

Not true. You can polemically accuse me of trying to 'abolish' your state because I am a federalist, but then you have to acknowledge that I want the same for both France and Germany. And even then your criticism would be grossly excessive in the face of intellectual honesty. Political propaganda, that's all it is.

Maybe they don't trust France and Germany, because already Polish firms are engaged in R&D with USA defence firms.

It has nothing to do with trust, but domestic politics. Under your proposals there would be no polish firms to engage in any R&D. Maybe you should clearly state the conditions of your statements, instead of just lumping it all together in order to support your preconceived conclusions.

You're arguing for dependency, and sacraficing a load of freedom of action in the process.

Not true. Under my proposals, individual citizens would have exactly the same and hopefully more political influence then they do now.

They already did. For example despite majority of people in Poland supporting death penalty, it is imposible to do so.

Poland has voluntarily accepted EU human rights standards, and this is part of it. Moreover, Poland is perfectly free to leave the EU and do whatever it wants internally. I'm sure that's what you want. Does the majority of the polish people want that too?

In fact even discussion about it is forbidden.

Wrong. Provide some evidence to the contrary, then we'll talk.

There are no "europeans" they are Poles, Germans, Spaniards.

There are europeans, that is, the people that live in Europe, who are also Poles, Germans, Spaniards etc. . I know exactly what you want to say here, but you try to say it by a allegation that is plain wrong. Political propaganda again.

In any poll of "europeans" the fact that Germany and France have bigger population will give distorted results, because opinion in other country will be drastically different from average answer in global "european" poll.

Distort certainly not the right word here. If ther's distorted representation anywhere in the EU, it's in the COM, where small countries are overrepresented (with good reason, by the way).

National governments exist, because nations exist. Creating a state out of EU won't make nations and national interests disappear, in such state big nations will gradually dominate the smaller ones. Similiar things happened in the past. For example in Silesia, Ukraine, Lithuania etc.

Quoting those examples is utterly idiotic. I can think of one remotely aplicable example where such domination happened, that is the UK, and it is far from the kind of dominance you imply here. The overwhelming reason for english dominance that exists today in the UK is the huge population disparity - which does not exist in the case of the EU. In fact, the only cases I can think of that are comparable to the situation in the EU are american and indeed modern german federalism. In both cases, such dominance has not emerged.

This is ridicoulous comparision. You can't compare differences in USA states that have been together for 200 years to historic and cultural differences between nations that clashed with each other for almost 1000 years and sometimes their eradication was the main goal of opposing nation.

Nonsense. In fact, the US had even greater cultural and relitious differences to overcome in its nation building process than there ever were in Europe. The USA had a huge civil war over the level of individual states' sovereignty. They are not the unitary state you keep describing them as.

Besides, the EU is based on the idea that historic antagonism can be overcome. You don't think historic antagonism can be overcome? Do you deny that every generation shapes its own fate?

Of course it could be towards smaller nations as Poles or Czechs.

Since when is Poland a small nation in an EU context?

Germany is still pushing for EU constitution and tries to bring Russian assistance against Central European countries.

National governments have a natural incentive to find partners that provide the best deal. You're so big an national interests, you should understand this. The national interests of your neigbours aren't going to go away if your sovereignty is strengthened - They are going to get stronger. If you want maxumum freedom of action for Poland and minimum freedom of action for Germany, you are indeed harbouring imperial desires of your own.

Of course they don't care. In fact Germany pursues an active role in making Central Europe defencless towards Russian energy blackmail:

Germany persues its own energy security, plain and simple. Doing that without regard to polish interest is legitimate under the guidelines of nationalism. Your bitching about it is legitimate too, but if you want a Europe that consists of perfectly sovereign nation states that each follow their own national interest, there's no way you can expect Germany to feel obliged to give a flying fuck about polish energy security.

That's different in a federal Europe.

USA is far away and has no territorial or historic antagonism against us. Germany and Russia do

Germany has shown its capability and willingnes to overcome historic antagonism. You, and by that I mean you personally, are maintainig and exacerbating historic antagonism. You are the hatemonger here, noone else.
By Shade2
#990550
I find it amazing that some could think the US will dominate Poland less than the EU will.

Poles are a visible and large part of USA. USA shares similiar views and values as Poland. It is no threat to our national identity. It shares no border with Poland, so it has no territorial claims or historic conflicts.
Being a US ally in reality amounts to being a US colony, as far as I can tell.

Do you know that many people in Poland would like that ? :D
I'm also a little shocked to hear that the majority of people in a heavily catholic country support the death penalty, do you have any statistical sources?

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html? ... caid=126fb
77% Polaków akceptuje orzekanie kary śmierci za najcięższe przestępstwa.
77 % of Poles accept death penelty as punishment for heavy crimes.
Poll from March 2004, made by CBOS(this is one of the two main polling agencies in Poland-the other is OBOP).
By SpiderMonkey
#990556
Poles are a visible and large part of USA. USA shares similiar views and values as Poland. It is no threat to our national identity. It shares no border with Poland, so it has no territorial claims or historic conflicts.


Don't delude yourself. US values are US supremacy and thats about it. You can't hang yourself on the coattails of that and come off better for it. I know, because thats what my government has been doing.

Do you know that many people in Poland would like that ?


Why are you so quick to surrender your countries sovreignty to the US, yet you don't like the far more equitable alliance it has with the rest of the EU?

And as for supporting the death penalty - like I said I'm shocked a majority catholic country would support that. That and your annoying adoration of the US shows that your country has still got quite a way to go.
User avatar
By Zel
#990563
This are not only numbers, history and cultural context is behind them. Other European nations were very generous to give that give Germany voting rights in the first place after what Germany did to Europe. Seeing the resurgence of German nationalism, perhaps it would be wise to reduce German political power in EU rather then increasing it.


Actually its the opposite way around. Germany got its reunification in exchange for the Maastricht treaty that introduced the Euro and integrated Germany to an even deeper extend with the other European countries so Germany is essentially the one nation that from a purely nationalistic point of view is most constricted by the current structure. But the point is Germany is happy with it as it has lost its imperialist stance in the postwar era and today probably is one of the most pacifisticaly influenced countries in the world.

38 milion as to country of 16 milion


this is absolutly untrue. Poland has 2,375 times the votes of the netherlands. The new voting system takes into account both the transnational and the intergovenmental part of the council. As such a double majority would be needed to get a qualified majority 55% of member states and 65% of population.

77% Polaków akceptuje orzekanie kary śmierci za najcięższe przestępstwa.
77 % of Poles accept death penelty as punishment for heavy crimes.
Poll from March 2004, made by CBOS(this is one of the two main polling agencies in Poland-the other is OBOP).


And to put it up once again as you seem to be so fond of the US I will quote the PEW study that I linked some posts above.

And in Poland, the birthplace of the Pope and where the Catholic Church played a pivotal role during the communist era, just 36% say religion is very important.
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990567
Shade2, wrap your links, please.

77 % of Poles accept death penelty as punishment for heavy crimes.

77% of Poles directly oppose offical catholic doctrine then. Are they aware of that?
By Shade2
#990572
That is, by all standards of sanity, a moronic statement.

As usuall the desperate use insults when they lack arguments.
Already Polish laws are being dicated by French and German nationals in Brussels.
Already our moral values are being attacked by France and Germany.
More integration=less freedom in Poland.
Care to provide a credible source for any of this?

Sure:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercuryn ... 509162.htm
WARSAW, Poland - Klaudia Kocimska's dream is slipping away: She would love to own a small but modern apartment in downtown Warsaw, in walking distance to her office, with a little terrace for savoring long Sunday brunches.

Like many Poles hoping to buy a home, the 30-year-old journalist has resigned herself to painful compromises - having to live in a suburb and commute by car - as soaring housing prices driven partly by foreigners put much of the city's best property off limits to normal working people.


If Poland can contribute, I'll be more than happy to see polish developements used in the german armed forces.

I see no reason for Poland to support military of country where parties advocating annexation of Polish territory (NPD) are allowed to exist, and which country tries to ally with Russia.

You can polemically accuse me of trying to 'abolish' your state because I am a federalist, but then you have to acknowledge that I want the same for both France and Germany

Any European state would be dominated by Franco-German axis. Possibly with Russian help. In fact the creation of such state would be willing surrender of national independence to France, Germany and Russia who are in alliance.

Under my proposals, individual citizens would have exactly the same and hopefully more political influence then they do now.

Under your proposal the interest of my nation would be disregarded because there would be no national instituions.
The current ones of EU are dominated by French and German nationals and would serve their interests.

Poland has voluntarily accepted EU human rights standards, and this is part of it.

The protection of murderers and pedophiles from capital punishment is questionable as human right. EU refuses however to discuss this.



Wrong. Provide some evidence to the contrary, then we'll talk.

Sure.Even calls to reconsider are attacked:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1837082,00.html
Poland's rightwing president has been condemned across Europe after calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty.


There are europeans, that is, the people that live in Europe, who are also Poles, Germans, Spaniards etc. . I know exactly what you want to say here, but you try to say it by a allegation that is plain wrong. Political propaganda again.

And of course Turks, Russians, Moldavians, Swiss. Surely you don't believe those people are all identical "europeans" ?

Distort certainly not the right word here.

Sure it will distort the view. Ask all German citizens in 1939 if they are discriminated in their country. Would you claim the result wouldn't be distorted because it didn't take into account ethnic background of voters ?

Quoting those examples is utterly idiotic.

Again using insults.
The example is quite good. Both Poles and Lithuanians had the same rights in Commonwealth. But because of Polish wealth, population and influence many Lithuanians were polonised and lost their national identity.
Similiar thing happened to Poles in Silesia who were Germanised.
Those events were largly without the use of force, and were made by cultural contact.
There is nothing that says it can't happen again.

In fact, the US had even greater cultural and relitious differences to overcome in its nation building process than there ever were in Europe.

USA:One major civil war. Europe:2000 years of hatred, destruction, war and racism.


You don't think historic antagonism can be overcome? Do you deny that every generation shapes its own fate?

Yes, right now German generation shapes its own fate by allying with Russia, giving orders to former elite members of Hitler's bodyguard unit and voting for parties calling for annexation of Poland.


Since when is Poland a small nation in an EU context?

Since it has budget of 60 bilion dollars.

Doing that without regard to polish interest is legitimate under the guidelines of nationalism.

And that is why German and French governments supported EU constitution, because it represented their national interests.

Germany has shown its capability and willingnes to overcome historic antagonism

Yeah, right. Is that why German government funds organisation that is led by former Hitler colonist and attacks Poland ?

You are the hatemonger here, noone else.

Yes Polish people are known to be hatemongers against the peacefull nations of Germans and Russians. There are no nationalists in Germany and Russia, and governments of those countries always try to avoid dominating or controling Central Europe.
And in Poland, the birthplace of the Pope and where the Catholic Church played a pivotal role during the communist era, just 36% say religion is very important.

That is consistent with Polish poll i provided.
In it 44 % of asked said religion was crucial(bardzo istotna) for them. "Very important" differs from "important"

77% of Poles directly oppose offical catholic doctrine then
.
Nope, I am an atheist, but to my knowledge and talking to very active members of civilian organisations of Roman Catholic Church, there is nothing definitive in its doctrines that would deny the right of capital punishment.
User avatar
By Zel
#990576
So where do you see the main difference then between Polands religiousnes and that of the rest of the Union? Both are well below 50% with various degrees between 10 and 40. Well apart form the fact that the Polish though catholic support the death penalty. Well actualy I have contact with the catholic church and capital punishment is agreed to be against the doctrine as thats the word of the pope(s).

So as you are an atheist the whole religiousnes concept falters as I already pointed out above the real problem is furious nationalism and reactionary thought that uses catholicism to promote its causes.
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#990578
Both are well below 50%

Nope, in both cases in Poland there is way over 50 %.
Percent of adults who attend religious services at least once a week, for example:Church attendence:
Poland 55%
United States 44%
France 21%


Well apart form the fact that the Polish though catholic support the death penalty.

Which is acceptable according to Roman Catholic Church.
Last edited by Shade2 on 03 Oct 2006 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

Kinda like your previous post where you basicall[…]

Are you kidding, rent is a fucked up form of tax […]

So, we have evidence that migrants often voted in […]

it is very difficult to determine who the stupid[…]