MEPs urge COM to push ahead in opening up EU defence markets - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By Zel
#990581
Which is acceptable according to Roman Catholic Church.


Its not. Period. I wont be lectured by an atheist of whatever my religion allows and what not.
By Shade2
#990584
Its not. Period. I wont be lectured by an atheist of whatever my religion allows and what not.

Really ? Care to give me a clear declaration by Pope that "whoever makes capital punishment legal under law, makes a mortal sin" ?
Good luck.
So as you are an atheist

I don't believe in God, but I believe in Roman Catholic Church and its values. I support its existance and work in my society.
User avatar
By Zel
#990599
"I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary," he said. "Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform."


Your compatriot John Paul II while visiting the US. To give you a direct quote. Apart from that catholic organisations worldwide are fighting the death penalty.

Well one cant demand it from an atheist but

"Thou shalt not kill"
By Shade2
#990605
I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary," he said. "Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform."

Nothing about capital punishment being a sin. Nothing about forbidding it.
This is a PR statement. It warms the hearts of those who oppose the death penalty, but if you look at it closely its just an advice and no ruling towards the Church.
Sorry, you haven't presented a clear declaration by Pope that states "whoever makes capital punishment legal under law, makes a mortal sin".
Apart from that catholic organisations worldwide are fighting the death penalty.

And in Poland for introduction. :lol:


"Thou shalt not kill"

An executioner is not a killer.
User avatar
By Zel
#990607
Ending another ones live is killing. Simple as that. But as you said your an atheist I dont expect you to have a christian understanding of the value of life.

You sir are just a petty nationalist and racist. Nothing Poland might be proud of.
Happily you are not the only Pole I know thus I would have a bad impression of your country now.
By Shade2
#990612
But as you said your an atheist I dont expect you to have a christian understanding of the value of life.

Christian parties in Poland support death penalty :)

And as to other values, while we are at it:
www.ipis.pl/artykul_rodzaj.php?idartyku ... l=&od=1100
Aż 85 procent społeczeństwa potępia małżeństwa homoseksualne – wynika z najnowszych badań TNS OBOP.
85 % of society condemns homosexual marriage, newest polls by TNS OBOP conclude.
The same poll is mentioned here, with more information
http://www.kosciol.pl/article.php?story ... 5015545520
W porównaniu z poprzednim badaniem przybyło Polaków, którzy nie akceptują małżeństw homoseksualnych – dziś 85 proc, dwa lata temu – 82 proc. i kapłaństwa kobiet – dziś 75 proc., wzrost o 7 proc. Aż 48 proc. Polaków sprzeciwia się aborcji (wzrost o 3 proc.) i eutanazji (1 proc. więcej).

In comparision with polls made in the past, more Poles oppose homosexual marriages, today they are over 85% while two years ago they were only 82%, the same goes for appointing women as priests, today 75$ oppose this, an increase of 7%. Over 48% Poles oppose abortion (increase by 3%) and euthanasia (increase of 1%).

You sir are just a petty nationalist and racist.

I am not racist. I don't believe people have racial traits that determine their thinking or beliefs.
User avatar
By Zel
#990617
I am not racist. I don't believe people have racial traits that determine their thinking or beliefs.


Well apart from Germans, who arent human by any definition arent they?
By Shade2
#990624
Well apart from Germans, who arent human by any definition arent they?

It is sad to see people escaping from rational discussion, when they have no arguments. I expected more from you.
I don't believe Germans have inbreed traits that determine their thinking or beliefs.
However there is much in their culture that needs to be dealt with if they want good relations with Polish nation.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990626
Under your proposal the interest of my nation would be disregarded because there would be no national instituions.

Wrong.

Sure.Even calls to reconsider are attacked:

And how does this amount to its discussion being forbidden? The only thing that has been said, is that Poland would face possibel expulsion from the EU if it were to reintroduce capital punishment, which is perfectly in line with the rules accepted by Poland. Moreover, Poland is free to initiate a debate about EU human rights policies and try to get those rules changed.

Yeah, right. Is that why German government funds organisation that is led by former Hitler colonist and attacks Poland ?

Don't confuse one special interest group with the whole country. There's plenty of opposition to that particular group.

Yes Polish people are known to be hatemongers against the peacefull nations of Germans and Russians. There are no nationalists in Germany and Russia, and governments of those countries always try to avoid dominating or controling Central Europe.

Well, the polish government has certainly been busy hatemongering in recent months, along with parts of the media. Moreover there are far more nationalists in Poland than in Germany.
User avatar
By Zel
#990632
It is sad to see people escaping from rational discussion, when they have no arguments. I expected more from you.
I don't believe Germans have inbreed traits that determine their thinking or beliefs.
However there is much in their culture that needs to be dealt with if they want good relations with Polish nation.


As you seem to have before there are going to be any good relations with Germany.
User avatar
By Zel
#990634
It is sad to see people escaping from rational discussion, when they have no arguments. I expected more from you.
I don't believe Germans have inbreed traits that determine their thinking or beliefs.
However there is much in their culture that needs to be dealt with if they want good relations with Polish nation.


As you seem to have to do before there are going to be any good relations with Germany. And I doubt I was escaping "rational discussion" as there never may be any with nationalists whatever they are German, Polish, French or whatever other nationality.
By Shade2
#990635
Well, the polish government has certainly been busy hatemongering

Nope. Polish goverment was defending Polish nation from attacks made by German nationalists in political parties, government and media. German media like FAZ or SZ in particular consider every defence of Poland "hatemongering" and every criticism of German nationalism "antigermanism". They are pretty nationalistic themselfs(particulary FAZ).
There's plenty of opposition to that particular group.

How big was opposition to Stoiber's award to former Waffen SS member that served in elite Hitler bodyguard unit ?
How big is opposition to racist jokes about Poles in Germany that are shown in TV?

Moreover there are far more nationalists in Poland than in Germany.

BS and I can prove it easly. There are no Polish parties that call for annexation of Ukraine, Lithuania or Belarus. Furthermore Poland has excellent relations with both Lithuania and Ukraine, something Germany can't tell for its relations with Poland. There no such people as "Polish Steinbach" that would attack Ukraine or Lithuania.
There is a legal party in Germany that calls for annexation of Poland.
And here is their map, straight from their official page:
http://www.npd.de/medien/artikelimg/artikel7.jpg

Image
Last edited by Shade2 on 03 Oct 2006 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Zel
#990639
There is a legal party in Germany that calls for annexation of Poland.


Which was tried to ban but couldnt be acchieved at that moment. But it probably will be tried again if there is certainty that the case is waterproof. Do you prefer them to unconsitutionaly ban them thus promoting their cause?
By Shade2
#990644
Which was tried to ban but couldnt be acchieved at that moment.

So you admit that such party and views exist in Germany.
Certainly nationalism is bigger in Germany if parties get elected on platform calling for annexation of neighbours territories.
I don't recall such parties in Poland.

Which was tried to ban but couldnt be acchieved at that moment

A simple question:was it tried to be banned because of its territorial demands against Poland ?
User avatar
By Zel
#990648
They dont get elected because the want to annex Poland they get elected because the areas they gained suport in are totaly fucked up economicaly and people are desperate for anybody who tries to show them an alternative or get back on the establishment. Their main issues in recent elections are fighting the government and the democratic system itself. So the NPD is much more about a fight against todays Germany than it has anything to do with Poland.

And no it was tried to be banned because it is at its core a neonazi group. As parties may only be banned due to legaly found reasons I doubt a simple demanding of Polish teritory is enough to ban a party. Or would a party be banned in Poland if they demanded a certain area returned (purely hypthetical). I doubt such laws exist in Poland under which such a case could be made. Though as the EU treaties demand the recognition of all other member states and their borders any government (not party) that would openly propose such things would get in some deep trouble (maybe even to expulsion).
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#990654
They dont get elected because the want to annex Poland they get elected because the areas they gained suport in are totaly fucked up economicaly and people are desperate for anybody who tries to show them an alternative or get back on the establishment.

Sorry but part of their program is annexation of Poland. It wasn't invented by Polish "hatemongering" media, but it was written by German citizens.
It wouldn't be written if it didn't exist among their wishes and it wouldn't be attractive to their political views.
If it is clear part of their programm(as it is) it is them perfectly legitimate to believe that voters who vote for it, find it attractive.
So the NPD is much more about a fight against todays Germany than it has anything to do with Poland.

I am a Pole, and I clearly see a map with Polish territories marked, and I clearly read statements of their members calling for annexations.
The case is clear. A party exists in Germany calling for annexation of Poland. So far as I see it, it is still legal.
It is voted for.
User avatar
By Zel
#990658
I am a Pole, and I clearly see a map with Polish territories marked, and I clearly read statements of their members calling for annexations.
The case is clear. A party exists in Germany calling for annexation of Poland. So far as I see it, it is still legal.
It is voted for.


Yes and I as an Austrian see the map too beeing pissed off like you are. But I am not pissed of at the whole of Germany but on those fuckheads who propose those things. I dont hold the German government or people responsible for what a small radical party wants (that has never had any seat in the federal parliament as I might add)

I doubt such laws exist in Poland under which such a case could be made.


Would you please answer the implied question. Is there such a law in Poland or not?
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 19:55, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990661
Wikipedia wrote:Nationalism is an ideology that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles.


In Germany, political parties can only be forbidden based on the rule of law, not on the basis of what is suspected to be their real agenda. All extreme right wing parties are very careful to stay within the law.

By the way, you keep posting that one picture on an NPD server as 'proof' that some how Germany wants half of Poland back. I'd like to know the context in which it is actually used by them. I'm pretty sure they don't openly advocate the use of force or any other form of coercion - because if they did, the'd get banned in no time. You should also mention the real level of support they have all over the country - that is, almost none, as well as the real amount of power they have - that is, even less than they have support.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990666
Sorry but part of their program is annexation of Poland. It wasn't invented by Polish "hatemongering" media, but it was written by German citizens.

The hatemongering consists in that small fringe group being described as a significant force in this country.
By Shade2
#990686
The hatemongering consists in that small fringe group being described as a significant force in this country.

Small enough to gain represantives in local parliaments and Berlin city districts. It was you wrote that "Poland has more nationalists then Germany". Well, Poland has no parties advocating annexation of Lithuania or Ukraine.
But its only one part of nationalism in Germany. CSU and CDU have many nationalists also who attack Poland or praise past imperialism of Germany. Occasionaly SPD also sometimes produces them.
I'm pretty sure they don't openly advocate the use of force or any other form of coercion - because if they did, the'd get banned in no time.

http://www.nd-online.de/artikel.asp?AID=96103&IDC=2
So verspricht die NPD, sie würde – wäre sie an der Regierung – sofort die deutschen Soldaten von den Auslandseinsätzen zurückzuziehen. Denn dabei würden sie nur für »Interessen der US-Konzerne« eingesetzt.
Andere deutsche Kriege bleiben der Nazipartei dann aber doch genehm. Für die Interessen der »deutschen Heimat« wäre der Bundeswehreinsatz angebracht, sagt die Partei, die eine »Revision der nach dem Krieg abgeschlossenen Grenzanerkennungsverträge« verlangt.



I doubt such laws exist in Poland under which such a case could be made.


Would you please answer the implied question. Is there such a law in Poland or not?

I doubt,nationalism isn't as strong in Poland as in Germany, and no parties advocating annexation of territories in neighbouring lands exist(to my knowledge). Thus we never had any need for such law. Parties advocating National Socialism, Fascism or Communism or any other totalitarian state system are however disallowed.

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