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User avatar
By Zel
#990709
I doubt,nationalism isn't as strong in Poland as in Germany, and no parties advocating annexation of territories in neighbouring lands exist(to my knowledge). Thus we never had any need for such law. Parties advocating National Socialism, Fascism or Communism or any other totalitarian state system are however disallowed.


Which seems quite identical to the laws in Germany. So the only point you can make is that there is a party which is constantly screened by the German domestic inteligence service that proposes such a thing (with a voter base of below 1%).

Beeing polemic about Poland just is not against any law as is beeing polemic about Germany in Poland. So dont demand of others what you have proven over and over again to do yourself.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990710
Neues Deutschland wrote:So verspricht die NPD, sie würde – wäre sie an der Regierung – sofort die deutschen Soldaten von den Auslandseinsätzen zurückzuziehen. Denn dabei würden sie nur für »Interessen der US-Konzerne« eingesetzt.
Andere deutsche Kriege bleiben der Nazipartei dann aber doch genehm. Für die Interessen der »deutschen Heimat« wäre der Bundeswehreinsatz angebracht, sagt die Partei, die eine »Revision der nach dem Krieg abgeschlossenen Grenzanerkennungsverträge« verlangt.


Shade2, I don't know how well your grasp of the german language is, but this does not proove that they call for the forceful revision of borders. They call for the military to only be used in the national interest and seperately they call for the revision of the german-polish border.

I don't doubt that they would like to revise the border by force, but the point is they can't openly call for that, because they would get banned before they could say "polish thiefs". I also think that they would loose a load of voters if they did call for it openly.
By Shade2
#990721
So the only point you can make is that there is a party

That wants to annex Poland.
There is no such party in Poland that proposes annexation of Ukraine or Lithuania. Yet as usuall a German poster boasts that there are more nationalists in Poland then Germany. This is completely justified since Germany is known for its lack of any nationalism at all.

(with a voter base of below 1%).

Since I posted every time a poll confirming my numbers, care to post yours where that number is referenced ?
In Mecklenburg it received over 7% of votes.
I don't doubt that they would like to revise the border by force, but the point is they can't openly call for that,

Ah, so a party advocating annexation of Poland is having a 7% of support in local elections in Mecklenburg.
You claimed that there are more nationalists in Poland, so please tell me which party in Poland has demanded to annex territories of Ukraine and Lithuania and had over 7% support in local elections.
User avatar
By Zel
#990732
0,3* 1990 0,0* 1994 0,3* 1998 0,4* 2002 1,6* 2005


Have to admit with the last elections they made it above 1% though this is their best result for almost 30 years.

And to your point about a lower amount of nationalists. Well thats a case of different viewpoints I guess. From my point of view Samoobrona, PiS, LPR do all fall within this category.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990740
Yet as usuall a German poster boasts that there are more nationalists in Poland then Germany.

That is because more poles subscribe to the definition of nationalism I gave above.

This is completely justified since Germany is known for its lack of any nationalism at all.

During the last couple of decades, german nationalism has been very weak indeed.

Code: Select allEndgültiges Ergebnis der Bundestagswahl 2005:
      Erststimmen   Zweitstimmen
[...]
NPD:   1,8%         1,6%
[...]

Source: Bundeswahllleiter

Ah, so a party advocating annexation of Poland is having a 7% of support in local elections in Mecklenburg.
You claimed that there are more nationalists in Poland, so please tell me which party in Poland has demanded to annex territories of Ukraine and Lithuania and had over 7% support in local elections.

Again, they're not advocating outright annexation of anything. If they did, they'd get banned.
By Shade2
#990752
That is because more poles subscribe to the definition of nationalism I gave above.


Of course Germany has a party that wants to annex Poland, Poland doesn't. But in the end as usuall the Poles are nasty uncivilised nationalist while the civilised Germans can't be accused of any nationalism(even when they vote for parties that want to annex Poland).

During the last couple of decades, german nationalism has been very weak indeed.

Pfff. The results represent only voting for NPD. Other parties like DVU or CSU, and a fair number of CDU are nationalistic as well. Media such as FAZ and SD also promote German nationalism.

Again, they're not advocating outright annexation of anything. If they did, they'd get banned.

Sure, after all there is no nationalism in Germany. The map on the site is just a drawing error.
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/19/1041663.html
Für die NPD ende "der Pommernbegriff nicht an der Oder, sondern umfasst Land, das heute zu Polen gehört". Als dann Andrejewski beginnen will, seine Weltsicht auszubreiten, wird er von Marx gebremst. Wo die Staatsgrenze zwischen Deutschland und Polen verlaufen müsste, das will er jetzt nicht thematisiert wissen.


http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34239,3634692.html
My domagamy się Niemiec w historycznych granicach - powiedział w czwartek w Berlinie Udo Voigt, przewodniczący neofaszystowskiej partii NPD.
We demand Germany in historical borders, said on Thursday in Berlin Udo Voigt, chief of neo-fascist party NPD.


From my point of view Samoobrona, PiS, LPR do all fall within this category.

None of those parties propose annexation of Ukraine or Lithuania. If you compare them to NPD then it shows how hatefull and ignorant look is towards Poland in Germany.

But of course Germans are always civilised and orderly, its those vile Poles that are nationalists. Even when a party exists in Germany that openly states it wants to take Polish territory and no such parties exist in Poland.
User avatar
By Zel
#990753
None of those parties propose annexation of Ukraine or Lithuania. If you compare them to NPD then it shows how hatefull and ignorant look is towards Poland in Germany.


I never claimed that they are. I claimed that they are nationalist which you have not gone down to contradict.

BTW you are starting to sound like a parrot repeating phrases over and over doesnt make them more valid.
By Shade2
#990758
Where is there more nationalism ?
In country where parties exist that want to annex territory of neighbouring country ?
Or in country that has no such parties and enjoys excellent relations with countries that have taken former territories it possesed.
http://www.president.pl/x.node?id=20119 ... Id=6527468

On 30th September 2006 the President of the Republic of Poland Mr Lech Kaczyński took part in celebration of the 750th anniversary of Lvov. The President was accompanied by Ms Maria Kaczyńska and Ministers in the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of Poland: Head of the Chancellery of the President Mr Aleksander Szczygło and Undersecretary of State Mr Andrzej Krawczyk.

On board of the Polish special flight from Warsaw to Lvov was the President of the Republic of Lithuania Mr Valdas Adamkus, who had been paying an official visit in Poland since 29th September.

The Presidents of Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine held talks regarding international issues. They spoke by phone with the President of Georgia Mr Mikhail Saakashvili about the situation in the region. They also signed a joint declaration on protection of Lvov’s cultural heritage.

The Presidents together with their Spouses also took part in the inauguration ceremony of the 750th anniversary of Lvov in the National Opera and Ballet Theatre.
In his address delivered during the ceremony the President of the Republic of Poland said:

”Presidents, your Eminencies, Archbishops, Ladies and Gentlemen!

750 years ago Daniel Halicki, a Ruthenian prince founded a fortified castle, which over time transformed into a great city; a city with a unique history, where indeed the roads of various cultures and nations came to cross. We in Poland remember that this city for centuries remained part of the state, which we call the 1st Republic, that it was a model of multiculturalness and multinationality. Living here were Ukrainians, Poles, Armenians, Jews as well as representatives of other nations. If there is any city here, in this part of Europe, which was the model place of cohabitation of various cultures and nations, then it is our Polish conviction that it was Lvov. Lvov, which contributed enormously to Polish culture and Polish politics. It was here that various social, democratic and political movements arose. It was here that for a time the only university, later one of two universities, existed where one could teach and speak in Polish. It was finally here that many eminent Poles were born and lived, including Ignacy Mościcki, the most durable President of the 2nd Republic. I therefore have to admit that I come to this city deeply moved. This city is an example of cooperation and cohabitation of various nations and is a place of special beauty. To wit this 106-year old Opera building where on the ceiling I see images of Polish operas yet today it is Ukrainian opera and we are very much aware of this.

I think that it is extremely significant that today in independent, indeed durably independent Ukraine the President of this country Mr Viktor Yushchenko invites the Presidents of Poland and Lithuania to the celebration of the 750th anniversary of Lvov. It is truly highly significant and I think it is very meaningful and good for all of us, for the inhabitants of Lvov who constitute a magnificent part of the Ukrainian nation, for all Ukraine but also for Poland, for Poles, for Lithuania and Lithuanians. We live today in a world completely different than 20 years ago, in a world, which not all expected would come. In fact rather few did expect it. But then this world is completely transformed where Lvov may be an example of cooperation between different nations and cultures. I laid wreaths and flowers at the monument of Your Hero, but merely 200 metres away – if not less – I saw a statue of the greatest poet in Poland’s history – a poet who came from the Lithuania of those times and who began the “Pan Tadeusz” great Polish national poem with the words: “Lithuania, my Homeland!” It was and is so – and it makes no sense to question history. Thousands of my fellow countrymen come from your city, thousands had family here – actually I also had some relatives in Lvov, though we were distantly related. Today Lvov is a Ukrainian city, developing magnificently, in many of its parts stunningly beautiful – and may this also be so in the future. Indeed it will be so in the future, but it will be very good if it at the same time is an example of cooperation between Lithuanians, Ukrainians and Poles, in fact even reaching beyond that.

I am most sincerely convinced that short will the time be before Ukraine becomes part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and that only a few more years will have to pass before we become fellow Member States in the European Union. But cooperate – cooperate closely indeed – we must today. And the relations between President Viktor Yushchenko – and I saw on the streets of Lvov how popular he is here – and myself, the President of Poland as well as President Adamkus should demonstrate what should be the status not only today but also tomorrow, in the coming years and decades. Because only together can we hold our due place in Europe, a place due to historically European nations, nations of great culture, which contributed enormously to the history of Europe and indeed the world. And this is what I want to wish sincerely to you Ladies and Gentlemen, inhabitants of this magnificent city, to the whole Ukrainian nation, its authorities, also to the people of Lithuania and their authorities. Thank you very much.”

After the end of the ceremony the President of the Republic of Poland laid flowers at the monument of Adam Mickiewicz.



The claim that Poland is more nationalistic then Germany is easly contradicted by the fact that they are no political organisations in Poland advocating annexation of territories of Ukraine and Lithuania, and Polish government enjoys excellent relations with those two countries.
If it would be nationalistic it wouldn't be so.
On the other hand, Germany sponsors many organisations who lay claim, in one way on the other upon Polish territories. Germany has a party advocating annexation of Polish territory.

Clearly one country has managed to reconcille with countries that have now its former territory. One has not and continues to act in hostile manner.
One cannot claim that a country that enjoys excellent relations with countries that possess its former territories is nationalistic, while a country that has horrible relations with country that has its former territory(due to its sponsoring of revenchist organisations and existence of territorial demands) isn't nationalistic.


BTW you are starting to sound like a parrot repeating phrases over and over doesnt make them more valid.

Again insults ?
I shall repeat time and time again this simple phrase:
No territorial demands by parties exist in Poland towards Ukraine and Lithuania. Poland has excellent relations with both Ukraine and Lithuania.
Territorial demands exist in Germany towards Poland. Germany has horrible relations with Poland.

Who is more nationalistic then ?
User avatar
By ianulus
#990763
Let me tell you, again, what nationalism is:

Wikipedia wrote:Nationalism is an ideology [1] that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles.


Concerning what the NPD proposes, I don't doubt that a lot of their members indeed want to annex poland. That is, however, not what the party line is and what they campaign on. They're trying very hard to hide their real views, and succesful with respect to the uneducated masses.

The reality is that the NPD is full of neonazis but gets elected on relatively moderate campaigning, they are not banned because they stay withing the law. You somehow construe that to "Germans want to invade Poland again". That's just not true, and your intellectual approach to this has been extremely dishonsest.
User avatar
By Zel
#990766
As you are using purely nationalistic sentences equating Germany with one small faction and seeing this as perfectly rational you as I said before are a nationalist sir. And as such oppinions have been voiced by several Polish parties that form the Polish government I see Poland as having a very serious nationalistic problem or at least a serious case of collective paranoia (which comes down to the same thing in the end).
By Shade2
#990770
Let me tell you, again, what nationalism is:

Wikipedia wrote:
Nationalism is an ideology [1] that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles.



Nationalism is widely used as general term of wide beliefs connected to territorial demands and cultural ideas of supriority of certain nation
Ah so you would claim then, that according to political theory from that article :

annexing territory which is considered part of the national homeland. This is called irredentism, from the Italian movement Italia irredenta.

It would be ok to write :
Germany has nationalists irredentists party, while Poland doesn't have them ?


As you are using purely nationalistic sentences equating Germany with one small faction

CSU, CDU, DVU, NPD, BdV.And that is not all when it comes to nationalism in Germany...
And I am using NPD only as example that territorial demands exist in Germany to this day.


I see Poland as having a very serious nationalistic problem or at least a serious case of collective paranoia (which comes down to the same thing in the end).


If that would be the case, Poland wouldn't have excellent relations with Ukrainians and Lithuanians who engaged in mass murder of Polish people during WW2.
Yet we were able to establish friendly relations.
Perhaps, just perhaps it is Germany's fault it can't establish them with us.
Have you thought about it?
User avatar
By Zel
#990781
Perhaps, just perhaps it is Germany's fault it can't establish them with us.


Well up to the issues with your new president relations were quite relaxed. And especially Polish-Ukrainian relations havent been all too good in the past and may deteriorate again if the new goverment realigns itself with Russia.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990782
Nationalism is widely used as general term of wide beliefs connected to territorial demands and cultural ideas of supriority of certain nation

Maybe by politicians, but not by anyone trying to use precise termonilogy.

It would be ok to write :
Germany has nationalists irredentists, while Poland doesn't have them?

That would at first glance be correct. It sitll applies that making this statement without mentioning the tiny amount of irredentists in this country in order to stir up paranoia is extremely dishonest.
By Shade2
#990792
Well up to the issues with your new president relations were quite relaxed.

Nope, the relations were pretty bad, but swept under the rug.
And sorry you are completely incorrect. Kwasniewski was president when Schroeder signed deal with Russia over the pipeline and when Poland helped USA in Iraq, which made Germans furious, as well BdV attacked Poland. It was when Kwasniewski was president that Germans filmed movies about their innocence "The Fall" and talked about being victims. making this statement without mentioning the tiny amount of irredentists in this country in order to stir up paranoia It was when Kwasniewski was in power that Germans made demans against Poland that invoked an unanimously vote by Polish Parliament that recalled that Germany has yet to pay war reperations to our country(540 billion euro).
Thus the problems were way before Kaczynski came to power.
I would rather say, its Merkels governments attempts to re-establish German nationalism

And especially Polish-Ukrainian relations havent been all too good in the past
Completely incorrect.
Poland was first to reckognise Ukraine's independence after 1991. It pursued a policy of friendship throughout the whole time. It is one of cornerstones of our national foreign policy.

and may deteriorate again if the new goverment realigns itself with Russia.

Janukowicz already engaged in friendly talks with our government. And besides that would be political problems, although unlikely. The overall attitude towards Ukraine is very positive.
And they are no territorial demands made by any parties.


It sitll applies that making this statement without mentioning the tiny amount of irredentists in this country

If they get representation in local parliements they are hardly tiny, but legitimate part of political mainstream of Germany.

in order to stir up paranoia

Yes, Poles constantly scheme against the peaceloving non-nationalistic Germans. In fact it was Pole disguised as Stoiber that talked about Prussia being part of Germany and later gave medal to former member of Waffen SS that served in elite bodyguard unit of Hitler.
Last edited by Shade2 on 03 Oct 2006 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Zel
#990793
Nationalismus as in Manfred G. Schmidt Wörterbuch der Politik (dictonary of politics)

N. dient auch der distanzierten-abschätzigen Bezeichnung für ein übersteigertes, meist intolerantes und militantes Streben, das auf die als höchsten Wert verstandene Macht und Ehre der eigenen Nation zielt.


As you seem to be able to translate German I wont do it for yourself.

And sorry you are completely incorrect. Kwasniewski was president when Schroeder signed deal with Russia over the pipeline and when Poland helped USA in Iraq, which made Germans furious, as well BdV attacked Poland. It was when Kwasniewski was president that Germans filmed movies about their innocence "The Fall" and talked about being victims. All of which was seen by Poles.
Thus the problems were way before Kaczynski came to power.
I would rather say, its Merkels governments attempts to re-establish German nationalism


Differences on foreign policies does not make one enemies you are allies if you have forgotten.
BTW it was "The downfall" and I dont see where that film was nationalistic. Showing that humans commited those vile acts in my oppinion is much preferable to creating movie monsters that cant be related to reality. Actualy the downfall is one giant step in German development of selfawareness when it comes to those crimes. And BTW at about the same time a bunch of movies were produces showing the execution and process against christian resistance fighters and national socialist indoctrination.
I realy doubt that you have even watched the movie in question.
Last edited by Zel on 03 Oct 2006 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By ianulus
#990802
It sitll applies that making this statement without mentioning the tiny amount of irredentists in this country
If they get representation in local parliements they are hardly tiny, but legitimate part of political mainstream of Germany.

I have enough of this. If you're uwilling to admit even the most obvious of circumstances, I'm not going to debate with you any further.
By Shade2
#990808
In other words you have nothing to deny obvious truth.
In Germany nationalism gains ground and Germany has territorial demands against its neighbours.
In Poland there is no party with territorial demands against Ukraine or Lithuania.
Poland has excellent relatiosn with Ukraine and Lithuania.
Germany has horrific relations with Poland.

The conclusions who is more nationalistic and who is to blame for bad relations are obvious.

Your claim that Poland is more nationalistic then Germany has been proven wrong.
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#990810
As soon as it went into alliance with Poland, it continued to support Polish independence till Poland freed itself from Soviet occupation.

Yalta?

Nope, people in referendum did, not governments.

How does that change anything? Look, all it takes is a single veto. It's happened millions of times before: de Gaulle's "empty Chair", Thatcher's "our money back" veto and now the Franco-Dutch "no!" This is natural and to be expected, it's a consensual process and there's absolutely no reason to feel threatened by it.

Then why are there still pushing it for it, when according to law it is dead.

What the Eurocon? Well there's always room for compromise. The prime problem with the Eurocon was that it was an example of unspeech, it used too many words to say nothing.

France and Germany are openly letting Russians control their corporations and firms. The combined power of those two(not mentioning even Russia) would lead to domination of Polish military industry by France and Germany. This would put Polish independence at peril because France and Germany are clearly pursuing an alliance with Russia to achieve hegemony over other European states.

Gibberish. Look, if you want to live in the 1930s forever, be my guest. Some of us have moved on and understand that in Europe we live increasingly without borders, without animosity, indeed, without sufficient militaries to even threaten one another.

Our states serve our people, they are foremost welfare states, no less.

I am a Polish citizen, not a rat upon whom one makes experiments. I don't want to take part in any experiments on my nation, they were enough of them under German occupation.

Then I should hope you lobby right now to leave the EU. The EU is an experiment, it has been ever since the Cold and Steel Community. An experiment in fraternity and kinship to end war and the hateful nationalism which brought our continent 2 world wars.

I hope EU will be open to our ideas about European policy.

That's what it's about. You know, I hope the Poles don't end up like the British. The British rejected every idea from the start, ended up regreting their emotionalism and joining 10 years later, and then complaining that they didn't have enough of a say in shaping the institutions..

I get the impression from speaking to you that Poland is still an extremely insecure nation. It's natural enough given Poland's often extremely tragic history since the end of the Commonwealth but it's rather sad that NATO and EU membership is not enough to dispel this.
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#991136
Shade, you're just unreasonable. You make it sound like Western Europeans demonize Poles... believe me, Poles are the last thing on our minds (minus the "Polish plumber" fad).
User avatar
By ianulus
#991484
This is not what this topic is about.

Thank you. Back to topic.

I think, apart from the expectable reservations of national governments, the biggest obstacle to integration in developement and manufacture of military equipment are the companies involved. They have a lot of lobbying power and will be working hard to prevent such a thing - after all, a lot of the savings will be on their cost, or at least it appears so on first glance.

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