Anarchism & Israel/Palestine - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14538078
Hi,

I was wondering because of a discussion (read: flame war) with anarchist23 at the I/P-forum why anarchism is naturally on the side of the Palestinians for being the party under occupation. I find it absurd based of my understanding of anarchism and find anarchist23 a fake anarchist but of course I could be wrong because my understanding about anarchism is rudimentary at best.

The general anarchist position does not surprise me, granted, because Israel is in the position power but I'd welcome a detailed explanation. Is the position universal among anarchists, or just among hipster anarchists and people who are just against everything?

I found this article The Palestinian Struggle and the Anarchist Dilemma. Any elaboration? Thanks.
#14538082
Neither side should be tolerable to anarchists but I am not surprised that they would take the Palestinian side due to Israel being just so anti-socialist and pro-hierarchy. Although this must be contrasted against the clear fact that anarchists are much more tolerated and able to grow in Israel. So there is a clear contradiction.
#14538084
Just calm down. You seem upset and so you have started this pathetic thread. Don't cry.

There is no contradiction between anarchism and supporting the right of an oppressed people to have their own state if they want to. Anarchism is all about freedom, and freedom includes the right to be wrong (that is, to chose what we anarchists would not). This does not mean that we should not be open in saying that we do not advocate a Palestinian or any other state. We hope that over time the Palestinians would learn that it was a mistake to form a new state (as opposed to a federation of communities and workplaces) and make a change. But that would be their choice, the decision of Palestinian workers and peasants and small merchants. For anarchists to declare, we will not support you against your oppressors unless you agree with our full program, would be arrogant and imperialist-minded.
#14538086
Dagoth Ur wrote:Neither side should be tolerable to anarchists but I am not surprised that they would take the Palestinian side due to Israel being just so anti-socialist and pro-hierarchy.


I don't see how Israel is 'anti-socialist'. There are heavy socialist elements within Israeli society and law or is it because its nationalism is ethnocentric? Also, Arab tribal culture is extremely hierarchical.

anarchist23 wrote:Just calm down. You seem upset and so you have started this pathetic thread. Don't cry.


I don't see what's so pathetic about being curious.
#14538087
Using logic to reconcile different positions just isn't what anarchists are about. Kibbutzim are probably the closest thing to an anarchist society in the modern world, yet the Palestinians are "oppressed". What a conundrum. As always with anarchists, the result is thus:

Image
"I am an anarchist.
Hear me roar
."
#14538096
First point: Ignore anarchist23, the human avatar of all that is wrong with individualism.

Second point: Personally, I swing much more towards Israel. The Israeli population has progressive tendencies which wouldn't even get an airing in the Islamic shitfest any Palestinian state would become and the "oppressed good, oppressor bad" meme liberals like to spout about is pure bollocks. Liberating a people from relatively light chains, only for them to throw even heavier chains on right after killing you benefits neither them or you.
#14538103
At least I live my politics and I am willing to take the consequences whether it is court or prison. WAKE UP

A first possible response, he writes, is to accept that there is inconsistency in “endorsement of Palestinian statehood by anarchists,” (but to endorse it anyway due to the primary value of solidarity. It may be the only “pragmatic,” “viable,” way to counter the Palestinians’ oppression “in the short term.” (pp. 154-5) (I am reviewing his opinions, which I find thought-provoking, but not yet stating my own.)

A second possible response, he suggests, would deny that there is any inconsistency for anarchists. Palestinians already live under a state, that of Israel (including in the Occupied Territories). To demand that Palestinians live under a Palestinian state instead of under that of Israel would not be unprincipled for an anti-statist, he argues. At most it would be just as bad for the Palestinians; at best, it might be somewhat better, due to the removal of direct foreign oppression.

His third response is “anarchists can support a Palestinian state as a strategic choice…” one step in a long term struggle. Obviously, the region will not move immediately into anarchism; there will be many stages to go through. Decreasing the tensions between the Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs can open things up for further struggles around gender, sexual orientation, and class in each nation. Having got what they wanted, the Palestinians may learn the limitations of statist solutions and continue the struggle on a new basis.

A fourth response may seem to completely contradict the other three responses. It is to ignore the issue of national statehood while supporting day-to-day Palestinian struggles for jobs and dignity. This includes defending farmers from attacks by Jewish settlers, opposing the wall when it cuts through villages, taking apart roadblocks, etc. Anarchists can be engaged in as united fronts with nationalists, without agreeing with their politics. Israeli anarchists may loyally participate in them without endorsing a Palestinian state. He cites the work of Bill Templer, an anarchist, who recognizes that there will be an eventual two-state settlement in the short run, but focuses his work among Israelis and Palestinian villagers around such issues as resisting the wall. Templer believes that such work will someday lead to a “dual power” situation as it “hollows out” the state and capitalism.
#14538110
danholo wrote:I don't see how Israel is 'anti-socialist'. There are heavy socialist elements within Israeli society and law or is it because its nationalism is ethnocentric? Also, Arab tribal culture is extremely hierarchical.

Israel did have socialist aspects at one time but those have been fully replaced by liberal economics. In no sense whatsoever does Israel practice anything close to socialism as the word is understood.

Also I agree with you about arab tribalism (if only islam had actually rooted it out completely ). But I think most anarchists view dominant reactionaries to be the worst in all cases.
#14538114
Could you source your quotes, anarchist23?

ComradeTim wrote:First point: Ignore anarchist23, the human avatar of all that is wrong with individualism.

Second point: Personally, I swing much more towards Israel. The Israeli population has progressive tendencies which wouldn't even get an airing in the Islamic shitfest any Palestinian state would become and the "oppressed good, oppressor bad" meme liberals like to spout about is pure bollocks. Liberating a people from relatively light chains, only for them to throw even heavier chains on right after killing you benefits neither them or you.


This is my understanding of what a 'true' anarchist might think but I must be wrong because many anarchists I have encountered are for the Palestinian struggle.

It seems as if many anarchists who do side with the Palestinians are more to the left than actual 'anarchists'. As far as I'm concerned, anarchy shouldn't be on any side of the political spectrum. The anarchic position anarchist23 quoted about 'the freedom to be wrong' makes sense, however.

Dagoth Ur wrote:Israel did have socialist aspects at one time but those have been fully replaced by liberal economics. In no sense whatsoever does Israel practice anything close to socialism as the word is understood.


This hearkens to the realization above but why should anarchism take the side of socialism? Isn't anarchism completely independent of any political ideology? Also, it's not like Arab society is that 'socialist', either.

Also I agree with you about arab tribalism (if only islam had actually rooted it out completely ). But I think most anarchists view dominant reactionaries to be the worst in all cases.


Who are you referring to with 'dominant reactionaries'?
#14538118
danholo wrote:This is my understanding of what a 'true' anarchist might think but I must be wrong because many anarchists I have encountered are for the Palestinian struggle.

It seems as if many anarchists who do side with the Palestinians are more to the left than actual 'anarchists'. As far as I'm concerned, anarchy shouldn't be on any side of the political spectrum. The anarchic position anarchist23 quoted about 'the freedom to be wrong' makes sense, however.


You won't find many true anarchists any more. Sex, drugs and rock and roll individualism combined with liberal petty moralism is easier than using a coherent analysis to liberate the working class.
#14538197
I'm not privy to the debate between danholo and anarchist23, so I can't speak to that. However, speaking as an anarchist, the problem, at least as far as I can tell, is that Israel occupies Palestinian land and continues to expand settlements there. This interferes with the self-governance of the Palestinians. This is not to mention the continued political and financial aide given to Israel from the US, where both states utilize each other for power and control over the region. This is my understanding of the matter, and I think most anarchist positions that speak critically of Israel (and the US) and its role in the conflict.

danholo wrote:It seems as if many anarchists who do side with the Palestinians are more to the left than actual 'anarchists'.


I'm not sure what you mean by this...what is your understanding of anarchism?
#14538200
The position of anarchists/nazists/fascists/socialists/communists/muslims on the Israel-Palestine is coehrent in the sense that they all want the destruction of Israel. They see Israel as a common enemy. What would happen on that disputed territory after Israel is gone is ultimately irrelevant for them.

The truth is that they just can't care less about the Palestines, they use them as a scapegoat. If the Palestines did not exist, they would find another reason to justify their hate toward Israel.
#14538213
The position of anarchists/nazists/fascists/socialists/communists/muslims on the Israel-Palestine is coehrent in the sense that they all want the destruction of Israel. They see Israel as a common enemy. What would happen on that disputed territory after Israel is gone is ultimately irrelevant for them.

The truth is that they just can't care less about the Palestines, they use them as a scapegoat. If the Palestines did not exist, they would find another reason to justify their hate toward Israel.


This post sounds for reactionary, more than anything. To my knowledge I am not aware of any anarchists saying they wish to see the destruction of Israel. Perhaps some anarchists have argued that Israel should allow for non-Israelies to hold governing positions (which might radically alter Israel), but this is different.
#14538264
A23 says he believes in the 67 borders which is hardly radical or truly anti-zionist.

This has been pointed out to him but he refuses to debate it and just snaps at those who call him on it. Claiming personal attacks.

At one level I suppose you can support hamas simply for attacking the more powerful, pro capitalist force. Seems pointless though as it would be defeat even in victory.
#14538396
Supporting the 67 borders is explicitly Zionist. A 23 is a fucking joke. Every inch of Israel is occupied territory, stolen from Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Palestine.
#14910169
@Zionist Nationalist

And Israel is apparently not? Ashkenazim aren't even native to the region. They are, for all intents and purposes, European. Furthermore, you should look into how empires are actually run before stating that "Palestine doesn't exist".
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