"1421: The Year China Discovered America" is the dumbest book ever. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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End of Roman society, feudalism, rise of religious power, beginnings of the nation-state, renaissance (476 - 1492 CE).
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#14771814
"1421: The Year China Discovered America", the book discover advanced ancient China.

But, the basic facts are: China was very backward in history.


1) China entered metal age 1000 years later than Middle East, Europe, South Asia.
Bronze Age, Wikipedia

2) China entered Iron age 600 years later than Europe and Near East.
At the time, European used iron tools, Chinese used primitive tools.
Iron Age - Wikipedia

3) Glass was invented 5500 years ago, it was before the Chinese history.
History of glass, Wikipedia

4) When European and Middle Eastern built stone/brick houses, Chinese kings lived in a mud palace.
The Great Pyramid of Giza was built 4500 years ago.

Erlitou, the capital of China(2100 BC – 1600 BC) was built by mud.
Erlitou culture - Wikipedia

5)Cannibalism

a) Till 1900, in China, a death row inmate would be chopped into 1000 pieces.
(Death by a Thousand Cuts (book) - Wikipedia)
Lingchi - Wikipedia


Liu was executed by death by a thousand cuts.
Onlookers bought a piece of his flesh for one qian (the smallest currency at the time) and consumed it with rice wine.
Liu Jin, Wikipedia

Yuan was executed by death by a thousand cuts.
Many Beijing residents rushed to buy his body parts so they could eat them as soon as the body parts were sliced off from his body...
Yuan Chonghuan, Wikipedia

b) When Japanese, Mongols, Manchus inavded China, they all ate human fresh there.

Japs also killed and consumed some American in WWII.
Chichijima incident, Wikipedia

c) Some Chinese gerenals oredred their soliders to ate human fresh as daily meal.
Huang Chao used hundreds of stone mortars to grind human flesh.
Massacres in ancient history | The World of Chinese
Huang Chao, Wikipedia

Zhu had some 200,000 men, Zhu then encouraged his soldiers to eat women and infants, stating, "Human flesh is the most delicious flesh. As long as there are people around, we need not worry about hunger."
Zhu Can , Wikipedia

b) In China, human sacrifice continued until Manchuria conquered China.
(Manchus ruled China for 300 years till 1911.
Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia)
Human sacrifice - Wikipedia

6) Those Chinese inventions are jokes.

6.1) Italy invented the compass.
The pointer of the ancient Chinese compass was as big as a spoon.
The spoon was put on a board, with nothing else.

Compass, Wikipedia
History of the compass, Wikipedia, (Chinese Compass "Si Nan", photo)

6.2) Chinese declare that the Chinese treasure ship was the most advanced ship hundreds years ago.
It was a punt ship. It was not advanced.
Chinese treasure ship - Wikipedia

6.3) Chinese declare that China invented the world’s first earthquake detector.
"It was a bronze vessel. Eight dragons snaked face-down along the outside of the barrel, marking the primary compass directions. In each dragon's mouth was a small bronze ball. Beneath the dragons sat eight bronze toads, with their broad mouths gaping to receive the balls..."

-- BS.


6.4) Till today, all Chinese inventions are jokes.
Chinese microchip
The chip was later revealed to be a duplicate of a chip developed in the West, with the original identifications sanded away.
Hanxin - Wikipedia


And European knew China well at that time

1) China was enslaved by Mongol, Manchu, Xianbei, Khitan, Jurchen Empires for over 1000 years.

Mongols killed 50% of Chinese.

Chinese population was over 100 million before Mongol invasion.
At the time of Marco Polo, 100 million Chinese were enslaved by 300,000 Mongols.

Before Mongols, China was enslaved by Jurchen for about 100 years.
Men of Chinese royal family were sold into slavery in exchange for horses with a ratio of ten men for one horse.
Chinese Queen was forced to work in whore house.
Jingkang Incident - Wikipedia


2) Hundreds years ago, European fleets went to china, and took the Chinese city Macau as their base.
Hundreds years ago, European fleets went to Asia, and ruled Philippines.
European Knew China was very backward.
- “The Spanish Plan to Conquer China”.

And the "the Advanced China" soon was defeated by Manchus.


1) China was ruled by Manchus for 300 years till 1911.
The population rate was 1 million Manchus VS 100 million Chinese.
Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia

2)Manchus had the right of the first night in China.

3) Queue Order
When the Manchus defeated China, Chinese men were forced to wear a queue or they would be killed.


4) Chinese slaves
Millions Chinese were sold by Manchus as slaves to many countries.
Chinese slaves were called as Coolie or piglets.
Seventy-five percent of the Chinese coolies in Cuba died before fulfilling their contracts.
More than two-thirds of the Chinese coolies who arrived in Peru died within the contract period.
Coolie - Wikipedia

Photo: The Manchurian army which conquered China, and ruled China for 300 years till 1911. IMAO.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... d_City.jpg
#14771822
Your anti-China vitriol seems to be particularly insistent since you've double posted 3 times back to back in your thread.

I've merged your posts and moved this to the history section of the forum.

Perhaps you can explain more about the book 1421: The Year China Discovered America, and why you think the author's thesis is wrong?
#14771829
The Chinese/Sinophiles like to hype that China is a civilization-state that has withstood the test of time for several millennia, and that they could have conquered the known world, had they the right emperors/policy-makers at the time. It's basically a form of historical revisionism and extremely jingoistic 'ethnic nationalism', where all others 'races' are deemed as inferior. Or in other words: Han Chinese with big mouths.
#14771831
@MB.

It is so easy to answer your quwstion. Since your question is a joke.
Why China did NOT discover America?

1) Chinese declare that the Chinese treasure ship was the most advanced ship hundreds years ago.
It was a punt ship. It was not advanced.
Chinese treasure ship - Wikipedia


2) At that time many Chinese were killed in south East Asian.
The "powerful" China was NOT able to send a fleet to save their now people in a place very close a China.
And soon the "advanced China was enslaved by Manchuria tribe people.

Photo: The Manchurian army which conquered China, and ruled China for 300 years till 1911.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... d_City.jpg

China had NO the ability to discover America at that time.

Edit, can we edit our post or not?

The "powerful" China was NOT able to send a fleet to save their now people in a place very close TO China.
And soon the "advanced China was enslaved by Manchurian tribe people.


The Sabbaticus wrote:
The Chinese/Sinophiles like to hype that China is a civilization-state that has withstood the test of time for several millennia, and that they could have conquered the known world, had they the right emperors/policy-makers at the time. It's basically a form of historical revisionism and extremely jingoistic 'ethnic nationalism', where all others 'races' are deemed as inferior. Or in other words: Han Chinese with big mouths.


Chinese have a big mouth, They were not able to defeated anyone, Chinese were enslaved
for over 1000 years.


1) Before Mongols, China was enslaved by Jurchen for about 100 years.
Men of Chinese royal family were sold into slavery in exchange for horses with a ratio of ten men for one horse.
Chinese Queen was forced to work in whore house.
Jingkang Incident - Wikipedia


2) Before Jurchen, China was enslaved by khitan for about 100 years.
Chinese Kings had to call Khitan Khans as father.
Shi Jingtang (Chinese king, a puppet of Khitan), Wikipedia
Shi Chonggui (Chinese king, a puppet of Khitan), Wikipedia
Emperor Zhenzong of Song (Chinese King, China paid tax to Khitan for over 100 years) , Wikipedia


3) Tibet invaded China and took the Chinese capital in the year 763.
Tibetan Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both Mongols and Manchus Conquered Tibet and China.
The first time China defeated Tibet was 1950.
Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China, Wiki

4) In 1900, a small foreign army invaded China, it took Beijing and lost only 60 soldiers.
Battle of Peking (1900) - Wikipedia


5) In WWII, Japan invaded China, Japan took the Chinese capital and lost only 2000 soldiers.
Battle of Nanking, Wikipedia
Nanking Massacre , Wikipedia
The Rape of Nanking (book) - Wikipedia

Politically correctness = lies.
#14771839
The voyages of Zheng He were actaully hugely important and a testament to the prestige of the Ming empire.

I would gladly respond to your critiques point by point, but I don't know where to start since it seems evident your real beef is with "political correctness" rather than history.
#14771840
Yes you can edit your post by clicking on the button that looks like a ball bearing.

Your claim:
kateman wrote:1) Chinese declare that the Chinese treasure ship was the most advanced ship hundreds years ago.
It was a punt ship. It was not advanced.
Chinese treasure ship - Wikipedia


Is nowhere stated in the wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship

In contrast it says:

The purported dimensions of the largest of these ships at 137 m (450 ft) long and 55 m (180 ft) wide[3] would make these ships at least twice as long as the largest European ships at the end of the sixteenth century.


From that one can easily deduce that you have been misrepresenting everything else as well.
#14771841
The size of the ships is actaully very interesting, and it is not difficult to demonstrate that their dimensions were similar to those of the capital ships being built by European kings at the beginning of the 15th century. I think those dimensions provided by wikipedia are a serious exaggeration.

The wikipedia article links to this article:

https://monoskop.org/images/7/70/Needha ... hysics.pdf

Which I will note is a 1962 study that clearly does not represent the latest archaeological findings. I wasn't able to find the figures cited by wikipedia in that document.

The relevant portions cited by wikipedia come from part 3 of Needham's volume 4...

This is part 2...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=SeGyrCfYs2AC

But again, the pages are not displayed for the citation wikipedia used.
#14771843
@MB
MB said: Your anti-China vitriol

It is sad, Now people have to fool themselves to be politically correct.

How come China was advanced??
1) China entered metal age 1000 years later than Middle East, Europe, South Asia.

Bronze Age, Wikipedia

2) China entered Iron age 600 years later than Europe and Near East.
At the time, European used iron tools, Chinese used primitive tools.
Iron Age - Wikipedia

3) Glass was invented 5500 years ago, it was before the Chinese history.
History of glass, Wikipedia

4) When European and Middle Eastern built stone/brick houses, Chinese kings lived in a mud palace.
The Great Pyramid of Giza was built 4500 years ago.

Erlitou, the capital of China(2100 BC – 1600 BC) was built by mud.
Erlitou culture - Wikipedia

And, how come those Chinese inventions were real?

5) Middle East invented writing 5000 years ago.
Middle East invented printing 5000 years ago.

It was before the Chinese history.


Johannes Gutenberg invented Printing press, (the machine).


6) Greece invented gunpowder.
Greek fire, its chief ingredient was saltpeter and sulfur, making it an early form of gunpowder.

China was ruled by Manchurian tribe for 300 years till 1911.
The population rate was 1 million Manchus VS 100 million Chinese.
Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia

Manchus had the right of the first night in China.
Queue Order
When the Manchus defeated China, Chinese men were forced to wear a queue or they would be killed.



The world did not wait for China to invent the gunpowder.

7) Italy invented the compass.
The pointer of the ancient Chinese compass was as big as a spoon.
The spoon was put on a board, with nothing else.
Compass, Wikipedia
History of the compass, Wikipedia, (Chinese Compass "Si Nan", photo)

noemon wrote:Yes you can edit your post by clicking on the button that looks like a ball bearing.

Your claim:

Is nowhere stated in the wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship

In contrast it says:



From that one can easily deduce that you have been misrepresenting everything else as well.


Mod edit: Redacted
1) I said it was a punt, it was NOT an advanced ship.
All You can say is that it was very big.


2) And You "advanced" China soon was enslaved by Manchurian tribe people.
China was ruled by Manchus for 300 years till 1911.
The population rate was 1 million Manchus VS 100 million Chinese.
Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia

Manchus had the right of the first night in China.

Queue Order
When the Manchus defeated China, Chinese men were forced to wear a queue or they would be killed.


Chinese slaves

Millions Chinese were sold by Manchus as slaves to many countries.
Chinese slaves were called as Coolie or piglets.
Seventy-five percent of the Chinese coolies in Cuba died before fulfilling their contracts.
More than two-thirds of the Chinese coolies who arrived in Peru died within the contract period.
Coolie - Wikipedia


Photo: The Manchurian army which conquered China, and ruled China for 300 years till 1911. IMAO.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... d_City.jpg

Those old photos can prove that China was never an advanced country.
Last edited by noemon on 04 Feb 2017 12:54, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Rule 2 Violation
#14771851
Do you have any actual arguments or you'll keep talking bullshit with no sources and can be easily proven wrong by a simple google search ?

As i asked before which you simply refused to answer.
Who do you define as "Chinese" ?
Because historically China is a group of nations that was united under an empire. Where every few centuries a new ruling dynasty would take the thrown as i have given the sources in the other thread. And just as every empire in known history is, China was.

For discovering America.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... s-ago.html
#14771866
MB. wrote:The voyages of Zheng He were actaully hugely important and a testament to the prestige of the Ming empire.

You are right, the OP is a baseless rant against China. It is, however, true that Gavin Menzies is a fantasist who invention most of what he wrote. For a factual analysis of Chinese inventions refer to Joseph Needham's monumental work 'Science and Technology in China.'

The Chinese did equip a couple of missions, of which one went as far as the Arabian peninsula, at a time Arab traders had been going back and forth between Arabia and South China as a matter of routine for centuries. Even during the Tang, there were hundreds of thousands of Arab/Muslims living in the port cities of China. But any Chinese missions going further than that is pure invention. Historians are unanimous about their judgement of Gavin Menzies.

The Chinese did build huge ships to transport the imperial family with a large entourage in style and comfort in inland waters. The big ships weren't seaworthy. The Chinese missions were equipped at huge cost and had a diplomatic objective, which was largely symbolic. They were abandoned because there was no economic benefit to justify the exorbitant cost. Anyways, the Arab traders were quite sufficient to assure trade.

Chinese civilization was ahead of both Arab and European civilization until about the 15th century. During the Tang, more books were published in China than in the rest of the world together. That only changed with Gutenberg. Starting with the 16th century, Europeans took the lead in navigation (Portuguese), shipbuilding (British) and gun making (continental Europe), which lead to the colonial conquest and the subsequent accumulation of wealth and flowering of the arts in Europe. Chinese development was largely held back because the Manchus occupied China as a foreign warrior ruling elite during the Qing.
#14771867
Atlantis wrote:Joseph Needham's monumental work 'Science and Technology in China.


Do you have a copy of Volume four, part three of Needham's book (Civil and Nautical engineering)? If so, can you verify what dimensions are given for the Zheng He flagship on page 480?

Atlantis wrote:But any Chinese missions going further than that [the Arabian peninsula] is pure invention


Zheng He also visited Africa, although apparently this is not well known.
#14771869
MB. wrote:Do you have a copy of Volume four, part three of Needham's book (Civil and Nautical engineering)? If so, can you verify what dimensions are given for the Zheng He flagship on page 480?

No, I only have two volumes of the concise version at home. I did read parts of the complete works at a library during my study of sinology, but that's nearly 40 years ago.

There must be a discussion about Gavin Menzies and the seaworthiness of the big ships somewhere on the net. The Chinese mission used smaller ships to navigating along the coast, which did get them to the Arabian peninsula and perhaps Somalia, but I don't think they went further than that. They would never have gone across the Ocean as Menzies claimed and there are no records whatsoever to suggest anything of the kind. And the Chinese have always been very good at recording and archiving things.
#14771874
Those who are interested can watch a documentary made about Gavin Menzies and his work here:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/1421-the ... d-america/

i can't say that I've read the book myself, however, I have been variously exposed to the Zheng He / Columbus comparison on several occasions and I cannot say that it holds water, or needs to be discussed beyond popular history. The importance of Gavin Menzies, it seems to me, is as a popularizer of the Zheng He voyages themselves, which, as I've mentioned, are terribly important and deserving of wider study and attention.

The obsession with 1492 and all that seems to say more about popular history of the west than it does about China or the Ming role in the world system during the great divergence.
#14771878
The importance of Gavin Menzies, it seems to me, is as a popularizer of the Zheng He voyages themselves, which, as I've mentioned, are terribly important and deserving of wider study and attention.


I have only read a few articles on this, but it seems to fit with recent findings that all of the ancients traveled earlier, further, and more often than we earlier believed. This was no real surprise to me as humans are insane and some of them would naturally have attempted 'ridiculous' voyages. Thor Heyerdahl demonstrated the possibilities.
#14771881
Atlantis wrote:Chinese development was largely held back because the Manchus occupied China as a foreign warrior ruling elite during the Qing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria
Manchuria (Manchu: ᠮᠠᠨᠵᡠ; romanised: manju; simplified Chinese: 满洲; traditional Chinese: 滿洲; pinyin: Mǎnzhōu) is a modern name, first created by Japanese, given to a large geographic region in Northeast Asia. Depending on the context, Manchuria can either refer to a region that falls entirely within the People's Republic of China, or a larger region divided between China and Russia. The region that falls entirely within modern China is now usually referred to as Northeast China (simplified Chinese: 东北; traditional Chinese: 東北; pinyin: Dōngběi) in China, although "Manchuria" is widely used outside of China to denote the geographical and historical region. This region is the traditional homeland of the Xianbei, Khitan, and Jurchen (later called Manchu) peoples, who built several states historically, although no term for "Manchuria" exists in the Manchu language, which originally referred to the area as the "Three Eastern Provinces".


Image
Image

Change of dynasties. Thats how empires work, several dynasties replace each other.
Some changes of regime are bloody, just like it was. Doesn't mean it was a conquest.
When we created the Timurid empire, that was a bloody change as well since we subdued all other factions in Persia. That doesn't mean we "conquered" Persia. It means we took over the thrown by force. And thus same happens in China.

The "Manchus" whom aren't actual people to begin with rather its called the Qing dynasty were Chinese not foreign conquerors. The only thing that made them different is that they came from a peasant minority called Jurchen whom are people that migrated into China centuries earlier and began integrating with the Han.
There migration was in the late 11th century and early 12th century.
Image
Then the Mongols came along, then followed by a fully united China for the first time in centuries under the Ming, then the Qing dynasty.

Chinese people are all of those groups since before that, there was no such thing as "China".
There were several nations living near by each other each with different name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_China


For the America thing.
The discovery of the Americas has for centuries been credited to the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus, but ancient markings carved into rocks around the US could require history to be rewritten.
Researchers have discovered ancient scripts that suggest Chinese explorers may have discovered America long before Europeans arrived there.
They have found pictograms etched into the rocks around the country that appear to belong of an ancient Chinese script.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... s-ago.html
Last edited by anasawad on 04 Feb 2017 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
#14771885
The Manchu/Jurchens did not "integrate" into the Han, they conquered Song territory militarily and established their own dynasty, the Jin, and then eventually toppled Ming China during the civil war of the 1640s.

The term Manchoukou was indeed invented by the Japanese but it is simply a katakana rendition of the term Manchuria which was apparently created by Emperor Hong Taiji in the early 17th century to describe the steppe Jurchens. The people living in Manchuria, by whatever name you desire to call them, have been involved in Chinese history since the beginning and were responsible for founding the Jin dynasty during the collapse of the Song in the 12th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynas ... %80%931234)

I was not impressed with anasawad's research on this matter.

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