Trump and Russiagate - Page 165 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14952410
There is a long history of spying etc between Russia and the US. I wonder how long it took, after the election of the head of the KGB, for Putin to realise that this was just plain wrong, and become an extra goodie two shoes? :evil:
By skinster
#14952414
One thing doesn't = another.

If the Russians interfered/colluded/yadayada with the stupid American election, they failed because Clinton won the popular vote anyway.

:lol:
#14952445
Hindsite wrote:It may be hard to believe, but it appears that Deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein just made friends with President Trump.
Was it to keep from getting fired?

Apparently both Andrew McCabe and Lisa Page claim that Rod Rosenstein was interested in wearing a wire to record Trump and to use the product to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove him from office.

TOP FBI LAWYER TOLD CONGRESS ABOUT ROSENSTEIN ALLEGATIONS, INTERACTION WITH REPORTER
FBI lawyer's testimony at odds with Rosenstein denial on 'wire' report

I don't think that Trump and Rosenstein are "friends." Clearly, Rosenstein was doing Schumer's bidding in appointing a special counsel. I think after the election, there will be some staff changes at the DoJ.

jimjam wrote:An insane power hungry wannabe fascist dictator is given effective control over all 3 branches of the federal government largely short circuiting America's system of checks and balances. He is now even getting a wack at putting the so called supreme court on his payroll.

So it sounds like you are resigning yourself to losing in November.

jimjam wrote:I'll stay with the devil I know rather than the one I do not yet know.

I like living on the edge...

jimjam wrote:America's last and best hope may well lie in the upcoming elections. If that fails …. Oh Well. I had the good years. Good luck...………….

Nancy Pelosi saves the day? He he. I don't think her memory is much better than Blasey-Ford's these days.

jimjam wrote:Three months before the 2016 election, a small group gathered at Trump Tower to meet with Donald Trump Jr., the president’s eldest son. One was an Israeli specialist in social media manipulation. Another was an emissary for two wealthy Arab princes. The third was a Republican donor with a controversial past in the Middle East as a private security contractor.

<Cue Spooky Music>

Really jimjam? A couple of Wahhabist Muslims and a Jew conspired to elect Donald Trump? That's the encore to the Russia investigation?

jimjam wrote:In 74 years I have never seen such an atmosphere of division and hatred in the land.

So you think it's worse than Vietnam? I spent the early years of my life in Berkeley, CA. I lived about two blocks from People's Park. There was always something going on there. Lots of tear gas. I could say "Watergate" and "Vietnam" but I had very little concept of what any of it was about as I was so young. I remember watching some of the later Apollo missions as a wee kid. However, in Berkeley, you really couldn't get away from people talking about Vietnam and Nixon. I remember my mom saying, "C'mon Nixon, resign!" to the television.

I've said for years--even before Trump got into the race--that there were forces swirling behind the scenes to take down the Clintons. Nobody really listens to me, but I've been more right than wrong. So I find it a bit surprising people are suddenly realizing that things are changing rapidly.

Stormsmith wrote:There is a long history of spying etc between Russia and the US. I wonder how long it took, after the election of the head of the KGB, for Putin to realise that this was just plain wrong, and become an extra goodie two shoes? :evil:

Ok. Now try that on the other foot. "I wonder how long it took after the election of the former head of the CIA (George H.W. Bush) for him to realize that this was just plain wrong, and he became an extra goodie two shoes..." You do realize that the things you complain about in Russian politics happened here in America first, right? Is the retort going to be, "but... we're America. We're the good guys!"? It's not like we haven't interfered in Russian politics in the last 70 years. :roll:
#14952455
skinster wrote:One thing doesn't = another.

If the Russians interfered/colluded/yadayada with the stupid American election, they failed because Clinton won the popular vote anyway.

:lol:

In America, elections are rigged using the electoral college, which is a highly vulnerable system for manipulation. Does noone remember Bush?
#14952457
Crantag wrote:In America, elections are rigged using the electoral college, which is a highly vulnerable system for manipulation. Does noone remember Bush?

Most Americans do not understand the US constitution. Bork got "Borked" for pointing out that one-man one-vote is not in the US constitution. It isn't. There is no individual right to vote for the president. It is up to the states to determine how they want to allocate their electors. There wasn't a nation-wide popular vote in early America.

Bush won Florida. There is no question. The Democrats wanted a third recount that would have taken the vote past the day for reporting their vote, which is expressed directly in the constitution. SCOTUS simply made them report the election results. It did not change the vote in any way. In fact, thousands of military ballots that went 3:1 for Bush were not counted.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 of the Constitution wrote:The Congress may determine the Time of chusing [sic] the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

The constitution is clear that they must report on the same day. They cannot change or delay the day, and that is exactly what the Democrats were trying to do.
By Sivad
#14952476
Crantag wrote:In America, elections are rigged using the electoral college, which is a highly vulnerable system for manipulation. Does noone remember Bush?


The electoral college is maybe not the ideal way to go about it but we do need to achieve a balance of interests. Majority rule is not inherently fair or just and if we went by simple majorities politicians could just ignore most of the country and politics would be dominated by a handful of large overpopulated metropolitan areas.

half of the United States population is clustered in just the 146 biggest counties out of over 3000
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5227a78e6bb3f70f68316148-960-624.jpg
#14952483
Sivad wrote: if we went by simple majorities politicians could just ignore most of the country and politics would be dominated by a handful of large overpopulated metropolitan areas.


Correct.

The United States is not a democracy, nor was it meant to be one. Indeed, the founding fathers hated democracy and feared it.

They intended to develop a system of minarchist government with checks and balances that was mixed and inherently self-conflicted in order to prevent it from ever devolving into any form of tyranny; whether that be autocratic, democratic, or aristocratic. This is why the "monarchal" principle was exhibited in the executive branch, and the "aristocratic" was developed in the senate v. the "democratic" in the house of representatives. Indeed, for most of U.S. History, senators were not voted in by popular vote at all (which tells you what the fathers really intended for that legislative body).

The fathers were so fearful of popular vote, they even had land requirements for voting for some time that varied at the state level.

The electoral college, regardless of its flaws, is probably one of the last remaining vestiges of this principle along with the rights of local governments to determine their own voting districts (gerrymandering).

Both of these help to prevent the urban masses from tyrannically imposing their will and large swaths of land-and-population that are drastically different in their worldviews and have dramatically different lifestyle needs and concerns.

The left should understand this principle of majority rule being balanced on other grounds, namely, minority rights. Minorities are not simply squashed under majoritarian rule, but have civil rights in the U.S. This is technically inconsistent with democracy as well as a true democracy does not give rights to minorities unless they are directly determined by the grace of the majority's vote. Had this always been the case in the U.S. many minorities would have suffered under segregation for likely much longer than they did and we would NEVER have transgender rights, etc, etc.

But that is the issue, where are the civil rights going to be for the poor rural whites who are not the majority? There won't be any and that is a problem that the founders foresaw.

The system was designed so that rural folks would not be oppressed by the urban folks and the "equal protection under law" was meant to protect minorities.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want democracy in order to crush rural peoples, then you'll have to sacrifice civil rights and other "non-democratic" notions as well.
User avatar
By maz
#14952484
This an older NY Times article from a few weeks ago.

NYT Admits That Its "Mountain of Evidence" For Russian Collusion Is Smaller Than A Molehill

The long piece is a repetition of unproven intelligence claims, spin around a few facts and lots of innuendo. Few readers will ever digest it in full.

That is why this sentence appears near the top in paragraph 5 of a total of 199 paragraphs:

President Trump’s Twitter outbursts that it is all a “hoax” and a “witch hunt,” in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, have taken a toll on public comprehension.

One-hundred-and-seventy-eight paragraphs later, near the end of the piece, we read the opposite and learn that Trump is indeed right:

"Mr. Trump’s frustration with the Russian investigation is not surprising. He is right that no public evidence has emerged showing that his campaign conspired with Russia in the election interference or accepted Russian money."


Image

The "mountain of evidence" claimed in paragraph 5 turns out to be "no public evidence" in paragraph 183 near the end of the piece. But 99% of the readers will not walk through the whole mess and the 1% that do will likely miss the contradiction.
User avatar
By jimjam
#14952634
blackjack21 wrote:So it sounds like you are resigning yourself to losing in November.


President Trump continues to be the least popular president this far into his presidency. With a net approval rating1 of -18 percentage points, Trump easily outpaces former President Gerald Ford, who previously held the record low (-9 points).

Trump’s net approval rating among his base of rural voters, according to Ipsos polling, has fallen from +17 percentage points to zero since the beginning of his presidency.

Trump’s approval rating has also dropped in every state since the beginning of his presidency, according to Morning Consult.
#14952688
Since Trump is guilty and there have been constant leaks against him, we can expect some juicy October Surprise leak from Mueller's investigation regarding all of Trump's Russian collusion, right? Or is there some reason I should not be expecting this?
User avatar
By jimjam
#14952711
Hong Wu wrote:Since Trump is guilty and there have been constant leaks against him, we can expect some juicy October Surprise leak from Mueller's investigation regarding all of Trump's Russian collusion, right? Or is there some reason I should not be expecting this?


You could very well be correct but ….. do not worry. The Republican Plutocratic Party will doubtlessly counter with a kneeling football player :lol: .
By Hindsite
#14952980
I don't know what your post has to do with Trump and Russia collusion. But I think BDS activists and Hamas are troublemakers in any peace agreement with Israel.
User avatar
By maz
#14953046
Did the Trump campaign collude with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election, or did they collude with Israel?

Trump Campaign Aide Requested Online Manipulation Plans From Israeli Intelligence Firm

WASHINGTON — A top Trump campaign official requested proposals in 2016 from an Israeli company to create fake online identities, to use social media manipulation and to gather intelligence to help defeat Republican primary race opponents and Hillary Clinton, according to interviews and copies of the proposals.

The Trump campaign’s interest in the work began as Russians were escalating their effort to aid Donald J. Trump. Though the Israeli company’s pitches were narrower than Moscow’s interference campaign and appear unconnected, the documents show that a senior Trump aide saw the promise of a disruption effort to swing voters in Mr. Trump’s favor.

The campaign official, Rick Gates, sought one proposal to use bogus personas to target and sway 5,000 delegates to the 2016 Republican National Convention by attacking Senator Ted Cruz of Texas, Mr. Trump’s main opponent at the time. Another proposal describes opposition research and “complementary intelligence activities” about Mrs. Clinton and people close to her, according to copies of the proposals obtained by The New York Times and interviews with four people involved in creating the documents.

A third proposal by the company, Psy-Group, which is staffed by former Israeli intelligence operatives, sketched out a monthslong plan to help Mr. Trump by using social media to help expose or amplify division among rival campaigns and factions. The proposals, part of what Psy-Group called “Project Rome,” used code names to identify the players — Mr. Trump was “Lion” and Mrs. Clinton was “Forest.” Mr. Cruz, who Trump campaign officials feared might lead a revolt over the Republican presidential nomination, was “Bear.”

There is no evidence that the Trump campaign acted on the proposals, and Mr. Gates ultimately was uninterested in Psy-Group’s work, a person with knowledge of the discussions said, in part because other campaign aides were developing a social media strategy. Psy-Group’s owner, Joel Zamel, did meet in August 2016 with Donald Trump Jr., Mr. Trump’s eldest son.

Investigators working for Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel investigating Russia’s campaign to disrupt the 2016 election and whether any Trump associates conspired, have obtained copies of the proposals and questioned Psy-Group employees, according to people familiar with those interviews.

The scope of the social media campaigns, essentially a broad effort to sow disinformation among Republican delegates and general election voters, was more extensive than the work typically done by campaign operatives to spread the candidate’s message on digital platforms. The proposal to gather information about Mrs. Clinton and her aides has elements of traditional opposition research, but it also contains cryptic language that suggests using clandestine means to build “intelligence dossiers.”
#14953246
maz wrote:Did the Trump campaign collude with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election, or did they collude with Israel?

Either way, "collusion" is not a crime. An American political campaign receiving financial emoluments from foreigners is illegal, I believe.
User avatar
By maz
#14953369
blackjack21 wrote:Either way, "collusion" is not a crime. An American political campaign receiving financial emoluments from foreigners is illegal, I believe.


It seems like they are just new tactics that probably everyone are using. In fact, the Obama campaign used similar social media manipulation tactics to get elected.

Funny, When Obama Harvested Facebook Data On Millions Of Users To Win In 2012, Everyone Cheered
User avatar
By Godstud
#14953376
:roll: Collusion is not a crime. Oh, FFS, we all know that, but everything around the collusion IS a crime. That is what they are investigating and if the investigation wasn't being successful, it would be over, by now.
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Poor is a comparable term. And it is measured by […]

:lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHtAzFNwjE[…]

No, I was talking about Gaza.

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/103297598683[…]