KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14929267
One Degree wrote:to dismiss the success of the KGB in changing the US is as absurd as dismissing the US success in instilling democratic and capitalists principles in Russia.

How did the KGB change the US?

SolarCross wrote:Trying to discredit the interviewee on the basis of the well meaning eccentricities of the interviewer, that's a new trick to me. What if the interviewer was as faultless as the saints in heaven? I guess then you'd have to go after the cameraman or the lady who made the tea.

Knowing about the interviewer helps explain why the interview was made, and so answer the OP question "Pro-American propaganda, warning, or combination of both?". I can't really see spending your life spreading bullshit as being "well-meaning", but you obviously think that faking news is "well-meaning".
#14929274
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:How did the KGB change the US?


Knowing about the interviewer helps explain why the interview was made, and so answer the OP question "Pro-American propaganda, warning, or combination of both?". I can't really see spending your life spreading bullshit as being "well-meaning", but you obviously think that faking news is "well-meaning".


The coincidence of the universal rise of Socialism, imo, is due to the human propensity for mindless mimickery plus clandestine operations. Obviously the degree of each will be debatable due to one being clandestine. The rise of labor unions and civil rights were backed by the Soviet Union to destabilize the US and instill Socialist ideology. There is no denying we are more Socialist. To say the KGB had nothing to do with this is to believe they sat out the ideological war. That is unlikely. The Democratic Platform promotes Socialism. The only reason not to give the Soviet Union credit for bringing this about is propaganda. It is not in the interest of the US or Russia to release full details on their success. We can only observe the results and the historical correlations. The USSR wanted the results that have happened. They were not as successful as they would have liked, but things have still progressed the way they wanted until now. Our dismissal of long term thinking as Bezmenov described is due to our own shortsighted view. What happened to our fear of ‘sleeper agents’ after our country became more socialized? Their success is the very basis for denying their success because we were changed.

Edit: I think modern Socialists like to separate themselves from Russian Communists due to our changed perception. We have accepted their ideology but refuse to be associated with a period when it was considered ‘evil’. Nothing but a fiction we prefer.
#14929281
Of course I can deny the USA is "more socialist" now. The Gini index, a simple measure of inequality, has risen from 0.362 in 1967 to 0.464 in 2016 ("Selected Measures of Equivalence-Adjusted Income Dispersion"). In that time, the top rate of income tax has declined from 70% to 39.6%. That is not a "rise of Socialism".

If you think civil rights are a bad thing, then there's no hope for you. That really does make this seem like a pointless attempt at discussion.
#14929285
Where did I say civil rights was a bad thing? You are exemplifying one of my points. You use a change in morality (ideology), that was encouraged by the USSR, to judge reality. “Socialism can not be bad for supporting civil rights therefore I deny the KGB supported civil rights movements because Russian socialism was bad but modern socialism is good therefore I refuse to admit any connection.” ?
You were changed, but don’t want to admit the change because you were changed.
Your figures do not refute the changes in our country following the depression, labor movement, and civil rights movement. And no, I don’t think Socialism is necessarily a bad thing. My comments were all observations, not value judgements.
It is a result of conflicting propaganda that people choose to believe the Soviet Union was impotent in the ideological war and did not change us. How do you explain widespread Socialism while denying any effects from the USSR?
#14929295
Socialism is not widespread. Especially in the USA. I pointed out how inequality has increased in the last 50 years - the period after Bezmenov defected.

If you actually think civil rights are a good idea after all, why do you think the USA, or the west in general, were incapable of improving them on their own? Why would it need a clandestine foreign effort? What is your evidence that the KGB changed American society?
#14929298
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:Socialism is not widespread. Especially in the USA. I pointed out how inequality has increased in the last 50 years - the period after Bezmenov defected.

If you actually think civil rights are a good idea after all, why do you think the USA, or the west in general, were incapable of improving them on their own? Why would it need a clandestine foreign effort? What is your evidence that the KGB changed American society?


Inequality has not increased. I reject your numbers based upon having lived as an adult for the last 50 years. You can create some numbers for income disparity but those dismiss the poor are much better off. We have national social programs that did not exist 50 years ago.
I never said we were incapable of improving on our own. I said the USSR utilized our efforts for their own purposes.
I have already given my evidence, the main one being it is totally irrational to believe the KGB sat idly by during our ideological war. Why would they pass up such opportunities? Do you believe they were totally incompetent?
#14929316
One Degree wrote:I have already given my evidence, the main one being it is totally irrational to believe the KGB sat idly by during our ideological war.

Your feelings about what would be or would not be irrational are not 'evidence'. You claimed that "the rise of labor unions and civil rights were backed by the Soviet Union to destabilize the US and instill Socialist ideology". Why do increased civil rights destabilize the US? Why do they "instill Socialist ideology"? Your linking of civil rights to the KGB doesn't even make sense, let alone have any evidence to back it up.

If you reject reality - government figures showing inequality has increased in the USA, not ones that I "created" - then your arguments are going to be useless. You don't seem to understand what evidence is, since you class your feelings as evidence, and reject authoritative statistics.
#14929322
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:Your feelings about what would be or would not be irrational are not 'evidence'. You claimed that "the rise of labor unions and civil rights were backed by the Soviet Union to destabilize the US and instill Socialist ideology". Why do increased civil rights destabilize the US? Why do they "instill Socialist ideology"? Your linking of civil rights to the KGB doesn't even make sense, let alone have any evidence to back it up.

If you reject reality - government figures showing inequality has increased in the USA, not ones that I "created" - then your arguments are going to be useless. You don't seem to understand what evidence is, since you class your feelings as evidence, and reject authoritative statistics.

Race riots were a destabilizing factor. A goal of the USSR. The demands of the Civil Rights movement were to be met through national socialized programs and laws. It was a rising of the lower class. As stated, these were clandestine operations but were barely a secret at the time. If I wasted my time producing the ‘government findings’ of the time, you would reject them for the same reason I reject yours. They are a product of their time and the only truth they reveal is currently accepted truth. Your arguments are disingenuous and I believe you know that.
What inequality has increased? I don’t seem to see houses with dirt floors like I did in the 60’s. Are minorities less likely to hold high positions? What exact inequality are you talking about? Your statistics are meaningless if not applied to real life scenarios.

Edit: when my reasoning shows your evidence is full of shit, then my ‘feelings’ become evidence.

Edit 2: Search ‘Civil Rights movement avowed Socialists’ and see the Civil Rights leaders names all pop up.

It just dawned on me the younger generations may not being told of the connection between Socialism and Civil Rights. If true, I apologize for not producing evidence of what I thought was common knowledge. It would make sense they would censor that part.
#14929349
Communists don't care about equality, that's just lying rhetoric. They want to destabilise, then take over then impose totalitarianism. Civil rights was just a way for them to exploit a weakness, race relations, in US social fabric. Lots of vile things can have seemingly fair sugar coating.

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More from Yuri Bezmenov
#14929468
Decky wrote:This needs moving to conspiracy theories.


It needs moving to wingnuttery, conspiracy theory is only a pejorative to bought in liberal trash and academic sell-outs.
#14929472
The thing is the guy has good understanding of how social fabric of society functions. Some things he says are true. It is for no reason the authorities freaked out in southern states after Nat Turner's slave rebellion and instituted that a white preacher be in presence every time there was a church service for the blacks. Among other things like restricting education for black slaves. Ideas are most powerful weapons.

Yet Bezmenov is not telling everything and I suspect purposely muddying what he is talking about. Hence most of the stuff he says is conspiracy, he is just trying to make a buck. What he is talking about has been happening in humanity since the dawn of organized civilized society. Hence there is more to Chinese and Japanese isolation, then just not wanting to trade with those pesky Europeans. Americans btw understand and pay this game way more effectively then any other country. America is the land of Hollywood, mass-advertisement, American dream and so on.

This type of understanding of society is actually what creates the biggest difference between ruling classes and the rest of lower classes. Communist take heed.
#14929513
One Degree wrote:Race riots were a destabilizing factor. A goal of the USSR.

Riots are destabilizing, but you have shown no evidence that the KGB were behind them. You have shown no evidence that the KGB affected ongoing American society.

The demands of the Civil Rights movement were to be met through national socialized programs and laws.

I have no idea where you've pulled this from. This sounds like "alternate history".

It was a rising of the lower class. As stated, these were clandestine operations but were barely a secret at the time.

Again, you seem to be confusing some novel you've read with history.

If I wasted my time producing the ‘government findings’ of the time, you would reject them for the same reason I reject yours. They are a product of their time and the only truth they reveal is currently accepted truth.

That sounds paranoid. The government findings that I quote are the statistics for American income. You seem to be saying you reject them because they are modern, and you won't accept anything that comes from our time. Go ahead, however, and produce some "government findings" that back up your contention that the KGB altered American society.

Your arguments are disingenuous and I believe you know that.

My arguments are quoting statistics about American income. No, that is not 'disingenuous'. If the USA has become more socialist, you'd expect to see inequality decreasing, not increasing.

What inequality has increased? I don’t seem to see houses with dirt floors like I did in the 60’s. Are minorities less likely to hold high positions? What exact inequality are you talking about? Your statistics are meaningless if not applied to real life scenarios.

I told you, the Gini index. If that's too complicated for you to understand, then from the same data table: in 1967, the richest quintile of the USA had 42.1% of the country's income, the poorest quintile 5.6% - a ratio of 9.3:1. In 2016, the figures were 50.2% and 3.5% - a ratio of 14.3:1. The rich are getting more and more of the income in the USA. That is the opposite of what socialism should cause.

Edit: when my reasoning shows your evidence is full of shit, then my ‘feelings’ become evidence.

No, that's not how logic works. If you say "inhaling hydrogen sulfide causes malaria", and I reply that the moon is made of green cheese, when you then show that the moon is made of rock, that still hasn't provided any evidence for your initial claim about malaria.

Edit 2: Search ‘Civil Rights movement avowed Socialists’ and see the Civil Rights leaders names all pop up.

Search engine results aren't evidence. What you've written here turns up in search engine results, but that doesn't turn it into 'evidence'. There were socialists in the civil rights movement. But that doesn't mean the KGB were influencing the movement, nor does it mean that increased civil rights means the country has turned more socialist. Martin Luther King was a baptist minister, but more civil rights didn't mean that the country became more Christian, or more baptist.
#14929546
MLK was a Socialist, by his own words, and as a side note a sexist. The Civil Right’s leaders were either Socialists and/or Black Muslims. This requires no citation as it was commonly known. As previously stated, if you want to believe the KGB sat on their hands then the ‘cold war’ must have not existed.

I knew what your figures were based on which is why I asked for specifics. The difference in the top 1% does not mean the rest did not become more equal, and money is not the only basis for equality.

Why is it important to you to ignore KGB operators in the Civil Rights Movement? Seems strange you needing to ignore the connections of Socialism to the USSR.
#14929630
@One Degree , you need to provide some evidence for KGB involvement and influence on American society. It matters literally to no one else in the world that you are personally convinced it must have happened. Socialism existed before the USSR; not all civil rights leaders were socialists or black Muslims (though why you bring black Muslims into this, I can't tell). For instance, John Lewis is neither. So far, there's no evidence of "KGB operators" for me to ignore. Provide some, and then we can evaluate it.

I didn't talk about the top 1%; you didn't ask for specifics, you dismissed the statistics as "a product of their time and the only truth they reveal is currently accepted truth".
#14929637
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:@One Degree , you need to provide some evidence for KGB involvement and influence on American society. It matters literally to no one else in the world that you are personally convinced it must have happened. Socialism existed before the USSR; not all civil rights leaders were socialists or black Muslims (though why you bring black Muslims into this, I can't tell). For instance, John Lewis is neither. So far, there's no evidence of "KGB operators" for me to ignore. Provide some, and then we can evaluate it.

I didn't talk about the top 1%; you didn't ask for specifics, you dismissed the statistics as "a product of their time and the only truth they reveal is currently accepted truth".


https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ce/542796/

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