Do we owe reparations to LGBT? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15013135
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, I do not care if you are convinced about anything.


I acknowledge that you don't possess the ability to offer a compelling argument...

If you can find a flaw in my reasoning, please present it. If not, keep up these replies and it will continue to look as if I am right and you have no argument.


A "flaw"?

It's stupid. Your reasoning is stupid and ignorant. That makes it wrong...
#15013141
Pants-of-dog wrote:We are discussing whether or not reparations are a good idea to redress the centuries of homophobia that LGBT+ people have traditionally dealt with.


LGBT isn't like a race of people where the trauma is passed on generationally, LGBT have no descendants we can make reparations to.
#15013170
Pants-of-dog wrote:
We are discussing whether or not reparations are a good idea to redress the centuries of homophobia that LGBT+ people have traditionally dealt with


No. They are not a good idea. There are a great many reasons. I could put my conservative hat on and simply answer that; the remedy of every problem is not necessarily to throw money at it.

I could put my logical hat on and simply reply that if we are to spend money on this problem then if we want a long term solution, the money should be spent changing minds.

Buying a gay person a Cadillac is not going to make his bigoted neighbor hate him less. Indeed it will probably make the bigot hate the gay more.

I could put my skeptic hat on and ask this question. "Where is the evidence that LGBTQTRSPPNR or whatever people are economically disadvantaged?" Some are of course but is there widespread poverty, caused by sexual orientation, that would be cured by an infusion of money? Not that I am aware. There is widespread poverty period and money certainly can cure it but one need make no sexual orientation distinction to look for it. There are lots of people who can claim they were denied a job because of bigotry or discrimination of one kind or another who went on to get a fine job and prosper. (Ask black people about this.)

Are conservatives more homophobic than liberals?

First of all I object to the use of the term -phobic. There was a time in my life when I opposed gay marriage. Many years ago. Fear had nothing to do with it. I have changed my mind. What caused me to do that was an examination of the facts, friendship and familiarity with many gay people, and the application of my Christian belief in the goodness of love in general. As a social liberal/fiscal conservative (conservative of the old order or, if you will, what a republican was 50 years ago) I simply realized that at the end of the day I had no dog in the fight. I concluded that my political beliefs demanded that I have a good reason to deprive someone of their liberties; pretty much no matter what liberty it is that they assert. And that, at the very least, to deprive someone of a particular liberty, we need a broad consensus, which, in the case of same sex marriage, did not appear to exist. I could see no parade of horribles which would occur should same sex people marry so I decided that the service of my belief in smaller, less intrusive government demanded that I support letting people do it. SO:

I know people who are quite left of center with regard to income distribution who oppose same sex marriage on religious grounds. I know fiscal conservatives who do the same thing. So though those who self identify as liberal are probably less likely to be resistant to making sexual orientation some sort of protected class this does not mean that a conservative is more likely to be a bigot.

But religion....

Yes. There are those who, drawing from a couple of fairly obscure versus in the Bible, decide that homosexuality is a sin and that it ought not be promoted or even allowed. I believe this is unfortunate but arguing with them on religious grounds is pointless. Attacking their religious beliefs in general is counterproductive. Decidedly so. It is unwise to do it. Nothing like insulting someone's deeply held beliefs to get them to come over to your side, right? So what to do about them...

There is a great healer. Perhaps the greatest healer known to medicine and every doctor applies this medicine quite frequently. The saying goes, "sometimes the best application of medicine is to do the most nothing possible for as long as necessary".

Among my generation racism and disdain for homosexuality is rife. Though most of us have learned to at least be quiet in private conversations you would be surprised at the number of times I have to either bite my tongue with my friends or check them by telling them that I do not permit racism in my home. But according to actuarial tables, my life expectancy is about 20 years or perhaps a bit less. If I get really lucky maybe 30. SO baring some medical breakthrough of earth shattering proportions, my generation and the not all that much better gen x ers are going to be gone in about 50 years and will have ever diminishing effect on society in the meantime. The beliefs of younger Americans, who are decidedly less bigoted WRT homosexuality will prevail and the problem will become on of isolated bigotry, which will never go away as stupid never goes away.

Finally. The republican party is in full defensive mode. In the service of corporatism it has lost its philosophical center. It is no longer the constitutionalist party, which it once most decidedly was. About the only personal right that it discusses these days is the second amendment and it refers to the free expression of the beliefs of others as "fake news". In an attempt to raise money and remain in power it has assembled a coalition of frightened people and attempted to frighten them more. The argument against gays is not framed as an argument against anything gay people do but rather as an assault by "liberals" on "traditional values" and "religion". This is working for them and will continue until the people they seek to recruit simply no longer hold these values. And that will take some time yet.

Anyway.

So that is why reparations are a bad idea. They do not apply the remedy for a single problem faced by gay people. (I am using this term in the service of brevity.) In fact, the studies show that not all gay people suffer wage gap at all. Lesbian women, for example, earn more than their straight counterparts. But that does not even matter. The very idea of transferring money to someone because they claim to hold a particular sexual orientation (and it is always a claim, not necessarily a fact) would cause such a backlash that the cause of gay folks would be damaged for a couple of generations. So the best thing to do is to educate people.

The riots.

Band idea. Hugely bad. Does damage to the image of LGBTQRSTMB...whatever....people in general. The way to change minds is not to jump on police cars in this case. The police do not represent the problem as they did in the issue of race. Disorderly conduct is not a good way to get orderly people to like you or accept you. The rioters were not only protesting a problem that hardly exists IMO but they were damaging their message. What many people concluded goes something like this..."These folks are trashing police cars so let's go hire some". Right.
#15013175
I meant this facetiously but it's been fascinating to see that some people have gone with it.

Can people in favor of reparations explain how it would work as applied to "sexually fluid" people who can decide if/when they are homosexual?
#15013200
BigSteve wrote:I acknowledge that you don't possess the ability to offer a compelling argument...

A "flaw"?

It's stupid. Your reasoning is stupid and ignorant. That makes it wrong...


There is absolutely no argument or intelligent criticism here.

——————————

Sivad wrote:LGBT isn't like a race of people where the trauma is passed on generationally, LGBT have no descendants we can make reparations to.


Actually, they do have descendants, but you are correct that they are not a race and trauma has not been passed generationally.

—————————

Hong Wu wrote:I meant this facetiously but it's been fascinating to see that some people have gone with it.

Can people in favor of reparations explain how it would work as applied to "sexually fluid" people who can decide if/when they are homosexual?


No one is in favour of reparations.

You should read the thread.
#15013204
OK yeah. My bad for just skimming the posts from POD and other similar posters, apparently they can keep a thread on reparations for LGTB going for pages without actually explicitly saying that they're in favor of it. Just lots of insults, incriminations, arrogant emoticons and zero substance. Can I really be blamed for not reading it closely?
Last edited by Hong Wu on 20 Jun 2019 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
#15013205
Hong Wu wrote:OK yeah. My bad for just skimming the posts from POD and other similar posters, apparently they can keep a thread on reparations for LGTB going for pages without actually explicitly saying that they're in favor of it. Just lots of insults, incriminations, arrogant emoticons and zero substance. Can I really be blamed for not reading it closely?


So you have no intelligent arguments or criticisms.

And your premise is based on a an idea that is not true: that people support reparations for LGBT+ people.

Instead of incorrectly assuming what my beliefs are, you could ask me.
#15013207
QatzelOk wrote:Why not? Current generations benefit from the sins of their grandparents (today's Americans live well off of stolen land that was genocided for them), so why shouldn't they pay for these sins as well?

It's the only way to stop them. Otherwise, the lesson learned is "to keep doing the same thing over and over, in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Venezuela" etc. First step is admitting you have a problem.


I'll need to think about this some more to better formulate an argument, but the below are the kinds of thoughts I'm having about this.

Unintended consequences, basically. I'd rather pay into socialized health care for all than this shit. Socialized healthcare for all would do more for Blacks and Gay than just giving them cash payouts...

I'll ignore the complicated logistics of figuring who gets compensated, and how much do they get compensated, and how to prevent fraud. This is whole other issue.

Ultimately, reparations would amount to a new tax. The effect of which is not too different from the negative effects tariffs on imports could have. The people that would face the largest burden is the educated middle professional classes. This is a strong voting block that would react negatively to getting punished for hating on gays/blacks, even if they don't hate them. Further, you will suck away money from other social services that help everyone.

Personally (with respect to slaver reparations), I would get punished even though I had nothing to do with slavery, in fact, some of my ancestors were slaves. However, they were not slaves in America, so I would not qualify for reparations, and I would be expected to pay into it? No thank you. I'd rather pay into socialized health care for all than this shit.

As I have no strong ties to the US. I would just take my skills and leave for a place that doesn't have this. Thus, i would reduce the tax revenue to pay for this. I think a lot of people would just pack up and go. It would destroy American, and leave the poorest (often minorities) with a broken country.

This is just a bad idea all around that serves to divide us rather than unite us.

Everyone benefits from the shitty things their governments do. Even small countries do horrible shit (see Dominican Republic and Haiti). It's just such an impractical, and it would cripple economies around the world.

Anyway, punishing people for being homophobic even though they are not homophobic is crazy.
Last edited by Rancid on 20 Jun 2019 21:36, edited 3 times in total.
#15013235
Godstud wrote::roll: What a fucking load of bullshit.

Please provide a source for this utterly baseless claim.

I thought even you would know that prisoners are segregated by gender. Homosexuals can and do have sex inside prisons. At my school showers were segregated on the basis of gender. Most of us adolescent heterosexual lads would have loved to share showers with the girls, meanwhile homosexual boys were free to ogle at the lads to their hearts content.
#15013259
Rich wrote:Cis heterosexual males have suffered massive discrimination, take the prison system just for starters. Through out the ages homosexuals have conspired with out rulers in oppressing the poor majority of heterosexual males.



Very few gay people realize that they can pay as little as 50 dollars to a for-profit prisons to have sexual relations with all the hetero men they want. That's why they're called "for profit."
#15013266
Rich wrote:Homosexuals can and do have sex inside prisons.
Most of the people who have sex in prisons are not homosexuals. Many also have actual mental disorders(another topic), which are why they are in prison, to begin with. You really don't know much about it, do you? You're really just grasping at straws.

Rich wrote:At my school showers were segregated on the basis of gender. Most of us adolescent heterosexual lads would have loved to share showers with the girls, meanwhile homosexual boys were free to ogle at the lads to their hearts content.
:roll: Your childish arguments are just that.
#15013390
Godstud wrote:Most of the people who have sex in prisons are not homosexuals. Many also have actual mental disorders(another topic), which are why they are in prison, to begin with. You really don't know much about it, do you?

You're an expert on sex in prisons too, eh? You really do get around, don't you!
#15013392
Rich wrote:
Cis heterosexual males have suffered massive discrimination, take the prison system just for starters. Through out the ages homosexuals have conspired with our rulers in oppressing the poor majority of heterosexual males.


best Rich post ever :lol:
#15013393
Blackjack21 wrote:You're an expert on sex in prisons too, eh? You really do get around, don't you!
All you do is make comments from a position of ignorance based on fanciful notions that most people who are in prison are homosexuals. Do you have something to support this, or are you just talking out of your ass?
#15013447
Pants-of-dog wrote:There is absolutely no argument or intelligent criticism here.


Don't whine to me about it. If you don't like being told that your reasoning is stupid and ignorant, maybe you should put a bit more effort into it so it's not stupid and ignorant...
#15013453
QatzelOk wrote:Why not? Current generations benefit from the sins of their grandparents (today's Americans live well off of stolen land that was genocided for them), so why shouldn't they pay for these sins as well?


If my grandparents sinned, then those sins are theirs, not mine. Consequently, the responsibility to make amends for those sins would lie with them, not me.

Treating someone in the LGBTQLMNOP community poorly, simply because they're in the that community, is no more offensive than expecting someone who didn't treat them poorly to pay for being treated poorly...
#15013455
BigSteve wrote:Don't whine to me about it. If you don't like being told that your reasoning is stupid and ignorant, maybe you should put a bit more effort into it so it's not stupid and ignorant...


This post of yours is also completely without argument or intelligent criticism.

If you think anything I said was stupid, please show how.
#15013518
Godstud wrote:All you do is make comments from a position of ignorance based on fanciful notions that most people who are in prison are homosexuals.

I never said any such thing. You must have me mistaken for somebody else. Maybe rich. I just found it interesting that you are apparently an expert on sex and mental health in prisons.
#15013521
@blackjack21 It might have also been Rich, but you made the response to me, so I responded, in kind.

Blackjack21 wrote:I just found it interesting that you are apparently an expert on sex and mental health in prisons.
I read. You might try it, sometime. Prisons are full of people with mental health issues, and assuming that most inmates are homosexual, is quite the claim, without evidence.

That said, why don't you prove me wrong, by using a source, instead of simply spouting unintelligent bullshit, or whataboutisms?
#15013743
BigSteve wrote:If my grandparents sinned, then those sins are theirs, not mine.

If this is true, and perhaps it is, then the land that they genocided was theirs, and not yours is also true.

That's how your divorce from your family inheritance works.
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