Is the Deep State Coup Theory actually true? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15041444
The Deep State Coup by anonymous members of the spook wing of the Deep State is a real thing, according to Matt Taibbi.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/were-in-a-permanent-coup

The kickoff begins when a key official decides to buck the executive. From that moment, government becomes a high-speed head-counting exercise. Who’s got the power plant, the airport, the police in the capital? How many department chiefs are answering their phones? Who’s writing tonight’s newscast?

When the KGB in 1991 tried to reassume control of the crumbling Soviet Union by placing Mikhail Gorbachev under arrest and attempting to seize Moscow, logistics ruled. Boris Yeltsin’s crew drove to the Russian White House in ordinary cars, beating KGB coup plotters who were trying to reach the seat of Russian government in armored vehicles. A key moment came when one of Yeltsin’s men, Alexander Rutskoi – who two years later would himself lead a coup against Yeltsin – prevailed upon a Major in a tank unit to defy KGB orders and turn on the “criminals.”

We have long been spared this madness in America. Our head-counting ceremony was Election Day. We did it once every four years.

That’s all over, in the Trump era.


Okay, so far so good. Most leftists would agree with this. But then Matt goes off the reservation completely:

the people pushing hardest for Trump’s early removal are more dangerous than Trump. Many Americans don’t see this because they’re not used to waking up in a country where you’re not sure who the president will be by nightfall. They don’t understand that this predicament is worse than having a bad president.

The Trump presidency is the first to reveal a full-blown schism between the intelligence community and the White House. Senior figures in the CIA, NSA, FBI and other agencies made an open break from their would-be boss before Trump’s inauguration, commencing a public war of leaks that has not stopped...

...The leak of the January, 2017 “meeting” between the four chiefs and Trump – which without question damaged both the presidency and America’s standing abroad – was an unprecedented act of insubordination.

It was also a bold new foray into domestic politics by intelligence agencies that in recent decades began asserting all sorts of frightening new authority. They were kidnapping foreigners, assassinating by drone, conducting paramilitary operations without congressional notice, building an international archipelago of secret prisons, and engaging in mass warrantless surveillance of Americans. We found out in a court case just last week how extensive the illegal domestic surveillance has been, with the FBI engaging in tens of thousands of warrantless searches involving American emails and phone numbers under the guise of combating foreign subversion.

The agencies’ new trick is inserting themselves into domestic politics using leaks and media pressure. The “intel chiefs” meeting was just the first in a series of similar stories, many following the pattern in which a document was created, passed from department from department, and leaked.


Two things can be true at the same time, as the saying goes.

Thing Number One: Trump is systematically abusing his authority as president for personal monetary gain and political advantage.

Thing Number Two: The Deep State exists, and it's using Trump's numerous misdeeds to stage a stealth takeover of the levers of power.

Non-conservatives are not sufficiently cognizant of Thing Number Two. If Bernie Sanders won the Presidency (to take a long-shot example) the same Deep State would be sabotage his efforts to downsize the military budget and withdraw troops from numerous theaters. CNN punditry is now a rogue's gallery of CIA spooks and Defense Dept intel.

I framed this as "non-conservatives" because this is a particular fault of liberal groupthink. I don't use the word left, because CNN/MSM/Deep State are not "left" in any recognizable or meaningful sense of the word.
#15041448
quetzalcoatl wrote:


Is the Deep State Coup Theory actually true?



No.

Right wing extremists like to complain about fake news. Problem is, most of it comes from them.

What ordinary people say, instead of Deep State, is the permanent government. Does lack pizazz..

The institutions that make up the government do have agendas, but they tend toward the banal. Pentagon wants more money, etc.

I do love that the Right wing fiction machine lusts for impropriety to talk about. Suddenly they have a ton of it, and they are trying to cover it up. Ahh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive.

Anyway, the Founding Fathers set up a system of checks and balances. When wrongdoing is investigated, that is the system seeking to check the imbalance. That is what is supposed to happen.

You know, so Trump can't become dictator.
#15041468
Surveillance and prisons and assassination abroad were approved by the president and/or congress. That's not the definition of a deep state.

If the deep state were real and wanted to prevent a Trump presidency, all it had to do was to make up some charges against Trump and have the right judges in the right places, preferably during the primaries. The way it's done in Russia all the time.
#15041490
The Deep State doesn't exist in the sense of a group of powerful men conspiring against Trump behind closed doors. It does exist in the sense that numerous Americans, who realize that Trump is profoundly damaging US interests, are prepared to act against him.

Trump believes in the conspiracy of the deep state. That's why he runs his own investigations with the help of his private attorney instead of relying on the organs of state.
#15041581
quetzalcoatl wrote:The Deep State Coup by anonymous members of the spook wing of the Deep State is a real thing, according to Matt Taibbi.


It's a real thing according to anyone who doesn't have their head all the way up their own ass.
#15041662
quetzalcoatl wrote:Thing Number One: Trump is systematically abusing his authority as president for personal monetary gain and political advantage.

That thing number one is clearly not true. President Trump has yet to receive any monetary gains from any abuse of his office and instead has lost money and even donates his presidential salary to government agencies. And it is not clear how anything he has done is an abuse of power that provides him political advantage, since political polls have him trailing the majority of the Democrat candidates for President and the most recent poll has 51% say they believe he should even be impeached. That has been a result of the Democrat leadership in Congress abusing their power.

Rugoz wrote:Is that supposed to be an argument? You people simply fail to explain how the deep state could be so utterly powerless and inept.

The Deep State caught the Trump Derangement Syndrome that has reduced them to idiots.
#15041667
Rugoz wrote:If the deep state were real and wanted to prevent a Trump presidency, all it had to do was to make up some charges against Trump and have the right judges in the right places, preferably during the primaries. The way it's done in Russia all the time.

That presumes that they took him seriously initially. They didn't. The deep state was trying to rig the election to be one of Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton. That way the neocons/neolibs would win either way. When it became clear that Trump might win, that's when they started up the Russiagate stuff financed by Hillary Clinton and shepherded through the corridors of power by fellow travelers. Keep in mind, even John McCain was part of circulating the dossier. The media rigged all the polls, as they normally do. The thing is that the American populace is hip to the media psyops now, and Trump has been the only president to take them to task head on.

Atlantis wrote:It does exist in the sense that numerous Americans, who realize that Trump is profoundly damaging US interests, are prepared to act against him.

US interests, or their interests?

Atlantis wrote:Trump believes in the conspiracy of the deep state. That's why he runs his own investigations with the help of his private attorney instead of relying on the organs of state.

There's nothing wrong with doing that under the US constitution either, as all executive authority is vested in the POTUS.

Rugoz wrote:You people simply fail to explain how the deep state could be so utterly powerless and inept.

The deep state can exist and also be inept. The Cold War is over, so Hillary's "Russia" fears didn't work on older voters and younger voters couldn't find Russia on a map even though it's the largest country in the world. They tried the "grab 'em by the pussy" tapes, and the public didn't care. That left the deep state dumbfounded. They've since tried "Stormy Daniels" and the public just doesn't care. Donald Trump is a known quantity. The media doesn't get to shape the perception of someone everybody already knows.

Hindsite wrote:President Trump has yet to receive any monetary gains from any abuse of his office and instead has lost money and even donates his presidential salary to government agencies.

Yeah. They're really grasping at straws, because Biden is failing and they have nobody else. We've already heard Nancy Pelosi say that if Trump wins again, the damage he's doing will not be undone. What damage? Basically, the neolib/neocon cabal's hold on power. However, that spans countries too. Brexit has the UK in a similar "constitutional crisis," which also isn't a constitutional crisis, but rather a crisis for the neolib/neocon Janus getting shown the door by the electorate.

Hindsite wrote:And it is not clear how anything he has done is an abuse of power that provides him political advantage, since political polls have him trailing the majority of the Democrat candidates for President and the most recent poll has 51% say they believe he should even be impeached.

That's where I think "inept" can get substantiated, because there is a lot of inconsistency in running phony push polls to try to shape public opinion and then floating another theory that contradicts their push polling. They're even trying to get Drudge and FoxNews into the mix, but again the public straight up doesn't care. They like Trump. They'd probably vote for him again even if he was impeached.

Hindsite wrote:That has been a result of the Democrat leadership in Congress abusing their power.

Yes, but the only reason the Republicans aren't abusing power is that they have the White House and Trump is doing a lot of things they like, such as his court nominations. That's what I think has the establishment in a dead panic, because things like abortion and gay marriage clearly are not in the 14th Amendment, nor free speech for corporations for that matter.

Hindsite wrote:The Deep State caught the Trump Derangement Syndrome that has reduced them to idiots.

Well, I think they were idiots before Trump got into power. I think they just lie so frequently that they lose track of what they've said and the inconsistencies just don't make sense and people have come to ignore them.
#15041675
blackjack21 wrote:
1) They didn't. The deep state was trying to rig the election to be one of Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton.


2) US interests, or their interests?


3) There's nothing wrong with doing that under the US constitution either, as all executive authority is vested in the POTUS.


4) They tried the "grab 'em by the pussy" tapes, and the public didn't care.


5) They're really grasping at straws


6) ...but again the public straight up doesn't care. They like Trump. They'd probably vote for him again even if he was impeached.


7) Well, I think they were idiots before Trump got into power. I think they just lie so frequently that they lose track of what they've said and the inconsistencies just don't make sense and people have come to ignore them.



1) If there was a deep state, Jeb or Hillary would be president. Deep State is fiction by crazies for crazies.

2) Both.

3) There is plenty wrong with that. Unless he's a dictator, which is what you're actually getting at.

4) Minutes after that Access Hollywood tape went public, Russia blew it off page one with Wikileaks.

5) Constitutional scholars pointed out that Trump was in violation of the Emolument Clause from day one. He didn't divest his businesses, and now foreigners use his hotels to curry favor. A Saudi once booked an entire floor for an extended period, and no one used the rooms. He has the military spending money in Ireland, when they could stay almost for free at our bases in Europe. That's just a partial list.

6) You are talking about the base, what has been interesting is the decline in support from moderate Republicans in recent months.

70 Shrinks call that projection, Trump has lied thousands of times.
#15041689
late wrote:1) If there was a deep state, Jeb or Hillary would be president. Deep State is fiction by crazies for crazies.

2) Both.

3) There is plenty wrong with that. Unless he's a dictator, which is what you're actually getting at.

4) Minutes after that Access Hollywood tape went public, Russia blew it off page one with Wikileaks.

5) Constitutional scholars pointed out that Trump was in violation of the Emolument Clause from day one. He didn't divest his businesses, and now foreigners use his hotels to curry favor. A Saudi once booked an entire floor for an extended period, and no one used the rooms. He has the military spending money in Ireland, when they could stay almost for free at our bases in Europe. That's just a partial list.

6) You are talking about the base, what has been interesting is the decline in support from moderate Republicans in recent months.

70 Shrinks call that projection, Trump has lied thousands of times.

You have really been brainwashed by the left-wing democrats and their propaganda media lies. I don't know of anything I could say that could save you from Trump hatred and the dreaded Trump Derangement Syndrome.
#15041707
Hindsite wrote:You have really been brainwashed by the left-wing democrats and their propaganda media lies.

late doesn't strike me as brainwashed, but rather as an activist whether paid or not. Since Trump won, the establishment has been trying to figure out how to undermine support for Trump among his base. During election season, you'll notice a lot more participation in these types of forums and then they drop off as election season passes.

late wrote:1) If there was a deep state, Jeb or Hillary would be president. Deep State is fiction by crazies for crazies.

The deep state does not have to be infallible in order to exist.

late wrote:2) Both.

I would say that they are prosecuting their own interests.

late wrote:3) There is plenty wrong with that. Unless he's a dictator, which is what you're actually getting at.

Article II, Section 1, Sentence 1 wrote:The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

Article II, Section 3 wrote:he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed

That would include the corruption of his political adversaries to the extent they can be remedied by law.

late wrote:4) Minutes after that Access Hollywood tape went public, Russia blew it off page one with Wikileaks.

Russia controls our press now too? There were entire "pussy hat" riots after he was elected. The story was well known. It has not been proven that Russia hacked the DNC server. After all, the founder of Crowdstrike is an anti-Russian Ukrainian.

late wrote:5) Constitutional scholars pointed out that Trump was in violation of the Emolument Clause from day one. He didn't divest his businesses, and now foreigners use his hotels to curry favor. A Saudi once booked an entire floor for an extended period, and no one used the rooms. He has the military spending money in Ireland, when they could stay almost for free at our bases in Europe. That's just a partial list.

That does not violate the emoluments clause. Many presidents have maintained their businesses while in office.

Article 2, Section 1 wrote:The President shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that period any other emolument from the United States, or any of them.

Article 1, Section 9 wrote:No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.


late wrote:6) You are talking about the base, what has been interesting is the decline in support from moderate Republicans in recent months.

It's not that interesting. If the Democrats hadn't gone so far to the left, they might have had a chance in 2020.

late wrote:70 Shrinks call that projection, Trump has lied thousands of times.

If you want to undermine someone's credibility, you need to focus on relevant issues. Trump is a braggart, and he does so with a bit of tongue-in-cheek as it riles his adversaries. His supporters find this funny, not dishonest.
#15041715
Hindsite wrote:
You have really been brainwashed by the left-wing democrats and their propaganda media lies. I don't know of anything I could say that could save you from Trump hatred and the dreaded Trump Derangement Syndrome.



Project much or what.
#15041717
blackjack21 wrote:The deep state does not have to be infallible in order to exist.


Yeah, that's the classic babbitt straw man. There's a ton of serious scholarship and journalism on the deep state and not one of the many scholars or journalists that have spent their careers studying and investigating it have ever claimed that the deep state is an all powerful monolith. :knife:
#15041718
blackjack21 wrote:


If you want to undermine someone's credibility, you need to focus on relevant issues. Trump is a braggart, and he does so with a bit of tongue-in-cheek as it riles his adversaries. His supporters find this funny, not dishonest.



Naw, you love it.

You don't wind up in the fever swamp of the Far Right by accident.

You guys keep repeating the same crap. You never offer substantive rebut because you genuinely don't know what you are doing.
#15041721
Sivad wrote:
Yeah, that's the classic babbitt straw man. There's a ton of serious scholarship and journalism on the deep state and not one of the many scholars or journalists that have spent their careers studying and investigating it have ever claimed that the deep state is an all powerful monolith. :knife:



Best not to use their language..

There is a permanent government, and the varied institutions have their own agendas. While there are alliances (like the one between the Ag Dept and Pentagon), their priorities conflict more often than they coincide.

If you want to dig deeper, research the Ag Dept. This should not be the case, but it's one of the most powerful agencies. It has a lot of influence in foreign affairs, politics and inside the beltway intrigue.

It's also complicated, I got a number of headaches figuring it out.
#15041733
Red_Army wrote:Look at what it finally took for Nancy Pelosi to decide to impeach Trump. Obviously there are vested interests that aren't elected and don't change with presidential elections. Is that someone people were confused about?

However, Donald Trump came along as the Trump of God and got elected President and changed all that. Now with Nancy Pelosi's hope of a Biden president going down, I believe her anger is causing her to act irrationally.

late wrote:You guys keep repeating the same crap. You never offer substantive rebut because you genuinely don't know what you are doing.

I believe the same of you.
#15041734
late wrote:You don't wind up in the fever swamp of the Far Right by accident.

I'm not on the far right at all. If I take the political compass quiz, I end up right down the middle axis with one tick to the libertarian side of things. I don't agree with the Democratic party. The DNCs inclination to try to define everyone that disagrees with them as extremist doesn't mean that is so. Trump is more an old school Democrat, which is why he won so many working class voters. Far Right is more like this:



This will get someone like @SpecialOlympian very upset. Far right people are more inclined to violence, not shit posting on phpBBs. However, as Tim Pool points out, right wing violence is extreme but also very rare. Whereas, Antifa violence is common and usually not as serious as killing someone.
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