illegal to be muscular in Sweden/Belgium - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15045392
As part of the war on "toxic masculinity"...

Basically, 70 cops raided a dozen gym facilities and arrested 40 or so people who they deemed "too muscular" and charged them with suspicion of steroid use.

excerpt from the article:
" You have to constantly ask whether muscle growth is reasonable. As a parent or boyfriend or girlfriend might not be so naive. Are you in your 20s and weighs 90 kg in muscle, you should put off "​

original article in Swedish:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130226122 ... id=8324938


Well it's only natural that if they look too muscular they must be using steroids.

No, what this really is is an attack on masculine men. The society is complaining that it's their fault because they shouldn't have been so muscular in the first place.



For instance, what the hell is going on in Sweden? If you haven’t heard the story of IFBB Pro Bodybuilder Toney Freeman being arrested in Sweden, then be prepared for some shocking revelations. Apparently Swedish police have free reign to profile individuals based on their physical appearance and arrest them on suspicion of being on steroids. That just doesn’t sound right.

Maybe it’s because of the influence on American culture that it seems pretty damn unjust to profile individuals just based purely on their physical attributes alone. There’s tons of guys who are all natural bodybuilders who refrain from taking supplements and have freaky size and definition. Does that mean that every man that fits the bill should automatically be profiled and arrested? America may not be killing it where the war on drugs is concerned, but the idea that a person can be put in jail based purely on their looks alone is a pretty damn scary thought to take under consideration (Then again, with the recent Ferguson tragedy that has hit the US – we’re not shining examples either. But we’re not going to touch that one).

Toney Freeman turned Toney “jailed-man” when he visited Sweden back in 2010. He was targeted by Swedish police no doubt because of his status as a professional bodybuilder and was picked up by police while making a promotional appearance at a local store. If his case wasn’t enough, there’s the case of Joras Tornros. Tornros was said to be enjoying a peaceful dinner when his waitress became alarmed by his massive size, particularly his large forearms.

Police were called, an undercover officer dispatched and laid in wait at the restroom until he could make his move. When Tornros went to use the bathroom, the undercover cop somehow managed to get a urine sample, return to the station to test its content which showed a slightly above average testosterone content. Based on that the police arrested Tornros! Now not to sound like a bleeding heart, but that’s pretty harsh and pretty damn drastic just to bust someone with a slightly above average testosterone level. Who wants to wake up in a jail cell just because you’re lifting some heavy weight?
There’s no doubt that Sweden’s police are trying to deal with a sensitive situation in steroids, but what are you sacrificing when you condone this kind of profiling? Much the same as racial profiling, muscle profiling is a ridiculous notion.

https://generationiron.com/swedish-witch-hunt/


A recent report comes out of Belgium. Boris, a young dietician in his late 20’s working in the medical insurance field decided to enter his first bodybuilding contest. He placed a respectable 5th out of 9, but as the show drew to a close he was selected by the officials as one of 10 out of 70 competitors to submit to urine testing. He was told to urinate in a cup and fill out paperwork. A month later, he was advised in a letter from the Department of “Culture, Youth, Sports and Media” that he tested positive for steroids and two ancillary drugs, and that his testosterone ratio was elevated.

In Belgium, steroid doping crimes are pursued both by government anti-doping authorities and by the police. The anti-doping authorities typically tip off the police, who launch their own separate investigation. Shortly after receiving the letter regarding his urine results, Boris received a call from his father. Three policemen had shown up at the door of their home with a warrant and had begun searching his room. The warrant alleged there was cause to search for steroids, other drugs and “narcotics” – all based only on the urine test results. They even seized his computer and external hard drive.

Boris told me, “I have in my whole life never hurt a living soul, always been helpful towards others, often stupid enough to help others when I should have been more selfish for my own good. I’m a hard working man and all my colleagues and bosses are very happy with my work and would fight not to lose me from their team. … Yet that day, when I had to pee in that cup, all of that changed, and I was all of a sudden a criminal, a very, very bad man in need of some serious punishing….”

Boris was commanded to appear at an investigational hearing before the anti-doping disciplinary commission. For two and a half hours, he was questioned on every aspect of his life, his training, his diet, and all aspects of his use of sports-related drugs. He was also fingerprinted and his mug shots were taken.

The following month, he received a letter in the mail. While the criminal investigation was not resolved, the decision of the anti-doping disciplinary commission was a heavy fine of 3,350 euros and … a four-year ban on setting foot in a gym. Yes, not just a ban on bodybuilding competition, but a prohibition against working out at all in any gym! Sounds crazy? Of course it does, given that exercise is universally regarded as a healthful human activity with tremendous physical and psychological benefits. The punishment is idiotic. But there’s one more part of the equation that’s even crazier: the doping authorities claim jurisdiction over each and every gym member in the country, not just the ones that compete! That means that they have the right to raid any gym, accompanied by police agents, and force anyone they choose to pee in a cup. Anyone who fails is treated as a cheating athlete, may be charged by both doping officials and the police, and is forbidden from entering a gym. And the raids have already begun, with the police searching locker rooms, gym bags and vehicles of the members!

https://www.steroidlaw.com/2013/02/musc ... s-belgium/
#15045757
For those who have asked in the past "Why be concerned at all if you have nothing to hide?", consider this:
What if there had been an error in the test results of those pee samples? Errors in these kinds of tests are a lot more common than people think. It's even possible two of the urine samples might have gotten accidentally switched around at the test lab.
#15045791
If steroids are illegal, then enforcing the drug laws has nothing to do with the OP's statement.

Many bans come along with conditions where you don't associate in the places you once did, so a man being convicted and being banned from gyms is in keeping with that. He's not banned from getting weights and working out, however.
#15045855
Puffer Fish wrote: I’m a hard working man and all my colleagues and bosses are very happy with my work and would fight not to lose me from their team. … Yet that day, when I had to pee in that cup, all of that changed, and I was all of a sudden a criminal, a very, very bad man in need of some serious punishing….”


That guy cheated in the body building competition and he knew that taking steroids was against the law.
That he committed no other offences is not a defence.
I don't see the point of the OP. The guy cheated and got caught. Full stop.
#15046726
Godstud wrote:Many bans come along with conditions where you don't associate in the places you once did, so a man being convicted and being banned from gyms is in keeping with that. He's not banned from getting weights and working out, however.

I think that's taking it too far, way too far. We're not talking about drugs that have messed up someone's life here, or association with criminal gangs.

If you don't see how those sanctions are excessively totalitarian, then maybe you've been conditioned to just accept these type of things as normal.

Ter wrote:That guy cheated in the body building competition and he knew that taking steroids was against the law.
That he committed no other offences is not a defence.
I don't see the point of the OP.

If he cheated in the competition, then the evidence of cheating should have warranted sanctions from the organization running the competition. That should not be a legal matter.

These tests are not always accurate. When the only evidence is pee in a cup, it's very questionable whether that rises to the level justifying legal action from government.
#15046730
Puffer Fish wrote:I think that's taking it too far, way too far. We're not talking about drugs that have messed up someone's life here, or association with criminal gangs.


In the US heavy steroid use is prevalent among LEOs. So much so that Police Unions have campaigned against steroid drug tests. It is a contributing factor to the hyper-irritability of police and their tendency to immediately escalate.
#15046735
Political Interest wrote:They are worried about steroid usage when there are far bigger problems in both countries.

Is the West just getting more and more insane?

It seems they think they can micromanage everyone's lives into a Utopia.

That the solution to any problem is to pass another law.

Until all of society is like living in one big gigantic prison. The Prisoner ( 1968 TV series) was really ahead of its time in its allegory.
#15046738
Puffer Fish wrote:It seems they think they can micromanage everyone's lives into a Utopia.

That the solution to any problem is to pass another law.

Until all of society is like living in one big gigantic prison. The Prisoner ( 1968 TV series) was really ahead of its time in its allegory.


It's not really the police control but the ideology and crazy ideas that the state and police hold in these types of countries.

I am all in favour of strong police and a strong state but they have to be staffed by normal, sane and good people.
#15046754
Puffer Fish wrote:As part of the war on "toxic masculinity"...

Basically, 70 cops raided a dozen gym facilities and arrested 40 or so people who they deemed "too muscular" and charged them with suspicion of steroid use.

excerpt from the article:
" You have to constantly ask whether muscle growth is reasonable. As a parent or boyfriend or girlfriend might not be so naive. Are you in your 20s and weighs 90 kg in muscle, you should put off "​

original article in Swedish:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130226122 ... id=8324938


Well it's only natural that if they look too muscular they must be using steroids.

No, what this really is is an attack on masculine men. The society is complaining that it's their fault because they shouldn't have been so muscular in the first place.



For instance, what the hell is going on in Sweden? If you haven’t heard the story of IFBB Pro Bodybuilder Toney Freeman being arrested in Sweden, then be prepared for some shocking revelations. Apparently Swedish police have free reign to profile individuals based on their physical appearance and arrest them on suspicion of being on steroids. That just doesn’t sound right.

Maybe it’s because of the influence on American culture that it seems pretty damn unjust to profile individuals just based purely on their physical attributes alone. There’s tons of guys who are all natural bodybuilders who refrain from taking supplements and have freaky size and definition. Does that mean that every man that fits the bill should automatically be profiled and arrested? America may not be killing it where the war on drugs is concerned, but the idea that a person can be put in jail based purely on their looks alone is a pretty damn scary thought to take under consideration (Then again, with the recent Ferguson tragedy that has hit the US – we’re not shining examples either. But we’re not going to touch that one).

Toney Freeman turned Toney “jailed-man” when he visited Sweden back in 2010. He was targeted by Swedish police no doubt because of his status as a professional bodybuilder and was picked up by police while making a promotional appearance at a local store. If his case wasn’t enough, there’s the case of Joras Tornros. Tornros was said to be enjoying a peaceful dinner when his waitress became alarmed by his massive size, particularly his large forearms.

Police were called, an undercover officer dispatched and laid in wait at the restroom until he could make his move. When Tornros went to use the bathroom, the undercover cop somehow managed to get a urine sample, return to the station to test its content which showed a slightly above average testosterone content. Based on that the police arrested Tornros! Now not to sound like a bleeding heart, but that’s pretty harsh and pretty damn drastic just to bust someone with a slightly above average testosterone level. Who wants to wake up in a jail cell just because you’re lifting some heavy weight?
There’s no doubt that Sweden’s police are trying to deal with a sensitive situation in steroids, but what are you sacrificing when you condone this kind of profiling? Much the same as racial profiling, muscle profiling is a ridiculous notion.

https://generationiron.com/swedish-witch-hunt/


A recent report comes out of Belgium. Boris, a young dietician in his late 20’s working in the medical insurance field decided to enter his first bodybuilding contest. He placed a respectable 5th out of 9, but as the show drew to a close he was selected by the officials as one of 10 out of 70 competitors to submit to urine testing. He was told to urinate in a cup and fill out paperwork. A month later, he was advised in a letter from the Department of “Culture, Youth, Sports and Media” that he tested positive for steroids and two ancillary drugs, and that his testosterone ratio was elevated.

In Belgium, steroid doping crimes are pursued both by government anti-doping authorities and by the police. The anti-doping authorities typically tip off the police, who launch their own separate investigation. Shortly after receiving the letter regarding his urine results, Boris received a call from his father. Three policemen had shown up at the door of their home with a warrant and had begun searching his room. The warrant alleged there was cause to search for steroids, other drugs and “narcotics” – all based only on the urine test results. They even seized his computer and external hard drive.

Boris told me, “I have in my whole life never hurt a living soul, always been helpful towards others, often stupid enough to help others when I should have been more selfish for my own good. I’m a hard working man and all my colleagues and bosses are very happy with my work and would fight not to lose me from their team. … Yet that day, when I had to pee in that cup, all of that changed, and I was all of a sudden a criminal, a very, very bad man in need of some serious punishing….”

Boris was commanded to appear at an investigational hearing before the anti-doping disciplinary commission. For two and a half hours, he was questioned on every aspect of his life, his training, his diet, and all aspects of his use of sports-related drugs. He was also fingerprinted and his mug shots were taken.

The following month, he received a letter in the mail. While the criminal investigation was not resolved, the decision of the anti-doping disciplinary commission was a heavy fine of 3,350 euros and … a four-year ban on setting foot in a gym. Yes, not just a ban on bodybuilding competition, but a prohibition against working out at all in any gym! Sounds crazy? Of course it does, given that exercise is universally regarded as a healthful human activity with tremendous physical and psychological benefits. The punishment is idiotic. But there’s one more part of the equation that’s even crazier: the doping authorities claim jurisdiction over each and every gym member in the country, not just the ones that compete! That means that they have the right to raid any gym, accompanied by police agents, and force anyone they choose to pee in a cup. Anyone who fails is treated as a cheating athlete, may be charged by both doping officials and the police, and is forbidden from entering a gym. And the raids have already begun, with the police searching locker rooms, gym bags and vehicles of the members!

https://www.steroidlaw.com/2013/02/musc ... s-belgium/


I mean the guy cheated and got caught. What did he expect? In some countries, INCLUDING THE US SINCE LIKE 2 MONTHS, doping is not only illegal but also a criminal offence that sends you straight to jail. European countries have similar laws on top of some drugs being outright banned. We should make doping a criminal offence all across Europe so anybody caught doping goes straight to jail.
#15046784
JohnRawls wrote:I mean the guy cheated and got caught. What did he expect? In some countries, INCLUDING THE US SINCE LIKE 2 MONTHS, doping is not only illegal but also a criminal offence that sends you straight to jail. European countries have similar laws on top of some drugs being outright banned. We should make doping a criminal offence all across Europe so anybody caught doping goes straight to jail.

Steroids should only be taken if prescribed for medical reasons. They can be dangerous otherwise.
#15046787
Hindsite wrote:Steroids should only be taken if prescribed for medical reasons. They can be dangerous otherwise.


Its not just about steroid but doping in general. People compete for tens of millions in sports nowadays per competition. In some places for several hundreds of millions per competition. (European football for example) Doping is basically a way to cheat those competitions. When there is so much money on the line then there should be severe punishments for cheating the systems. Because otherwise it might kill the sport and many lives that participate in it.
#15046788
I think anyone who's found to have used any banned substance should be banned from competitive sports for life. It's not like they don't know it's forbidden.

I often wonder why an athlete gets a "suspension" for violating the policy. For instance, last year, Terrance Williams of the Dallas Cowboys received a three game suspension for violating the league's substance abuse policy.

A suspension? Fuck that. Dude, you're out of a fuckin' job. Clean out your locker before lunch and good luck to you...
#15046799
Puffer Fish wrote:If you don't see how those sanctions are excessively totalitarian, then maybe you've been conditioned to just accept these type of things as normal.
If you don't want these limitations, then you don't commit the crime. It's not totalitarian, as it doesn't apply to everyone, and it's limited to people convicted of these crimes. Convicted criminals being limited in their actions and behavior is absolutely normal.

Hindsite wrote:Steroids should only be taken if prescribed for medical reasons. They can be dangerous otherwise.
Just to clarify, and inform... Steroids taken for medical reasons are different. Steroids are used as the main treatment for certain inflammatory conditions, such as systemic vasculitis (inflammation of blood vessels) and myositis (inflammation of muscle). They may also be used selectively to treat inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Sjögren's syndrome, or gout. - Corticosteroids.

Anabolic steroids are the ones used for tissue and muscle growth.
#15046955
Godstud wrote:If you don't want these limitations, then you don't commit the crime. It's not totalitarian, as it doesn't apply to everyone, and it's limited to people convicted of these crimes. Convicted criminals being limited in their actions and behavior is absolutely normal.

That's ignorant talk and will lead to a slippery slope.
All sorts of things are crimes now and the list keeps growing every year. Therefore the legal action and enforcement really needs to be in proportion to what the crime actually is.
You bring up the fact that these people are "convicted" as a safeguard, that's not good enough. We know that most of these cases never go to trial and the defendants are very very commonly pushed into plea bargains. These people can easily end up being convicted based on nothing more than "pee in a cup". That's not even counting how long it takes for cases to go to trial, before conviction, and all the legal sanctions that can be imposed before then.

I think your rationale shows profound ignorance over how the legal system actually works.
In reality it's more likely to work like this: Police somehow obtain a sample of urine, a test shows slightly elevated levels of testosterone, which is suspicious but doesn't absolutely prove anything with complete certainty. The suspect is discriminated against because of his large muscular size. The "That couldn't be natural" mentality. The man is arrested, charges brought against him, the man potentially faces years in prison. Meanwhile, even if he wants a trial he will be banned from going to the gym for 16 months anyway, under court-imposed orders, because it takes a long time for all the preparations for a trial to get underway. So he just takes the plea bargain from the prosecutor and pleads guilty. Maybe only serves 4 months in prison and a year of probation. The fact that he was convicted here doesn't really in any way mean he was certainly guilty.

We're talking about basing everything on a test here, a test that may not always be reliable.

In a country like the US, the police would at least need some reasonable grounds for a search warrant to help prevent innocent people being arrested based on tests carried out that come back with a false positive result.
#15046962
If this helps you understand, maybe think of it this way:

Do you have a big hobby or activity in your life that you like doing? Something that's very important to you that you often do every day?

Now imagine if police forced you to submit to a test - a test that has a high false positive rate.

You may not have done anything wrong, but the test wrongly comes back positive. You are now banned from doing your favorite activity and charges are brought against you.

Do you see how discrimination against "very muscular" people could be an issue?
Is it that you're unable to see a problem with that because you're not one of these very muscular people?
I think a very very similar analogy can be drawn here to alleged racial profiling in the US.
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