How do we overcome what can’t be changed? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15050243
What does a human being do when there is nothing to be done? A misfortune has occurred, the situation cannot be put right, it is hopeless, the whole of life is bereft of meaning, it seems as though nothing and no one can be of any help... But time passes, and we see the same person cheerful once again and full of hopes. How has he managed to emerge from the crisis, to pass from grief to happiness?

Vasilyuk, who was mainly concerned with psychother- apy, noted that some situations require a type of work other than practical or cognitive work. Macduff, for example, when faced with the murder of his family, engages in cognitive work to understand what happened and reaches his conclusion: “What, all my pretty chickens and their dam/At one fell swoop?” This cognitive work, however, is of course useless to solve his situation. Then Malcolm suggests that he undertake a practical activity, that is, that he kill the tyrant Macbeth: “Dispute it like a man.” Macduff accepts (“I shall do so”), but he knows that this will also be useless to fix his situation, as no practical activity can bring his family back. His situation requires him to undertake another type of work: “But I also must feel it as a man.” This work, which Macduff calls “feeling it as a man,” is what Vasilyuk (1984/1988) called perezhivanie.

- http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Vygotsky-Vasilyuk_Perezhivanie.pdf

When faced with situations of immense loss and challenge to our life projects? What is the means which allows a person to cope if not come through the experience reasonably alright. Are all such things a trauma which we merely manage to persist through life having experienced, just extra baggage?
#15052809
Stop modelling it as a problem, it is this that seems to set in motion the almost irresistible path of working towards a (final) solution, which is an urge on our part that we would do well to reflect upon. I first started regarding this as a 'modelling' problem after reading John Michael Greer's essay Problems and Predicaments.
To regard it as a predicament is to reframe things so we hopefully don't get too hung up on 'overcoming' things, which can lead us down an obsessive path.

I know that a predicament is still a type of problem, but this approach stimulates our creativity a bit more as well as getting us to consider our place in the scale of things.
#15053179
In the Tantric approach to Kali, the goal of the devotee is to be reconciled with death and to learn acceptance of the way things are.

In The Counselor, a 2013 Ridley Scott film about a drug dealer’s attorney (Michael Fassbinder) whose first attempt at a drug deal goes horribly wrong, the counselor asks an acquaintance what he can do to fix the situation. He is advised, “You are now at the crossing. And you want to choose, but there is no choosing there. There's only accepting. The choosing was done a long time ago.”
#15053617
The human psychology is adaptable. The human psychology is fixated to the environment. That is an evolutionary characteristic.

The universe is a destined existence where everything is fixated. Psychologically "Overcoming" what cannot be changed is a psychological characteristic of a transition of a previous phase to the next phase. Having the previous phase's psychology while existing into the next phase will result in a psychological desire of "Overcoming."

Humans want what is around them. Humans do not choose what they want. Humans' physical nature chooses what they want. Humans want to eat because they need to eat to survive. Humans want to have air so they do not suffocate. Humans want water so they do not get dehydrated.
#15053644
SSDR wrote:The human psychology is adaptable. The human psychology is fixated to the environment. That is an evolutionary characteristic.

The universe is a destined existence where everything is fixated. Psychologically "Overcoming" what cannot be changed is a psychological characteristic of a transition of a previous phase to the next phase. Having the previous phase's psychology while existing into the next phase will result in a psychological desire of "Overcoming."

Humans want what is around them. Humans do not choose what they want. Humans' physical nature chooses what they want. Humans want to eat because they need to eat to survive. Humans want to have air so they do not suffocate. Humans want water so they do not get dehydrated.

Except that humans aren't reducible to biological instincts as such base drives undergo sociocultural changes, the same general desire takes on a specific social form and means.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm
Of course, thirst must be satisfied. But will the normal person in normal circumstances lie down in the gutter and drink out of a puddle, or out of a glass with a rim greasy from many lips? But the social aspect is most important of all.


Lev Vygotsky is an example on the differentiation between the biological base which is general to mankind universally, but also the sociocultural development which changes and develops qualitatively new qualities in man on that biological base. He for example emphasizes self-mastery through signs, the development of the intellect in combination with language.
http://www.unilibre.edu.co/bogota/pdfs/2016/mc16.pdf
When comparing the principles regulating unconditioned and conditioned reflexes, Pavlov uses the example of a telephone call. One possibility is for the call to connect two points directly via a special line. This corresponds to an unconditioned reflex. The other possibility is for the phone call to be relayed through a special, central station with the help of temporary and limitlessly variable connections. This corresponds to a conditioned reflex. The cerebral cortex, as the organ that closes the conditioned reflex circuit, plays the role of such a central station.

The fundamental message of our analysis of the processes that underlie the creation of signs (signalization) may be expressed by a more generalized form of the same metaphor. Let us take the case of tying a knot as a reminder or drawing lots as a means of decision making. There is no doubt that in both cases a temporary conditioned connection is formed, that is, a connection of Pavlov’s second type. But if we wish to grasp the essentials of what is happening here, we are forced to take into consideration not only the function of the telephone mechanism but also of the operator who plugged in and thus connected the line. In our example, the connection was established by the person who tied the knot. This feature distinguishes the higher forms of behavior from the lower.

Man actively creates the reflexes which then becomes a compulsion for his activity, we aren't merely our immediately biologically given instincts but conditioned reflexes, many of which we actively construct based on our training/development with our caregivers through childhood.

Though the overcoming I'm concerned with isn't say the distance between one's needs and self ie I feel hunger so I then go eat. Rather it's of an emotional character but integral to one's personality overall.
As the example in the OP of MacDuff, it isn't something that can be worked through in one's activity as no change in the world objectively changes the problem although one's actions might play a role in the emotional aspect, just as thinking about something over and over may have little bearing on solving it as it's not a cognitive problem, it has no rational solution as problem-solving another task.


And to the previous posters, I don't know to what extent I find answers satisfactory. The point of accepting things is, of course, an important guide, learning to accept what is can be the source of great frustration, but when the problem is denial itself, saying acceptance is the answer doesn't necessarily provide a guide to overcoming the need for the denial.
This would not be the answer I give the mother who digs up her dead infant to hold and pretend isn't dead. She, of course, needs to accept the reality but even once accepting this as fact, it may not still be essentially overcome or resolved.
And I don't think the thing I'm talking about is something that can be dismissed as simply not a problem. The issues many people come to a psychologist/counselor or whatever which aren't a simple matter that need a bit of encouragement or practical advice any decent friend might provide are things which are difficult to ignore. Difficult because they clearly interfere in the person's well being, many may go on living but in terms of living a quality life unburdened by such an experience which tends to have some pathological effect in their personality, it requires some intervention and collaboration between the person in someone else in many cases.
The person who has no problem from a terrible experience has no need for therapy.

One can, of course, function well enough in going to work, raising a family and still be fucked up from the suicide of a family member. They may not ever work through and get over it exactly, to be at peace with it and die with such an issue. But if they were to pursue some means, what would the process entail? Or what is even entailed in the person that it doesn't arise as a pathological matter.
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