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By Hindsite
#15050405
Joe Biden’s Family Has Been Cashing in on His Career for Decades. Democrats Need to Acknowledge That.

The problem for Democrats is that a review of Hunter Biden’s career shows clearly that he, along with Joe Biden’s brother James, has been trading on their family name for decades, cashing in on the implication — and sometimes the explicit argument — that giving money to a member of Joe Biden’s family wins the favor of Joe Biden.

Hunter Biden "didn't know anything about the industry he was in, he didn't have any discernible duties, and he's getting paid over $50,000 a month. And then he gets a billion five from China. WTF.

IN 2006, BEAU Biden, who died of cancer in 2015, was roped into an investment meeting led by James and Hunter Biden, at the firm Paradigm Global Advisors. The family was considering acquiring the firm, and James Biden told executives there he’d have no problem bringing in people looking for an in with Joe Biden, who was a U.S. senator at the time. “We’ve got people all around the world who want to invest in Joe Biden,” James Biden told officials with the firm, according to a Politico Magazine investigation.

Beau Biden turned red in the face, telling his uncle, “This can never leave this room, and if you ever say it again, I will have nothing to do with this.” Hunter and James Biden denied the account to Politico, but the magazine stood by it, citing multiple sources with similar recollections. “We’ve got investors lined up in a line of 747s filled with cash ready to invest in this company,” a Paradigm executive recalls James Biden saying.

In 2014, the stepson of former Secretary of State John Kerry, Chris Heinz, gave Hunter a similar warning. The pair were partners in an investment firm, Rosemont Seneca, when Hunter Biden and a third partner, Devon Archer, were invited to join the board of the Ukrainian natural gas firm Burisma Holdings.

Heinz, through a spokesperson, told the Washington Post that he strongly objected to Hunter Biden and Archer taking the board seats. “Mr. Heinz strongly warned Mr. Archer that working with Burisma was unacceptable. Mr. Archer stated that he and Hunter Biden intended to pursue the opportunity as individuals, not as part of the firm,” the Post reported. “The lack of judgment in this matter was a major catalyst for Mr. Heinz ending his business relationships with Mr. Archer and Mr. Biden.”

Obama administration officials, too, were concerned. Amos Hochstein, the special envoy for energy policy, raised the question with Biden, the New Yorker reported.

In April 2014, Hunter went ahead and accepted the invitation to join the board, along with a fee of at least $50,000 per month.

Beau Biden and Chris Heinz both recognized what was plainly before their eyes: Cashing in on the Biden family name was wrong. Now, Democratic voters are faced with the same quandary. They can see the corruption in front of their eyes, and they have to decide whether that’s the argument they want to have with Trump in 2020 — or whether they want to nominate someone else who will allow the party to make the corruption argument cleanly.

Hunter told the New Yorker he and his dad had a tacit understanding that they would never talk business. The Biden campaign claimed to the magazine that the two never spoke about his work in Ukraine, though Hunter says they did talk about it. “Dad said, ‘I hope you know what you are doing,’ and I said, ‘I do,’” Hunter told the New Yorker.

IN TRADING ON his father’s name and power to advance his career, Hunter Biden was following in the footsteps of James Biden, Joe’s younger brother. It began small. In 1973, one year after Joe Biden was elected to the Senate at age 29, James Biden opened the nightclub Seasons Change with what Politico, referencing contemporaneous local reporting in Delaware, called “unusually generous bank loans.” When James ran into trouble, Joe, as a senator, later complained that the bank shouldn’t have loaned James the money. “What I’d like to know,” Biden told the News Journal in 1977, “is how the guy in charge of loans let it get this far.” The paper investigated, and sources at the bank said that the loan was made because James was Joe’s brother.

James, in the ’90s, founded Lion Hall Group, which lobbied for Mississippi trial lawyers involved in tobacco litigation. According to Curtis Wilkie’s book “The Fall of the House of Zeus,” the trial lawyers wanted James Biden’s help pushing Joe Biden on tobacco legislation.

That same decade, in 1996, Hunter Biden got in the game. Fresh out of law school, with thousands of options before him, he chose to go work for MBNA, then a dominant issuer of credit cards, while also serving as Biden’s deputy campaign manager. MBNA was one of the most powerful corporations in Delaware, a state with no shortage of major companies thanks to its lax tax and regulatory approach, and has since been absorbed by Bank of America. Biden in the 1990s was known half-jokingly as the senator from MBNA, though he didn’t find it funny. “I’m not the senator from MBNA,” he said in 1999.

He was, however, MBNA’s greatest champion in the Senate. Throughout the 1990s, bankruptcies were on the rise, and MBNA began pushing hard to reform the law to make it harder for people to discharge debt. The controversy brought Elizabeth Warren into politics; a well-known bankruptcy law professor, she was appointed to a commission to review the law, which began her decadeslong clash with Biden.

In 2001, Hunter Biden transitioned full-time to a federal lobbyist, though he stayed on the payroll of MBNA as a consultant until 2005, when President George W. Bush signed Biden’s Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act into law. It was a savage piece of legislation, and Joe Biden even worked to block an amendment that would have offered bankruptcy protection to people with medical debt. The bill also blocked people from discharging private student loan debt under bankruptcy. Total student loan debt was under $400 billion in 2005; it surged in the wake of the law’s passage and is now over $1.5 trillion.

Hunter Biden’s transparent cashing-in on his name was becoming a political liability for his father, so Joe Biden pushed him to find non-lobbying work, Anthony Lotito, a New York financial adviser, said in a complaint he filed in a New York state court.

That Joe Biden saw Hunter’s work as politically damaging enough to him in 2005 demonstrates that he was entirely aware of the appearance it gave of corruption. His solution was to help Hunter and James into their positions at Paradigm Global Advisors. It was there that James told company officials that clients looking to “invest in Joe Biden” would come knocking, as Politico Magazine reported.

n 2007, James Biden teamed up again with some of the tobacco lawyers from the previous decade, planning to launch a lobbying firm that Hunter would also be involved in. Again, the affair became a political problem for Biden, thanks to a sordid moment in which James Biden’s two prospective partners were caught on an FBI wiretap saying, “We really need to push on the Senate bill,” and “We’re going to meet with the Bidens around noon,” apparently in reference to legislation to compensate black farmers for discrimination. The firm never came to fruition because one of the Bidens’ potential partners was arrested.

That year, Biden launched his second failed presidential bid, but he wound up on the ticket with Barack Obama, serving the next eight years as vice president. Hunter’s relationship with MBNA became a political problem again. A 2008 New York Times story, headlined, “Obama Aides Defend Bank’s Pay to Biden Son,” reads like deja vu: ”Obama aides said he had never lobbied for MBNA and that there was nothing improper about the payments,” which were reported to be $100,000 per year. News that the University of Delaware had paid Biden’s firm millions, and gotten many millions more in earmarks, also caused the vice presidential nominee trouble.

In the meantime, Paradigm Global Advisors fared poorly and shut down in 2010. James quickly found new work, joining a construction firm in November 2010. In June 2011, while Joe Biden was overseeing Iraq policy, the firm won a $1.5 billion contract building homes in Iraq.

The company’s founder, Irvin Richter, told Fox Business Network that having James on board helped. “Listen, his name helps him get in the door, but it doesn’t help him get business,” he said. “People who have important names tend to get in the door easier but it doesn’t mean success. If he had the name Obama, he would get in the door easier.”

Hunter, meanwhile, went into business with Heinz, forming the firm Rosemont Seneca, along with partners Devon Archer and Eric Schwerin. In 2012, Archer and Hunter Biden connected with Jonathan Li, who ran a Chinese private equity fund, Bohai Capital, and began talks about working together. They did a large real estate deal together in 2013 and began setting up a joint fund. In late 2013, Hunter Biden traveled with his father on official business to China, where he introduced the vice president to his partner, Li.

The new firm, Bohai Harvest RST, as The Intercept reported earlier this year, would go on to invest in facial-recognition technology used to surveil China’s Muslim population as part of its ongoing cultural genocide operation. The firm, according to the Wall Street Journal, planned to raise $1.5 billion in capital. Trump and his attorney Rudy Giuliani have since contorted that reality into the notion that China simply handed Hunter Biden $1.5 billion. “I wonder where the hell that money is, man, because I’ve got to pay tuitions,” Biden has since responded. “God bless me!”

And then there’s Ukraine. In February 2014, Hunter Biden, less than a year after enlisting in the Navy, was discharged for testing positive for cocaine. But a new opportunity was about to present itself: That same month, protesters in Maidan Square overthrew the government of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine, sparked by the government’s unwillingness to sign an association agreement with the European Union.

The new government leaned heavily toward the West and away from Russia, and a jockeying for wealth and power shook the ruling class. Remnants of the old regime became targets, and one of those was Burisma Holdings, owned by Mykola Zlochevsky, an oligarch and former government official tied to Yanukovych. Regulators in London had seized more than $20 million in cash from the firm amid claims by rivals that it had compiled its assets illegally. Zlochevsky needed Western bona fides, and he needed them fast, so Hunter Biden was brought on board.

The New Yorker article details Hunter Biden’s struggles with drugs and alcohol, which included run-ins with the law and stints in rehab. One particularly out-of-control bender, which involved a crack pipe found in a rental car, took place while Biden was making $50,000 a month serving on the board of Burisma. In 2014, he was gracing the front page of the company’s website, according to web archives.

Hunter Biden’s very presence on the board of the company itself corrupted the process, creating the appearance that the Americans were hypocritical about their talk of corruption and self-dealing. At the time, here’s how Daria Kaleniuk, head of Ukraine’s Anti-Corruption Action Center, put it to the Wall Street Journal: “If an investigator sees the son of the vice president of the United States is part of the management of a company … that investigator will be uncomfortable pushing the case forward.”

That, of course, is simply obvious, and it is the entire reason Hunter Biden was paid so handsomely to do nothing but sell his name to the company. That’s corruption.
By late
#15050438
The Ukraine conspiracy theory is a russian disinformation op. Congress had been briefed on this by our Intel guys. IOW, the Republicans in the impeachment hearing knew what they were selling was crap.

That's why they shut up. If Joe Six Pack ever figures out these guys are Putin's pawns, their political career is over.

So let's get back to reality, even if it is just for a moment. Foreigners are always trying to buy influence. This is a constant, you could easily dig up a thousand examples. But it's legal. I would prefer if we tightened up the rules, and ended the revolving door. But you will need Washington to be controlled by Progressives to have that happen.

I like to say Biden is the corporate wing of the party. That's a small exaggeration, there are plenty of others in the corporate wing. But he is one of the leaders of that pack, that's how he wound up being vice president. That was Obama signalling he wasn't a threat to corporations. Biden's state is very cozy with big business, and his career has been largely about that.

So sure, there is corruption. But it's the same sort of corruption that dominates the Republican party even more than the Dems.

That's why they see Progressives as a threat. And by they, I mean the leadership of both parties. Actually governing the country would piss off a lot of big business, they can't see beyond their wallets.

And it's why, if you actually gave a rats ass about corruption, you'd vote Progressive.

But the reality is you like the corruption.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15050447
late wrote:The Ukraine conspiracy theory is a russian disinformation op. Congress had been briefed on this by our Intel guys. IOW, the Republicans in the impeachment hearing knew what they were selling was crap.

That's why they shut up. If Joe Six Pack ever figures out these guys are Putin's pawns, their political career is over.

So let's get back to reality, even if it is just for a moment. Foreigners are always trying to buy influence. This is a constant, you could easily dig up a thousand examples. But it's legal. I would prefer if we tightened up the rules, and ended the revolving door. But you will need Washington to be controlled by Progressives to have that happen.

I like to say Biden is the corporate wing of the party. That's a small exaggeration, there are plenty of others in the corporate wing. But he is one of the leaders of that pack, that's how he wound up being vice president. That was Obama signalling he wasn't a threat to corporations. Biden's state is very cozy with big business, and his career has been largely about that.

So sure, there is corruption. But it's the same sort of corruption that dominates the Republican party even more than the Dems.

That's why they see Progressives as a threat. And by they, I mean the leadership of both parties. Actually governing the country would piss off a lot of big business, they can't see beyond their wallets.

And it's why, if you actually gave a rats ass about corruption, you'd vote Progressive.

But the reality is you like the corruption.


I agree.

Biden's corruption is the baseline level of corruption that exists in both parties. That's not to say we should accept it and be ok with it, but basically Republicans pushing this Binden stuff is the kettle calling the pot black. All of these fuckers need to be looked it. I say go ahead and investigate Binden, but be sure to investigate fucking everyone. They're all slime balls, republican or democrat. FIRE EM ALL! Install me as dictator!
User avatar
By Patrickov
#15050448
Rancid wrote:FIRE EM ALL! Install me as dictator!


I am afraid My Honourable Friend is not entertaining enough. I would rather support another Honourable Gentleman who frequently reminds us to "Praise the Lord".
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15050451
late wrote:The Ukraine conspiracy theory is a russian disinformation op

Gaslighting isn't going to work. Joe Biden was video recorded bragging about getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired in a clear quid pro quo. The prosecutor has testified he was investigating Burisma. There are baking records with money being paid from Burisma to Hunter Biden, etc. All the elements of jurisdiction are there. Trying to use the levers of state to whitewash it isn't going to work. Trying to impeach Trump isn't going to work either.

late wrote:Congress had been briefed on this by our Intel guys.

Intel guys are not criminal investigators. They are hardly trustworthy.

late wrote:IOW, the Republicans in the impeachment hearing knew what they were selling was crap.

Katie Hill tried doing a bit of gaslighting herself, and now doesn't look like quite the expert anymore.

late wrote:That's why they shut up.

Who shut up?

late wrote:If Joe Six Pack ever figures out these guys are Putin's pawns, their political career is over.

What makes you think your imaginary "Joe Six Pack" hates Putin and loves Biden?

late wrote:If Joe Six Pack ever figures out these guys are Putin's pawns, their political career is over.

Indeed. In this case, they evidently succeeded. Devon Archer and Hunter Biden were able to get top-level meetings at the State Department for Burisma.

late wrote:But it's legal.

So was donating to the Clinton Foundation. It's still legal for now. In my annual ethics training, last year they covered donating to a politician's charity. This year they covered hiring a politician's family member. However, violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is not legal. That's what is in question here.

late wrote:So sure, there is corruption. But it's the same sort of corruption that dominates the Republican party even more than the Dems.

So you think we should be okay with that? We voted for Trump over Jeb Bush...

late wrote:That's why they see Progressives as a threat.

Progressives bailed out the banks--helping billionaires, and giving rich people their $500k bonuses--at taxpayer's expense.

late wrote:you'd vote Progressive.

Yeah, but the history of Eugenics, mandatory sterilization, racial segregation, and so forth leaves a lot of people feeling that the Progressives are forever tainted, kind of like the Nazis.

Rancid wrote:That's not to say we should accept it and be ok with it, but basically Republicans pushing this Binden stuff is the kettle calling the pot black.

Yes, but this is the sort of political paybacks we want--not manufactured conspiracy theories. Hating Trump is understandable. Trying to impeach him on whackadoo theories is not.
By late
#15050453
blackjack21 wrote:
Gaslighting isn't going to work. Joe Biden was video recorded bragging about getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired in a clear quid pro quo. The prosecutor has testified he was investigating Burisma. There are baking records with money being paid from Burisma to Hunter Biden, etc. All the elements of jurisdiction are there. Trying to use the levers of state to whitewash it isn't going to work. Trying to impeach Trump isn't going to work either.





Repeating stupid doesn't make it better. The reality is that the West was putting pressure on Ukraine to clean it's act up, and had been for months before Biden showed up.

If your theory wasn't so laughable (and clearly Russian in origin) Biden would have been acting to increase corruption, not decrease it. If there was something improper, cleaning up Ukraine would increase the possibility of getting Hunter in trouble.

Lastly, we have a bunch of people pointing out the obvious. What Trump was doing was corrupt, and the Biden thing was both a convenient distraction, and an attempt to smear who he expected to be his challenger in the election. Which is a nightmarish betrayal of the country, and what is left of our democracy.

Trump got suckered by Putin, and you're following along behind him.
By Hindsite
#15050488
late wrote:Repeating stupid doesn't make it better. The reality is that the West was putting pressure on Ukraine to clean it's act up, and had been for months before Biden showed up.

Joe Biden showed up and made the corruption worse.

late wrote:If your theory wasn't so laughable (and clearly Russian in origin) Biden would have been acting to increase corruption, not decrease it. If there was something improper, cleaning up Ukraine would increase the possibility of getting Hunter in trouble.

The Russians did not make Hunter Biden take payoffs from that Ukrainian company or make Joe Biden withhold aid money until Ukrainian fired the prosecutor that was investigating that company from which his son was receiving those payoffs. Joe Biden was certainly not attempting to decrease corruption when it came to his son's corrupt payoffs.

late wrote:Lastly, we have a bunch of people pointing out the obvious. What Trump was doing was corrupt, and the Biden thing was both a convenient distraction, and an attempt to smear who he expected to be his challenger in the election. Which is a nightmarish betrayal of the country, and what is left of our democracy.

President Trump was asking the new Ukrainian President to investigate corruption in Ukraine, like interference in the 2016 U.S. election and Joe Biden's conflict of interest with his son Hunter Biden on the board of a Ukrainian natural gas company. The Democrats in Congress don't want that corruption investigated.
By late
#15050490
Hindsite wrote:
1) Joe Biden showed up and made the corruption worse.


2) until Ukrainian fired the prosecutor that was investigating that company


3) President Trump was asking the new Ukrainian President to investigate corruption in Ukraine



1) Lying won't help. America, the EU and the IMF had all been trying to get rid of the guy. Which I've told you before, yet still you lie.

2) "Shokin wrote the affidavit in support of Ukrainian oligarch Dmytro Firtash.[30] John Herbst, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine during the George W. Bush administration, said that Shokin's support of Firtash, who had been arrested for bribery in 2014, undercuts Shokin's claims to be motivated by transparency.[31][32] "Firtash is arguably the most odious, or one of the most odious oligarchs in Ukraine," according to Herbst.[31]

Shokin claimed in May 2019 that he had been investigating Burisma Holdings.[13][33][34] However, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016 citing corruption in the office, provided documents to Bloomberg News indicating that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.[35][36] Also, the investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company.[37]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Sh ... den_family

3) Trump demanded corruption, or all aid would be cut off. Create a phony investigation, or watch your country burn.
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15050492
late wrote:Repeating stupid doesn't make it better.

The video makes it clear that Biden withheld funds until a prosecutor--who was investigating Burisma--was fired. Biden gave Poroshenko six hours to fire Shokin. Biden bragged about it.

late wrote:The reality is that the West was putting pressure on Ukraine to clean it's act up, and had been for months before Biden showed up.

"The West" meddling in the internal affairs of another country doesn't make Biden's actions appropriate. As it stands, the timeline clearly shows that Viktor Yanukovych--the democratically-elected leader of Ukraine--was forced out of office; then, George Soros and the US Department of State set up the Anti Corruption Action Center. Why the US government needs help from George Soros in a country where he never resided is anyone's guess. Then Devon Archer and Christopher Heinz (son of John Heinz, step son of John Kerry) are named to board of directors for Burisma. Devon Archer met with Joe Biden at the White House one week before Biden met with the Ukraine's prime minister. Biden urges Ukraine to increase natural gas production to free itself from Russian imports. Then Joe Biden meets with candidate Poroshenko. Four days later, the UK's Serious Fraud Offices freezes $23M in Burisma assets. Two weeks later Hunter Biden is named to the board of Burisma. Heinz (think ketchup) decides to part ways with Biden and Archer. A week later John Kerry's former chief of staff is hired to lobby for Burisma. Poroshenko wins the following week. About 5 weeks later, Biden's law firm gets $250k as a retainer. The following month Viktor Shokin cries foul, and opens an investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma (keep in mind, it was the UK that froze assets first). Five months later, the UK shuts down its investigation for lack of evidence. Three months later, George Soros announces an intention to invest $1B in natural gas exploration in Ukraine. Burisma makes $22k donation to a Delaware community foundation in the name of Beau Biden. US ambassador to Ukraine implores prosecutors to bring Zlochevsky to justice. Biden starts making demands of Poroshenko on corruption. The next day, the New York Times publishes an article that Shokin is investigating Zlochevsky and Burisma. Shokin seizes more of Zlochevksy's assets. Lobbyists for Burisma leverage Biden's name with the State Department as a reason to get rid of corruption allegations against Burisma.

You can read the timeline yourself. It's very clear that the US government wanted Ukraine to loosen its natural gas ties to Russia, Soros was in on it, and the Biden's tried to capitalize on it.

late wrote:If your theory wasn't so laughable (and clearly Russian in origin) Biden would have been acting to increase corruption, not decrease it.

Biden could decrease corruption and still line the pockets of his family. A violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act isn't made contingent upon what Biden would be doing. It's based on what he actually did.

late wrote:If there was something improper, cleaning up Ukraine would increase the possibility of getting Hunter in trouble.

That possibility is increasing either way.

late wrote:What Trump was doing was corrupt, and the Biden thing was both a convenient distraction, and an attempt to smear who he expected to be his challenger in the election.

Investigating a potential violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is not corruption. Giuliani began looking into it well before Biden even announced he was running.

late wrote:Which is a nightmarish betrayal of the country, and what is left of our democracy.

Rubbish. Democracy does not depend on Joe Biden or Donald Trump.

late wrote:Trump got suckered by Putin, and you're following along behind him.

Ok Boomer. Whatever you and George Soros say. :roll: What matters in deciding a case of a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is whether a foreign public official performed an official duty in exchange for something of value for him/herself or someone with ties to him/her. If Vladimir Putin identifies the crime, it's still a crime.

The Ukraine scandal timeline Democrats and their media allies don’t want America to see
By late
#15050493
blackjack21 wrote:
blah, blah, blah



The post I wrote immediately above yours is more than adequate.

It's funny. It keeps looking like Trump will get away with it, and things keep popping up. Yesterday was American Oversight publishing the results of it's first FOIA request.

They said more is coming. Which should eventually reach the thousandth time a lie has been refuted this year.

Let's face the ugly, you don't believe that crap, neither does anyone else.
By Hindsite
#15050504
late wrote: Lying won't help. America, the EU and the IMF had all been trying to get rid of the guy. Which I've told you before, yet still you lie.

I am not lying, I am just calling out lies from the Democrats, like the lying "shifty" Adam Schiff.

late wrote:Trump demanded corruption, or all aid would be cut off. Create a phony investigation, or watch your country burn.

Trump did not demand anything, he just asked for a favor. You are sounding like the lying "shifty" Adam Schiff and it was LTC Vindman who lied when he said it was a demand or order. It also looks like he lied when he claimed he did not know the identity of the whistleblower, when records show he had worked several years on Ukraine matters with Eric Ciaramella of the CIA, who is obviously the other intelligence community person he admits to have informed his concerns about the phone conversation. The Lying "shifty" Adam Schiff immediately shut down the questioning because he said he was not going to permit revealing the name of the whistleblower.
By late
#15050558
Hindsite wrote:
Trump did not demand anything, he just asked for a favor.

You are sounding like the lying "shifty" Adam Schiff and it was LTC Vindman who lied when he said it was a demand or order.





He made an offer Ukraine couldn't refuse, just like any other mob boss.


The facts are not actually in question here. Aid was shut off, and the threat was it would stay shut off until Trump got what he wanted. Which was a fake investigation to help him get elected.

Ukraine is in a war, losing all American support was an existential threat.

What you are selling (badly) is a Russian disinformation op that has been debunked repeatedly.
By Hindsite
#15050568
late wrote:He made an offer Ukraine couldn't refuse, just like any other mob boss.

There you go with the lying "shifty" Adam Schiff's tale that he later called just a parody.

late wrote:The facts are not actually in question here. Aid was shut off, and the threat was it would stay shut off until Trump got what he wanted. Which was a fake investigation to help him get elected.

Those are not the facts. Those are part of the made up mob boss tale of the lying "shifty" Adam Schiff. All aid had not been shut off. It had been provided in 2017 and 2018 even more than under Obama. The aid was only delayed in 2019 for 55 days so President Trump could see if other EU nations, like Germany, would provide more aid and to size up the new Ukrainian President to see if he was going to be able to form his parliamentary government and would investigate the corruption as he had promised during his campaign.

The new President did not even know any aid was being delayed at the time President Trump had the nice congratulatory phone conversation with him. President Trump made no threat or demand during that call, but politely asked for a favor, if it was possible, in determining any role Ukraine had in the 2016 election that put our nation through a lot. And toward the end of the call, President Trump asked President Zelenskyy if it was possible to have his new prosecutor look into investigating the Bidens in connection with the Ukrainian energy company, since many people wanted to know about it. The point is, Joe Biden was conflicted in the conduct of U.S. policy toward Ukraine the moment his son joined the board of directors of Ukraine’s second-largest privately owned natural gas producer. None of that had anything to do with President Trump getting reelected, since he already knew that if Joe Biden became the Democrat nominee, he had an easy win, because Biden did very poorly in his previous attempts to run for President and only became Vice President because Obama picked him over Hillary Clinton.

late wrote:Ukraine is in a war, losing all American support was an existential threat.

President Trump made no such threat. And as President Zelenskyy stated publicly, he did not feel pressured to do anything. Even Ambassador Sonderland testified that President Trump stated that he did not want anything but Presient Zelensky to do the right thing as he had promised during his campaign. President Trump even said, "No quid pro quo."

late wrote:What you are selling (badly) is a Russian disinformation op that has been debunked repeatedly.

That is left-wing media fake news. Even if it is Russian disinformation, it has not been debunked sufficiently for many of us, so it needs to be investigated just like their disinformation about President Trump being a Russian asset and colluding with the Russians to win an election. Hillary Clinton has even said that one white female Democrat candidate for president is a Russian asset. I don't think anyone takes that seriously, but they certainly did when it was alleged against President Trump after he beat Hillary like a drum. You Democrats are big hypocrites.
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15050769
late wrote:Let's face the ugly, you don't believe that crap, neither does anyone else.

Gaslighting won't work. The State Department doesn't need to do joint ventures with George Soros. They are better served staying away from such polarizing figures. The fact is that it appears Soros found a way to bribe Biden and the State Department while leaving himself with the cover of stamping out corruption. How could he be corrupt? He had an NGO to stamp out corruption co-funded by the US State Department. How could he possibly be corrupt?

Hindsite wrote:That is left-wing media fake news. Even if it is Russian disinformation, it has not been debunked sufficiently for many of us, so it needs to be investigated just like their disinformation about President Trump being a Russian asset and colluding with the Russians to win an election. Hillary Clinton has even said that one white female Democrat candidate for president is a Russian asset. I don't think anyone takes that seriously, but they certainly did when it was alleged against President Trump after he beat Hillary like a drum. You Democrats are big hypocrites.

What do you think of the timeline? I think this all goes back to Soros at this point. Soros is actually banned from a number of countries. The dude is like a James Bond villain.
By late
#15050787
blackjack21 wrote:
Gaslighting won't work.




That's not what our intelligence agencies said. Or the FBI, or the Republican Senate report, or several other intelligence agencies.

When you are over the top blatantly gaslighting the country, accusing someone else of doing it is really not a good look for you.

But Putin loves ya.
By late
#15050788
late wrote:That's not what our intelligence agencies said. Or the FBI, or the Republican Senate report, or several other intelligence agencies.

When you are over the top blatantly gaslighting the country, accusing someone else of doing it is really not a good look for you.

But Putin loves the people that he finds useful..

User avatar
By blackjack21
#15050854
late wrote:That's not what our intelligence agencies said. Or the FBI, or the Republican Senate report, or several other intelligence agencies.

The bottom line is that Putin outplayed Bush and Obama--especially Obama. The establishment whining on and on about it is pointless. They lost against Putin, and they lost the trust of the American people. More "Russia! Russia! Russia!" is not going to endear them to anyone. They are arrogant losers whom we could happily do without.

late wrote:But Putin loves ya.

Isn't that nice. Putin doesn't worry me. Xi Jinping does.
By late
#15050858
blackjack21 wrote:
The bottom line is that Putin outplayed Bush and Obama--especially Obama. The establishment whining on and on about it is pointless. They lost against Putin, and they lost the trust of the American people. More "Russia! Russia! Russia!" is not going to endear them to anyone. They are arrogant losers whom we could happily do without.


Isn't that nice. Putin doesn't worry me. Xi Jinping does.



Amazing how Putin has Trump in his pocket, and you talk about Bush and Obama.

Back to the real world...

The Magnitsky Act hit Putin where it really hurts. That's when and why he decided to hit back hard. And it worked, he put his guy into the Oval Office.

Xi is manageable. He needs us as much as we need him. That puts a hard limit on shennanigans over the short to medium run.

But several years from now, finding a negotiated way to deal with China's rising power is going to be quite tricky. There was a book, about a year ago, about that, and he talked about how unusual it is to pull off a peaceful transition of hegemony. Wish I could remember the name of it.
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By blackjack21
#15050861
late wrote:Amazing how Putin has Trump in his pocket, and you talk about Bush and Obama.

Bush and Shaakashvili fucked up in Georgia--interestingly, Shaakashvili ended up moving from Georgia to Ukraine, where he became governor of the Odessa Oblast. Carpetbagging is pretty strange in Eastern Europe.

Obama fucked up royally, but then he was a left-handed bisexual cocaine user, so he wasn't all that hard to beat. Putin easily beat back Obama's gay initiative, and scoffed at Obama's "tough guy" and "bored kid" remarks.

The bottom line is that Western Europe is dependent upon Russian gas. Economically, Russia is weak compared to the West. However, Western strength depends upon Russian natural gas.

late wrote:And it worked, he put his guy into the Oval Office.

I'm sure Putin appreciates your praises.
By late
#15050869
blackjack21 wrote:
The bottom line is...



That wasn't entirely wrong.

The bottom line is we don't elect guys that have experience in foreign affairs anymore. The last guy that was good at it was Ike. Been a while.

Russia being Russia, they were going to get a strong man ruler. America doesn't do Marshall Plans anymore. But we still want to do good. It's easy to help if you fork over tons of money. And it's fiendishly hard if you don't.

There is a clear line between the way Putin acted before Magnitsky, and the way he's acted since then.
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