J K Rowling under attack - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15057054
B0ycey wrote:Whether you think the differences are contrived or not is irrelevant. You cannot alter a definition from the Oxford dictionary so I don't know how you have come to the conclusion this is "made up". Ultimately there is a difference between the two words and ultimately that difference is the confusion. Sex is biological and Gender is cultural. So in English law if you behave, act and do specific actions you can legally change your gender. Why? Because you are ultimately changing your behaviour to fit in the cultural narrative of what it is to be "female". And perhaps JK should have researched her defence better if she wants to defend people with ignorant views - or face a backlash. Because I see no harm in addressing someone as female/male - or the state I live in accepting this difference either - as it doesn't affect my life at all.

And this is, in a nutshell, why George Orwell is indeed not just every leftist's favorite leftist, but also every rightwinger's favorite rightwinger.
By Rich
#15057057
I've been on camps where quite a few of the guys, have put on dresses. I never felt the urge myself, obviously no one felt it was disrespectful to women, but no one thought they had become women. Similarly if a guy want's to blacken up his face and put on a Rasta wig, there should be no problem. However as lefties have told us over and over again, race does not exist outside of people's imagination, therefore if someone identifies as Black or Afro-American, he is Black, he is Afro- American.
#15057127
Pants-of-dog wrote:I see the usual people have ignored the difference between sex and gender, also as per usual.


Sex is what you're born as, man or woman, and gender is who/what you like to have sex with, amirite? :?:

I agree with those who say you can't switch your sex. Men, for instance, can't have periods or babies.

I think it's super bad how healthcare today is very quick to support transitioning kids. It's even worse that they medicate children to block their puberty, operate surgery and generally tell them the lie that it is possible to change their sex. I think this borders on child abuse.

I'm all fine using whatever pronoun a person might obsess over because I'm not an asshole - even though I'd probably figure that's some self-indulgent woman/dude right here - but I'm not fine with trans activists threatening gender-critical feminists, or people who think they're women - when they're not - feeling fine putting themselves in women-only spaces.

I'm not ok with sharing changing rooms with people with dicks who claim they women. And in the U.K., with the Gender Recognition Act, anyone can claim they are a woman and be that, the end. That's not cool.

I think gender-critical feminists would be more supportive of trans people if they created a separate space for themselves, rather than encroaching into ours, often to our opposition, and are absolutely fine with it. And then tell us we're bigots for not feeling safe enough to share our safe spaces with their dicks.

Also, autogynephilia is a thing.

Anyway, identity/queer politics for the most part bore the hell out of me. Words like CIS, heteronormativity, non-binary etc. make me cringe.

I also hate that people think labeling us as CIS or TERF when we don't accept those labels really expect a positive response. Especially when this shit comes from men.

The end.
#15057181
Julian658 wrote:OK!!! 8) 8) 8) That was not that hard! Right?



Listen to a fellow trans woman here. This is what she has to say about JK Rowling. Start around two minutes.
A Trans woman talks about JK Rowling


All of this is irrelevant.

—————————

Crantag wrote:The difference between sex and gender: 'Sex' is Anglo-Saxon (Olde English) and 'gender' is French.

Kinda like 'cook' and 'chef', or 'greeting' and 'reception'.

That's the difference between 'sex' and 'gender'.


No. That is merely the difference in etymology between the two words, and does not discuss the fact that these two words describe two different observable and verifiable things.

Crantag wrote:I have quite the affinity for goats. They are interesting animals.

I think I would like to try out being a goat for a day, tomorrow.

I expect you all to reference me likewise.


If people who identified as goats were as common as trans people, had to deal with the same historical and modern oppression that trans people have, and impacted my life as much as trans people (i.e. no impact other than being good friends and family), this comparison would be valid.

Since these are not the same for the two groups being compared, this comparison merely trivialises the experience of trans people.

skinster wrote:Sex is what you're born as, man or woman, and gender is who/what you like to have sex with, amirite? :?:


No, that would be sex and sexual orientation.

I agree with those who say you can't switch your sex. Men, for instance, can't have periods or babies.


Some people who do identify as men do have periods and babies.

Regardless of whether or not we accept their self identification, this is a fact.

I think it's super bad how healthcare today is very quick to support transitioning kids. It's even worse that they medicate children to block their puberty, operate surgery and generally tell them the lie that it is possible to change their sex. I think this borders on child abuse.


Since the use of hormone therapies and whatnot are done under the care of a team of medical professionals, it would be difficult to argue that these doctors are are all teaming up to hurt kids.

I'm all fine using whatever pronoun a person might obsess over because I'm not an asshole - even though I'd probably figure that's some self-indulgent woman/dude right here - but I'm not fine with trans activists threatening gender-critical feminists, or people who think they're women - when they're not - feeling fine putting themselves in women-only spaces.


TERFs threaten trans people too. Neither are acceptable.
#15057191
Pants-of-dog wrote:
If people who identified as goats were as common as trans people, had to deal with the same historical and modern oppression that trans people have, and impacted my life as much as trans people (i.e. no impact other than being good friends and family), this comparison would be valid.



LOL, if there were a few more people that that self identified as goats you would expect people at large to treat them as goats??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :knife: :knife: :knife: POD, this is not how you treat mental illness. IF a schizophrenic woman tells she is a goat I send her to a psychiatrist. I do not play along with her psychosis.

Since the use of hormone therapies and whatnot are done under the care of a team of medical professionals, it would be difficult to argue that these doctors are are all teaming up to hurt kids.


POD: Do you know that the physician that designed and promoted frontal lobotomies won the Nobel prize in medicine? Those Docs in the UK are a bunch of SJWs. Like you they have no ability to discern reality because they are blinded by ideology.

POD, I had some admiration for you because you are a Marxist. However, you SJW tendency is not to be admired.
#15057202
Julian658 wrote:LOL, if there were a few more people that that self identified as goats you would expect people at large to treat them as goats??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :knife: :knife: :knife: POD, this is not how you treat mental illness. IF a schizophrenic woman tells she is a goat I send her to a psychiatrist. I do not play along with her psychosis.


If you think that is what I said, then you misunderstood.

I am not saying they should be treated as goats.

I am saying that @Crantag‘s comparison is not valid.

POD: Do you know that the physician that designed and promoted frontal lobotomies won the Nobel prize in medicine? Those Docs in the UK are a bunch of SJWs. Like you they have no ability to discern reality because they are blinded by ideology.


If you had reality on your side, you would not do things like ignore the factual differences between sex and gender.
#15057230
Pants-of-dog wrote:If you think that is what I said, then you misunderstood.

I am not saying they should be treated as goats.

I am saying that @Crantag‘s comparison is not valid.


OK, why is the comparison not valid?

If you had reality on your side, you would not do things like ignore the factual differences between sex and gender.


OK,let's play that game.The reality is that in 99% of humans gender and sex are in the same direction. Gender dysphoria is present in a small number of people with 40% plus suicide attempts. That the rate of suicide is that high should tell you it is a psychological issue. SJWs like you say that if they are freely accepted they will not try suicide. That is not the reality. They continue to be miserable after hormones and surgery. Many often try to go back to their baseline. NOt even Jews in captivity or blacks in slavery had that rate of suicide.

You say you are a straight male. Would you have sex with a transgender woman? Yes or no?
#15057307
Julian658 wrote:OK, why is the comparison not valid?


I literally just explained that.

OK,let's play that game.The reality is that in 99% of humans gender and sex are in the same direction. Gender dysphoria is present in a small number of people with 40% plus suicide attempts. That the rate of suicide is that high should tell you it is a psychological issue. SJWs like you say that if they are freely accepted they will not try suicide. That is not the reality. They continue to be miserable after hormones and surgery.


They continue to have high suicide rates because they still deal with transphobia even after hormones and surgery.

Many often try to go back to their baseline.


How many? Provide a link with a number or percentage.

Not even Jews in captivity or blacks in slavery had that rate of suicide.


You do not know that.

You say you are a straight male. Would you have sex with a transgender woman? Yes or no?


I am married and monogamous. I would not have sex with anyone other than my beloved.
#15057339
Pants-of-dog wrote:I literally just explained that.


Yeah, you said: If people who identified as goats were as common as trans people, had to deal with the same historical and modern oppression that trans people have, and impacted my life as much as trans people (i.e. no impact other than being good friends and family), this comparison would be valid.

That is incredibly bizarre POD. You admit you would make the claim legit if there were more of them. :knife: :knife: :knife:

Why are you doing this to yourself??



They continue to have high suicide rates because they still deal with transphobia even after hormones and surgery.


40% is astronomical POD. They have psych issues that you cannot imagine. It must not be easy having a penis when all you want is a vagina.

I am married and monogamous. I would not have sex with anyone other than my beloved.


OK, if you were single. Would you date a transgender woman?
#15057341
Julian658 wrote:Yeah, you said: If people who identified as goats were as common as trans people, had to deal with the same historical and modern oppression that trans people have, and impacted my life as much as trans people (i.e. no impact other than being good friends and family), this comparison would be valid.

That is incredibly bizarre POD. You admit you would make the claim legit if there were more of them. :knife: :knife: :knife:

Why are you doing this to yourself??


Feel free to explain how I am incorrect.

40% is astronomical POD. They have psych issues that you cannot imagine. It must not be easy having a penis when all you want is a vagina.


Did you just make this number up?

And I am still waiting for your evidence that a significant percentage of trans people regret their surgery.

OK, if you were single. Would you date a transgender woman?


Irrelevant.
#15057355
Pants-of-dog wrote:Feel free to explain how I am incorrect.


Do you know what is normal? It is not normal when a biological male feels he is a woman? By the same token it is not normal if a male feels he is a goat. You criterion to reject the goat example is that it is not as common as transgenderism. That is bizarre!


More than 40% of transgenders try suicide. This is well known.

The percent that wants to detransition is variable, but the fact that they exist should tell you this is a psych problem.


POD: If you refuse to date a transgender woman with a penis you will be labeled as transphobic. Are you OK with that?
#15057361
@Julian658

Not only do you not have any arguments, but you ignore any actual evidence that challenges your statements and also ignore requests for any evidence that might challenge your preconceptions.

This contradicts your stated claim that you are here to learn.

More importantly, I am not learning anything from you.

Have a good day.
#15057362
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, that would be sex and sexual orientation.


Gender is basically how you identify, regardless of biological reality.

There's probably more people in the world who think they're talking to god than there are trans people. Should we lie to them too and say this is real, because they say so? Schizophrenics are usually treated in a way to lessen or eliminate their delusions, why isn't the same applied to people with gender dysphoria?

Some people who do identify as men do have periods and babies.


They're women. They can identify as a goat like Crantag sometimes is, but would still be women. Because men can't have babies, no matter how they identify.

If you were to use the language of 'transmen', you might have a point tho.

Regardless of whether or not we accept their self identification, this is a fact.


How someone identifies isn't a fact, it's an opinion, if it deviates from the sex they were born into.

Since the use of hormone therapies and whatnot are done under the care of a team of medical professionals, it would be difficult to argue that these doctors are are all teaming up to hurt kids.


Perhaps it's not about hurting kids but making money. This is an industry right now, just look how quickly it got popular within healthcare. If you believe that's due to altruism from people in charge, that's sweet, but I don't believe they have the best interest of children at heart.

Either way, I'd offer psychology for many years at a minimum, not hormone treatment that could ruin your life forever, you know in case you change your mind at 16 that you don't really feel like XX or XY anymore.

And again, I really just do not understand how anyone can identify as the opposite sex. I'm still struggling to understand what a woman is meant to be. Seems most these days associate being a woman with putting on a dress and acting feminine, or being a man as having facial hair or whatever, when there's obviously much more.

TERFs threaten trans people too. Neither are acceptable.


You use misogynistic language like "TERFs" too. Why not refer to us as feminists who accept material reality? :D

It is weird when men tell women who the threat is. Instead, try considering the fear women have with sharing their spaces. And it's certainly not women who are a threat to transpeople, but nearly always men.

And also, transpeople aren't all massive victims; I've read stories of transwomen raping women, taking over their sports and other competitions, being perfectly ok with threatening to kill "TERFs", punching radical feminists out (in London) for their politics, as well as myself being threatened by a transwoman (the same transwoman who shouted down rape survivor Rose McGowan at her book event in NYC, and who then turned out to be a serial abuser of young women).

Your solidarity here seems one-sided and that's sad. Women are abused, raped and murdered by men every day and instead of considering their fears, you'll call them TERFs and bigots. To me, it'd be the equivalent of calling people like you who believe people can change their sex as "TIDBs" (Trans Inclusive Delusional Bastards). But I wouldn't do that because that's lame. And I like a chat. :D

This whole debate to me would work much better if a) people accepted the difference in opinion and didn't call people TERFs/bigots for disagreeing and b) transwomen would back away from encroaching in women's spaces, and c) maybe transpeople looked into creating their own spaces (where I'm pretty sure they'd get 100 per cent support from radical feminists).
#15057381
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Julian658

Not only do you not have any arguments, but you ignore any actual evidence that challenges your statements and also ignore requests for any evidence that might challenge your preconceptions.

This contradicts your stated claim that you are here to learn.

More importantly, I am not learning anything from you.

Have a good day.


No need to get up in a tizzy POD. It seems that you would never date a transgender woman. Why?
#15057405
skinster wrote:Gender is basically how you identify, regardless of biological reality.

There's probably more people in the world who think they're talking to god than there are trans people. Should we lie to them too and say this is real, because they say so? Schizophrenics are usually treated in a way to lessen or eliminate their delusions, why isn't the same applied to people with gender dysphoria?


I do not understand how the number of people is relevant.

Anyway, I do not think gender dysphoria is technically a delusion. There is a difference between being aware of one’s own biology and being dissatisfied with it, and not actually being able to recognise their own biological reality. Dysphoria would be the former and delusion would be the latter.

They're women. They can identify as a goat like Crantag sometimes is, but would still be women. Because men can't have babies, no matter how they identify.

If you were to use the language of 'transmen', you might have a point tho.


You can use whatever words you like, and refuse to accept the way they self-identify, but it does not change the fact that they identify that way.

How someone identifies isn't a fact, it's an opinion, if it deviates from the sex they were born into.


I am not sure that is a the case.

If that were the case, gender identity would be completely cultural and without a biological basis, but there does seem to be such a basis in neurology.

Perhaps it's not about hurting kids but making money. This is an industry right now, just look how quickly it got popular within healthcare. If you believe that's due to altruism from people in charge, that's sweet, but I don't believe they have the best interest of children at heart.


Regulatory policies, like deciding which treatments are best and should be supported, are usually done by committees that represent a broad spectrum of stakeholders.

Even if we assume that the majority of the medical professionals are in cahoots about treating trans kids, this conspiracy would have to extend to insurance companies, patients interest groups, government, and a myriad of other groups.

While I agree that it would be rational if it could be shown that all these groups profit, that is a difficult claim to support.

Either way, I'd offer psychology for many years at a minimum, not hormone treatment that could ruin your life forever, you know in case you change your mind at 16 that you don't really feel like XX or XY anymore.


Please provide evidence for the claim that hormone treatment will have lifelong negative impacts. Thank you.

You use misogynistic language like "TERFs" too. Why not refer to us as feminists who accept material reality? :D


Sorry, it was a word I picked up from my trans accepting radical feminist female friends.

I will not bother to tell these women that they are supposedly misogynist.

It is weird when men tell women who the threat is. Instead, try considering the fear women have with sharing their spaces. And it's certainly not women who are a threat to transpeople, but nearly always men.


Since I never told you who the threat is or implied that anyone except you get to decide that, this criticism does not seem to apply to me.

I completely support each individual in getting to decide that for themselves.
#15057412
I tend to think the discussion might break it usual trend to actually critically examine how identities are formed. Not a description of what we observed but an intelligible explanation in general which can accommodate transgender identities which seem to confound the naturalization of such an identity. Even in the present explanations with terms like cisgender is often too crude a view of congruency between a normative sense of man and woman and ones personal sense of it.

I think as long as its incomprehensible and attempts to situate it are so crude that they don’t really explain as much as attempt to classify its a very wtf situation all round unfortunately. Not that certain political debates can’t still persist in spite of a lack of adequate ideas.

Its a big problem of finding an adequate psychological method that reconciles the individual as part of but still distinct from the social whole. As the individual identity which precedes social ties is nonexistent but identity isn’t so simple as to be crudely reduced to social roles otherwise one couldn’t explain the incongruenty between an oppressive hegemony and real existing persons/subjects.
#15057465
Wellsy wrote:I tend to think the discussion might break it usual trend to actually critically examine how identities are formed. Not a description of what we observed but an intelligible explanation in general which can accommodate transgender identities...


Great post Wellsy. But this quote highlights everyones confusion I think. And it is great to see that you are aware of the problem where others fail terribly.

I care little on this issue outside PoFo, but when you read the usual shit on it, I do find people forget the bigger picture. Feminism is about equal opportunity and trans rights is about acceptance. To suggest that both movements conflate or are negative to one another is utter confusion on what is being asked from society. Trans people know their biological reality. Which is why they do not like being addressed by their sex but gender. Legally in the UK there is a number of things you have to go through in order to change your gender anyways. This isn't about some guy deciding that today he is female so he can perve in the ladies toilets. And a goat is a species not a gender anyway, although I care little if someone wants to be called a goat. You want to be a goat and chew grass and sleep in a field, who is stopping you? Not me I can assure you.

Which now leads me to this quote.

Gender is cultural and sex is biological. Nobody is asking for people to address that chomosomes, sex organs or biological realities as different genders. They ask that people accept others to how they feel inside and how they behave in society. In reality this is a small ask. And it should be. But whilst others seem more interested in biological reality they forget how identities are formed. An intelligible explanation of this of course is something I have already brought forward in another post. Is Juliet from "Romeo and Juliet" male or female? Culturally she is a female played by a biological male. Although nobody expects to see two men kissing on screen when it is televised. Which means we accept the character as female whether that character has a cock and ballsack between her legs or not. So why is it when somebody behaves, acts and dresses as a female/male do we turn against these factors in deciding what pronouns are acceptable?
User avatar
By AFAIK
#15057581
@Crantag
Are beef and cows the same thing because of their linguistic origins? Pork and pigs?
#15057591
roscoe wrote:She says that those with XY chromosomes are Male and those with XX chromosomes are women . She defended a woman who got fired for saying that. Now the left that she championed so strongly has turned on her.



If that is what JKR said, then she shouldn't be condemned for supporting someone of her own sex, spelling out scientifically proven facts.

From a woman who has, by all accounts, ventured to the 'other side', :lol: it's refreshing to know that she has finally acknowledged reality by waking up & smelling the coffee.
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