Letter from Seattle Police Chief to Local Business Owners - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15109708
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A very honest, clear letter.

Is it appropriate to bar police the use of the tools mentioned?

Will looting and other kinds of violent crime in Seattle rise now that the police are not allowed to use appropriate equipment to break up violent riots?

Should police try to stop violent riots without the use of those tools, or choke holds, in which case they would presumably need to beat people down with clubs and shields, or if that is also not allowed, they would need to walk up to people and politely ask them to stop looting or burning? I think it's pretty untenable and that Seattle's police chief has made the right call here.

If violent crime does rise in Seattle, is it conservative's fault and not the fault of the people who are banning the use of these law enforcement tools?
#15109713
Godstud wrote:It's a false and cowardly claim.

Simply put, unless they can use violent methodology, or lethal force, they can't enforce laws. :knife:

So you're saying that a violent mob can be quelled without using pepper spray, tear gas etc.? Can you suggest a method for how this would be attempted?
#15109714
There are many ways to prevent a protest from becoming violent, without the use of force. Often, police presence is an instigator to violence.

Of course, stick with your stupid narrative that force is the only way. It's dumb. It suits you and the right-wing reactionary attitude.

It's simply an excuse not to try alternative, non-violent methods.
#15109715
Godstud wrote:There are many ways to prevent a protest from becoming violent, without the use of force. Often, police presence is an instigator to violence.

Of course, stick with your stupid narrative that force is the only way. It's dumb. It suits you and the right-wing reactionary attitude.

It's simply an excuse not to try alternative, non-violent methods.

I am only asking you to name even one method that might be used to break up a violent mob that doesn't involve pepper spray, tear gas or the use of similar implements.

If you are saying that it is the police presence which makes a protest turn violent in the first place, now that they aren't present, there would (according to you) be no violence?

That makes two very simple questions.
#15109717
The most important method is to make it so they don't become riots. Helping to organize safe protests and working with protestors would be a good start. Most people are not there to "riot".

Most of the riots have start because of police brutality. The very reason that Seattle had to make laws was because police were abusing and brutalizing people.

Police being present is one thing. Being there expecting a riot, in riot gear is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Very complex answers to simple questions, but when you only consider violence, as right-wingers like you do, you don't look further.
#15109723
You right-wing reactionaries can't even get your facts straight. :knife: The above bullshit you posted is FALSE.

A St. Louis man has been charged with murder in the death of retired St. Louis police officer David Dorn, who was shot during a pawn shop burglary in last week's protests in the city.

Stephan Cannon, 24, of St. Louis was charged with first-degree murder, first-degree robbery, first-degree burglary, three counts of armed criminal action and one count of being a felon in possession of a firearm, Circuit Attorney Kimberly Gardner said in a statement released on Twitter Sunday.

After Dorn got to the pawn shop, Cannon can be seen in surveillance video footage "approaching the corner of the store" with a gun in his hand, according to the probable cause document released by police.
"It is apparent from the surveillance that at the time the shots were fired the defendant was the only person standing at that corner," according to the document.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/s ... index.html
#15109736
Godstud wrote:The most important method is to make it so they don't become riots. Helping to organize safe protests and working with protestors would be a good start. Most people are not there to "riot".

Generally, it is up to protesters to petition for a permit, identify where they will be, estimate how many people will show up, how many police will be needed to ensure order, etc.

The so-called "peaceful protests" have generally been unlawful assemblies tolerated by the Democratic party establishment, because they seem to have calculated that it will have political benefits for them.

I think they have miscalculated. We will know soon enough.
#15109737
Godstud wrote:You right-wing reactionaries can't even get your facts straight. :knife: The above bullshit you posted is FALSE.

A St. Louis man has been charged with murder in the death of retired St. Louis police officer David Dorn, who was shot during a pawn shop burglary in last week's protests in the city.

Stephan Cannon, 24, of St. Louis was charged with first-degree murder, first-degree robbery, first-degree burglary, three counts of armed criminal action and one count of being a felon in possession of a firearm, Circuit Attorney Kimberly Gardner said in a statement released on Twitter Sunday.

After Dorn got to the pawn shop, Cannon can be seen in surveillance video footage "approaching the corner of the store" with a gun in his hand, according to the probable cause document released by police.
"It is apparent from the surveillance that at the time the shots were fired the defendant was the only person standing at that corner," according to the document.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/s ... index.html

Other than it eventually getting covered by CNN, I'm not seeing what is wrong about what I posted. He was trying to defend the shop from a looter without the usual riot dispersal equipment and one of the looters killed him.

Dorn, 77, was killed when he responded to an alarm at the pawnshop during the early morning hours of June 2, the St. Louis Police Department said last week. The retired officer was providing security for the store. About 55 businesses in the city were burglarized and had property damage that night, city Police Chief John Hayden told reporters last week.
The looting and destruction followed protests after the death of George Floyd, the African American man killed two weeks ago during an arrest in Minneapolis.
#15109743
blackjack21 wrote:Generally, it is up to protesters to petition for a permit, identify where they will be, estimate how many people will show up, how many police will be needed to ensure order, etc.

The so-called "peaceful protests" have generally been unlawful assemblies tolerated by the Democratic party establishment, because they seem to have calculated that it will have political benefits for them.


1. Protest organizers have no responsibility to decide the amount of police forces required to ensure order, although they could (and in many cases should) deploy some kind of volunteer order management units themselves, to prevent their own activity from sabotages from all possible sides, be it more emotionally unstable protesters, anti-protesters who oppose the protests, or the police who happen to take the matter personally.

2. The peacefulness and lawfulness of assembly are actually independent of each other. On many occasions, it's the unfairness from the authority or establishment that provoke protests. When the said authority are particularly intolerant to dissent (e.g. China), they often move to declare any assembly that might make them look bad illegal. It is absurd to imply unlawful assemblies being equal to violence, and it is even more absurd to slander whatever political group by suggesting they purposefully tolerate or endorse protests just to make the establishment look bad. This really sounds like truth distortion to me.

EDIT:
While the Member posting the quoted text often comments against China, he often sounds pro-establishment or pro-government of his own place, and often speaks against those who attempt challenge the dark side of the established order (again, at his own place). Unfortunately, such posts often resemble pro-China propaganda, just with different subjects. I admit that I am slightly angry whenever I see them.
#15109762
Yeah, I’m okay with police not pepper spraying people for the protection of property.

End game - we want people respecting property. We want respectful people.

It’s a harder scenario to achieve I know, but we were there once. We can get there again.

Spank your children folks.
#15109766
Patrickov" wrote:While the Member posting the quoted text often comments against China, he often sounds pro-establishment or pro-government of his own place, and often speaks against those who attempt challenge the dark side of the established order (again, at his own place). Unfortunately, such posts often resemble pro-China propaganda, just with different subjects. I admit that I am slightly angry whenever I see them.
Some Members don't say what they mean and are weak-kneed old women. Some members hide behind feeble words like the cowards that they are, and lie about things, because they are racist assholes. I am amused at such idiocy, whenever I see it.''


Cowardly shit.
Last edited by Godstud on 25 Jul 2020 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
#15109769
Godstud wrote:Some Members don't say what they mean and are weak-kneed old women. Some members hide behind feeble words like the cowards that they are, and lie about things, because they are racist assholes. I am amused at such idiocy, whenever I see it.


Just curious, the quote comparing post #15109736 to pro-China propaganda was mine, but the above post said it's uttered by someone else.

I hope I am not sounding too like someone else that this Honourable Gentleman thought I was a bot of the said person.
#15109771
I amended it, but stand by what I said. If you want to critique things from other posts and thread, then you're just trying to distract and stir shit.


@ness31 Normally, I am not against this, either, but it seems like the police are incapable of doing it without excessive force and brutality, so they had to have those options removed.
#15109777
Either you discipline your kin, or the state will do it for you.

In the old days, that distinction was so obvious.

These days, we don’t even know what discipline means.

So one way or another someone is going to get a hiding. We can pretend the past won’t catch up to us, but it will, and it does, and it is.
#15109814
A judge issued an injunction against the city ordinance, so Seattle (probably) won't burn this weekend. It sounds like the mayor is actually against it too but got overruled by the city council. I'm a little relieved, even though I'm not from Seattle and all that; it was pretty cringe imagining the looters knowing ahead of time that the police weren't going to protect anything.

What appears to be have happened here is a bunch of gender studies radicals filled the city council and if the injunction can be kept in place for long enough, Seattle residents will presumably vote them out since they probably don't want their city destroyed.
#15109817
Godstud wrote:It's a false and cowardly claim.

Simply put, unless they can use violent methodology, or lethal force, they can't enforce laws. :knife:


How do you enforce laws without violence? Hand out tickets to masked people who refuse to ID and refuse to take the ticket?

The solution is to have very clear rules of engagement with the use of things like tear gas, and when cops do not follow them you reprimand them, including fines, suspensions, firing them or charging them with crimes. The solution isn't to ban non-lethal weapons. Seattle politicians are stupid idiots.

Stupid politicians, stupid cops, stupid protestors. The problem here is morons.
#15109848
Unthinking Majority wrote:The solution is to have very clear rules of engagement with the use of things like tear gas, and when cops do not follow them you reprimand them, including fines, suspensions, firing them or charging them with crimes. The solution isn't to ban non-lethal weapons. Seattle politicians are stupid idiots.
They already had those rules of engagement, but the police overstepped their rules, or completely ignored them, and did what they wanted. They engaged in police brutality and excessive force.

The politicians are not stupid. They see what was done and have to act in the interest of the public, even if it's unpopular to people like you.
#15109853
Godstud wrote:They already had those rules of engagement, but the police overstepped their rules, or completely ignored them, and did what they wanted. They engaged in police brutality and excessive force.

The politicians are not stupid. They see what was done and have to act in the interest of the public, even if it's unpopular to people like you.


Seattle politicians are stupid idiots.

Police overstep their rules because politicians allow them to. If they're held accountable, this wouldn't happen. Every police chief not doing their job needs to be fired. The state needs to bring the pain down on cops who break policy and the law. It starts at the top, with the mayor, the chief, and working its way down. Enough is enough. Banning tear gas won't solve the core problems.

Oh, and these stupid moron protestors who stay out past sunset all need to be fined or put in jail. Like go home you morons. If you don't believe that Seattle and Portland are the shitholes of America, go look at what's happening there right now. #CHAZforever
#15109857
Protesting is all about pushing the bounds of society, and protesters are NOT stupid for staying out past an unreasonable curfew imposed by a state unwilling to address the real problems.
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