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"It's the economy, stupid!"

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By Todd D.
#571516
Moved to the Economics and Capitalism forum
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By redcarpet
#571665
Well capitalism is an economy where all companies and land is privately owned. All.

Individualism for the already wealthy is encorouged and is individually beneficial,while inequality of wealth and income is synonomous with private ownership.

No country is capitalist now, the excesses and mass inequality was too destructive for people to accept once universal sufferage became a reality. Every country's economy now is a 'mixed economy'. or 'welfare state' or 'social democracy'. Whatever phrase you like. There are two capitalist economies you can have; State planned capitalism,which occurs in Fascism and market capitalism which occured in the early years of the industrial revolution in the 1800's, but was quickly abandoned in most Western nations by the 1890's.
Last edited by redcarpet on 22 Feb 2005 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
By Goranhammer
#571683
Positive aspect: Some people advance financially.

Negative aspect: Some people get left behind.

Everything else is just gravy.
By Einherjar
#571719
Other negative aspects include:

Other systems like democracy cannot be fulfilled because economical inequality brings about legal inequality.
The environment is largely ruined as it only second to the need to make capital and profits.
The large amounts of capital enables capitalism to have diffused propaganda creating a conservative society, destroying creativity and progressiveness.
Corporations with high capital monopolize certain sectors which become inefficient as there would be no competition.
In a capitalist society, usually the end justifies the means.. The end which is to gain capital, profits, justifies all sort of environmental and human exploitation.
The division gap between rich and poor always increases because the rich has a bigger chance to invest and thus gain profits than the poor.
Promotes multiculturism which in turn becomes monoculturalism as the economically strongest culture always wins in such system.

Many of positive aspects are overshadowed by the negative ones.
By Messiah
#571725
Positive aspect: Some people advance financially.

Negative aspect: Some people get left behind.


Do you consider the group of people that advance financially in capitalism greater than the ones that get left behind?

If you disagree with this statement, why would a person support capitalism if it is not in the interest of the majority?
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By Attila The Nun
#571741
Well, because the other people are horribly horribly biased against, here's basicallyt the pros and cons of capitalism.

Pros: mass amount of wealth is in the hands of people, classes are ever-changing, meritocracy encouraged, specialization and urbanization encouraged, unemployment is usually low, a mix of individualism and collectivism encouraged, arts and sciences encouraged (usually by private sources), globalization encouraged.

Cons: some people (usually people who have bad work ethic, but some perfectly good people) get lost in the dust and become poor. If mixed with a classist society can lead to an encouragement of hierarchy
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By catquas
#571750
Capitalism as opposed to what? A system can't have pros if it is not compared to an alternative.

Also, what is meant by capitalism? A minimalist state is a lot different from a mixed economy, and there are degrees of mixed economies. I doubt there is any state in existance which has not used the market for some things.
By Einherjar
#571762
mass amount of wealth is in the hands of people

mass amount of wealth in the hands of the few.

classes are ever-changing

demoracy not capitalism

meritocracy encouraged

democracy

unemployment is usually low

LOLL..unemployment is needed by capitalism to be competitive, to have a reserve work force and to keep wages low. Unemployment is biggest in capitalist free trade countries..

a mix of individualism and collectivism encouraged

again youre confusing democracy with capoitalism.

globalization encouraged

is this positive??? WTF?

I think youre confusing democracy with capitalism. Capitalism is an economical system..Its policies are only economic! You cant say capitalism is meritocratic as that has nothing to dot with it. Capitalism only sees the end, which is is higher profits and capital.
Free speech, meritocracy, individualism, etc.. are encouraged in a democratic society but capitalism doesnt give a shit about these things.

Capitalism as opposed to what? A system can't have pros if it is not compared to an alternative.

opposed to the dignity of humanity..[/quote]
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By Attila The Nun
#571781
mass amount of wealth in the hands of the few.


I won't deny class inequality, but I will deny that the poor are screwed under capitalism. Infact, they retain much wealth.

demoracy not capitalism


No, it's capitalism. In capitalism if someone is a good businessman, scientist, artist ete., he can change social classes.

democracy


Not necassarily, if you are good at what you do in capitalism you will get ahead because the market will pay more for people who are good at what they are doing.

LOLL..unemployment is needed by capitalism to be competitive, to have a reserve work force and to keep wages low. Unemployment is biggest in capitalist free trade countries..


Funny, because Free Trade has never existed entirely.

And it doesn't matter how much workers are paid. It matters how much it is worth on the market.

again youre confusing democracy with capoitalism.


Not necassarily. It requires a great mind to come up with an idea, but it requires a group effort to implement it.

I think youre confusing democracy with capitalism. Capitalism is an economical system..Its policies are only economic! You cant say capitalism is meritocratic as that has nothing to dot with it. Capitalism only sees the end, which is is higher profits and capital.


Yes it does, as I explained. And it has more to do with higher profits. Besides, it does not mean that other good things can come out of a profit-centric economic system.
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By Paradigm
#574919
Positive:
    Freedom to buy, sell, work, and trade without government telling you what to do
    Highest probablity of prosperity of any economic system
    Free market competition usually results in superior products at superior prices
    You can "vote with your dollar" by choosing which companies you want to support with your money
    Easier to find a job
    Opportunity to better one's socioeconomic status with hard work and innovation

Negative:
    Some people are more successful than others
    Government won't tell businesses what they have to pay you for working there
    Harder to leech off taxpayer money
    Profit motive sometimes hurts the environment(one of the few aspects of capitalism I think should be reformed)
    You have to live with the personal responsibility that comes with freedom
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By Ombrageux
#575055
Capitalism is not very good at giving everybody the same amount of bread.

Capitalism is very good at giving *a lot* of people PCs, vacuum cleaners, TVs, cars, stereos, washing machines, dishwashers, MP3 players, phones.. etc..

Capitalism is good (although I'm not sure on the specifics of how much welfare is needed etc.. but basically capitalism is good)
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By Le Rouge
#575058
Capitalism is very good at giving *a lot* of people PCs, vacuum cleaners, TVs, cars, stereos, washing machines, dishwashers, MP3 players, phones.. etc..

Tell that to the third world.
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By Ombrageux
#575124
Communism has failed just as much as capitalism in the 3rd World.

On the contrary, true capitalist 3rd worlders (South Korea, Taiwan) do far better than their communist counterparts. Meanwhile, countries who do adopt capitalist reform, such as China, Chile and the UK, boomed thereafter. Finally, countries with more socialistic economies, like India, have not been as succesful.

Broadly speaking, capitalism (whether social democratic or libertarian) is the way.
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By Le Rouge
#575134
1. Third world countries are capitalist with subsistence or single-crop economies - always because if they were socialist-states they would be second world countries.

2. Communism cannot exist within a state because it is the abolition of state and class.

3. There is no three but I don't like to make a list of numbers if I'm only going to right two things.
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By Ombrageux
#575260
Capitalism doesn't always make everyone rich. Political instability and civil can't be solved by any economic system (in the short term anyway).

Note that countries in East Asia, and even Latin America, are getting richer not poorer.
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By Todd D.
#575349
Note that countries in East Asia, and even Latin America, are getting richer not poorer

Also note that while Cuba has stagnated under Communism/Socialism, Chile and other Central American countries have continued to grow despite starting with a base much lower than Cuba started with.
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By Le Rouge
#575387
Perhaps it is not socialism fault but the adminstrations fault, those kinda of things happen when you can recall crappy leaders.
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By Noumenon
#575404
Pros: Healthy economy, better living standard for all, no coercion
Cons: While it provides, in my view, a satisfactory general level of happiness, it may not maximize happiness. The poor are made economically better off, but their inequality may hurt them socially

Einherjar wrote:mass amount of wealth in the hands of the few.


Agreed, but this is a pro, not a con. The great majority of wealth held by the rich minority is in the form of capital. Rather than have a "tragedy of the commons" where everyone owns this capital, relatively few people own it and have a strong interest in its health and growth. Because of well-maintained and efficient capital, the wealth of society is increased and everyone benefits.

LOLL..unemployment is needed by capitalism to be competitive, to have a reserve work force and to keep wages low. Unemployment is biggest in capitalist free trade countries..


There is no evidence that I know of that points to a conspiracy of capitalists to maintain high unemployment. In a truly free market, such a conspiracy would never hold together. The incentive for companies to cheat is too great, since if they can hire someone who contributes X value to the firm and pay him <X wages, they would make a nice profit.

The environment is largely ruined as it only second to the need to make capital and profits.


No, there is strong incentive to preserve the environment with the profit incentive. Land that is preserved well is worth more and can be sold for higher profit. A company that owns land will usually profit more in the long term if he maintains that land. For example, in the US something like 70% of the forests we had in 1607 have been preserved. Loggers replant and take care of the land, because that is necessary for long term viability as a company. Also, there is a strong incentive to minimize waste of natural resources. Finding ways to use fewer natural resources means less cost and more profit.

Compare this to the USSR, which devasted the environment due to tragedy of the commons.

The large amounts of capital enables capitalism to have diffused propaganda creating a conservative society, destroying creativity and progressiveness.


Did you just make this up off the top of your head? Capitalism is responsible for a huge amount of progression in science and technology, due to the profit incentive.

Corporations with high capital monopolize certain sectors which become inefficient as there would be no competition.


Socialism and mixed economies create inefficient state monopolies. And inefficient market monopolies are largely a myth. If you look at the records, "robber barons" and such actually contributed greatly to lowering the cost of their products and improving efficiency.

The division gap between rich and poor always increases because the rich has a bigger chance to invest and thus gain profits than the poor.


Doesn't matter, since the poor generally benefit from the investment and profits of capitalists. This is because the profit motive guides the rich to create the most efficient production possible. And with more efficient production comes more and better goods, which are consequently lowered in price due to the law of supply and demand. The poor are then able to afford cheaper and better goods and are better off.
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By redcarpet
#575433
"Doesn't matter, since the poor generally benefit from the investment and profits of capitalists."

Like in the USA where inequality in wealth and income is the worst in the world?

"Capitalism is responsible for a huge amount of progression in science and technology"

For the military, because more than 70% of scientists work for the military in the world.

"there is strong incentive to preserve the environment with the profit incentive."

American companies make higher profits than inother countries, and yet the USA pollutes more than any other nation and it's increasing while company tax is reducing.
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