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Early modern era & beginning of the modern era. Exploration, enlightenment, industrialisation, colonisation & empire (1492 - 1914 CE).
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By Kiroff
#964750
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Well I didn't expect that!
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By Red Star
#964768
I always expect the Spanish Inquisition. The Portugese on the other hand...
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By Mikolaj
#965044
What I want to know is: how did they know if you were a converso to begin with?
By Manuel
#965081
I assume you mean the European inquisition as a whole. If so, then thats a pretty fair estimate.

Most people make the mistake of thinking Spain is the only country which had an inquisition, despite the fact theirs was among the most moderate and mild inquisitions in Europe at that time.
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By Maxim Litvinov
#965093
The entire population of Europe was only about 50 million when the inquisition started up. Estimated total inquisition death toll = 40000.
By Manuel
#965095
The inquisition didn't only target Europeans. It existed in Northern Africa, the Holy Land.

Though, on looking at statistics, 40 million is way off. 50000 or so might be more realistic.
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By Truthseeker
#965126
The inquisition continued in the papal states until their destruction.

Considering centuries of existence I don't know how the population at its inception is relevant, even at 0 population growth that would have been the number of people in each generation.
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By Mikolaj
#965136
The entire population of Europe was only about 50 million when the inquisition started up. Estimated total inquisition death toll = 40000.


Stop crushing my warped view of the world! :knife:

What I don't get is: if you were a converso-or even a Jew in 1933 Germany, couldn't you just change your name or deny your relgion and practice in secret? How did the Inquisition know to come after you?
By Fernando
#965210
As you possibly know, Inquisition was founded in France in 13th century, targeting Albigens (Cathars). It extended throughout Europe, reaching Spain in the end of 15th century.

In the rest of Europe, it was installed and "uninstalled" several times, though the most usual way of repression was pogrom (St Bartholomew night, Catholic church burning in Netherlands), expulsion (several expulsions of Jews in France, England etc), witch hunt (Inquisition only killed some dozens) and exclusion (Catholics in UK up to 20th century and repression of Irish).

As said, the death toll of SPANISH Inquisition is around the tens of thousands (at most).

Talking only about Spain, most deaths happened in 16th and 17th century. The number of deaths in 18th and 19th (up to end around 1835) is very low.

The problem with Sp. Inquisition was that:

- It lasted for more than most similar institutions.
- It printed in the minds the hunt for the dissidents.
By Manuel
#965243
The reason the Spanish Inquisition is so well known is because of the growth of the Black Legend during the first colonial period. Powers jealous of Spanish power in the 16th and 17th century spread lies about a murderous inquisition, and cruel treatment of non-Christians in the new world. Of course, the whole thing about the supposed "Evil Church in the New World" can be debunked easily. In the British territories, a white race continued foward, and the Indians were wiped out. In Spanish territories, over 70% of the population is mestizo.

The Spanish Inquisition did kill more than other Inquisitions, but it was less severe than the other ones at the same time. Spain was only about two thirds or so Christian, making it the largest multi-cultural Christian kingdom at the time. When looking at how few of the Muslims or Jews actually were killed compared to their populations, the French,Italian, and Portuguese Inquisitions come into mind as much more deadly and restrictive.
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By Truthseeker
#965357
In the British territories, a white race continued foward, and the Indians were wiped out. In Spanish territories, over 70% of the population is mestizo.


In the British the natives were taken out of territory, sometimes involving violence and somethimes not.

Early on it was largely vacated by migration.

In Spainish territory, the Natives were enslaved by the hundreds of thousands and the Spanish soldiers (who had usually come witout wives) used there women for sex as they pleased, resulting in numerous mestizo children even as the natives were worked to death by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

There were also quite a few massacres there too.

more deadly and restrictive.


How can it be more restrictive than expulsion of all Jews and Muslims or forced conversion? :eh:
By Fernando
#965479
Well, the competition is tough. I admit Spain has a good place in the race:

- Germany: Cuius regio eius religio: You follow your Lord's religion or emigrate.

- England: Several Jews expulsions. Catholics discriminated up to 20th century. Cromwell policies.

- All Europe: Witch hunt.

- Netherlands: Church arson. How many Catholics remained in Net. in 17th century?

- France: St Bartholomew night: tens of thousands deaths in one night. Expulsions of Jews.

etc.
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By QatzelOk
#965492
So if the Spanish Inquisition killed 40 million out of a total of 50 million Europeans, all that were left were Jews and Danes.

No wonder the Mohammed cartoon thing kicked up such a fuss.
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By Truthseeker
#965541
So if the Spanish Inquisition killed 40 million out of a total of 50 million Europeans,


50 million at a time!.

The inquisition lasted many generations each providing a seperate set of 10's of millions of Europeans.

Your math has a faulty basis.
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By Mikolaj
#965545
Just for the record, I don't actually claim the Inquisition killed 40 million. It's more 0of a play on the Stalin thread(s) in this forum.

Though I'm sure the Inquisition must have killed thousands.

If you were a converso (Jew forced to convert to Christianity), how would the inquisition know that? COuldn't you just blend in and practice Judaisim in secret?

Anybody?
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By Truthseeker
#965667
how would the inquisition know that?


You had to be "accused"

I think merely being accused warranted certain penalties even in the absence of corroboration or proof.
By Manuel
#965716
The word "rasa" in Castilian or in Portuguese, meant a population of plants, animals or peoples who through inheritance possessed common characteristics. The Spanish did not regard the Tainos as a "race," not at least in the invidious pseudoscientific way that it was to be understood in the nineteenth century. They were simply "people," or members of a "nation," who could be conquered and enslaved.


This was not an uncommon belief. The act of enslaving the members of the conquered people was not an invention of the Spaniards into colonial America, and should not be treated as such.

What should be noted is that, unlike British or Dutch colonists, who killed any tan skinned person within their borders, the Spanish, Portuguese, and French gave their Native Americans a place in their society, despite it being a low one.

The scarcity of European women among the Conquistadores meant Spanish and Portuguese settlers and soldiers had extensive relations with indigenous women. Unlike English settlers of North America, who arrived as members of families, Iberian peninsula conquerors were for the most part single men. Large numbers of these men married native Americans which resulted in the emergence of a class whose parents were of mixed Iberian and Indian ancestry.


The Black Legend works to say that all the native women were raped. However, most native women willingly married their Spaniard "conquerors". The mestizo grew up in Spanish society, and learned Spanish. If they had been bastards, as you state, the liklihood is the mestizos would have grown up more tied to their native ways, and perhaps forget the idea of Spaniards completely.

The Black Legend further speaks about Catholic cruelty to the Americans.

Dominican clergy in the Caribbean region were concerned about the mistreatment of Tainos. In 1511, Antonio de Montesinos, a Dominican priest, denounced to his Spanish parishioners their treatment of Indians:

The Spanish monarchy was caught between religious demands to ameliorate the conditions of Indians, and settler demands that they be allowed to conduct their plantations as they saw fit. Religious leaders such as Father Montesinos—as early as the first decades of the sixteenth century—exerted sufficient pressure upon the monarchy to force implementation of new laws regarding the Indians. The Laws of Burgos endeavored to restrict punishment of Indians and guarantee them access to the clergy.

A few years before his death in 1566, las Casas addressed a memorandum to the King which reiterated the basic ideas of many clergy seeking to help Native Americans:

-All wars called conquests are unjust.
-The system of encomiendas is tyrannical.
-The King can not justify wars in the Americas against peaceful peoples.
-All gold and silver taken from the New World is stolen.
-Indians have a right to fight against invasion of their land by Spanish conquerors.

In 1680, the monarchy issued the "Leyes de Indias," which supported the idea of peaceful conversion of native Americans.


In 1511, Spain began to take actions to protect their slaves for mistreatment, nearly two centuries ahead of the North American colonists. Dominican protests eventually led to several laws protecting Native Americans from slave labour. In fact, before the 18th century even rolled around, Spain had enacted laws to protect native Americans, laws not enacted by the United States until the early 20th century.

The great evil Inquisition helped protect the rights of the dying Native American race.

Of seperate note, Spanish colonists were thus free to protest about their government. Name one other European country who allowed their peoples to critisize their king's or their country's way of running things?

The expulsion of the Jews in 1492 has often been quoted as an example of the Spaniards' religious intolerance. However, many other expulsions took place in Europe during the Middle Ages. Though the expulsion from Spain of at least 200,000 Jews was by far the largest and most significant, this can be explained by the fact that Spain had the largest Jewish community.

France 1182
England 1290
France 1306
Austria 1421
Crown of Aragon 1492


Many other countries were already well ahead of the Spaniards in their persecution of Jews. Spain was not the first, nor the last, to hold on to an inquisition, and it is merely cited as such due to the Black Legend.

The legend depicts the Spanish Inquisition as cruel and bloodthirsty. The Inquisition already existed in many European countries before it was established in Spain in 1480. It appeared in 1184, and torture was first used in 1252. That was a usual method in the medieval legal system, and its application was much more violent in the secular justice.


Sources:
http://www.catholicleague.org/catholici ... skych2.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/black-legend[/quote]
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By Truthseeker
#965816
If they had been bastards, as you state, the liklihood is the mestizos would have grown up more tied to their native ways


Only if the father abandoned them. :eh:

Anyway according to most accounts the native women didn't have quite the same reluctance towards sex out of wedlock you might expect, men having (if not marrying) multiple women were common.

In 1511, Spain began to take actions to protect their slaves for mistreatment, nearly two centuries ahead of the North American colonists. Dominican protests eventually led to several laws protecting Native Americans from slave labour.


Yep, and they imported Africans were possible because they could endure harder labor and were not considered quite the same as the natives.

In the north, only Africans were slaves.

The expulsion of the Jews in 1492 has often been quoted as an example of the Spaniards' religious intolerance. However, many other expulsions took place in Europe during the Middle Ages.


Don't forget the 1502 expulsion of Muslims!
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#965865
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